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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:42:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 16/12/2010 13:45:56
Originally by: Bhaal
If you have healthcare programs that hand out medical services like candy, guess what, ppl will abuse that.




And insurance companies denying people basic generic drugs that are needed for chronic conditions, that the individual has the insurance for, because they do not want to pay for them, all the while filling Vigra prescriptions so old men can ****, is a joke. I think you need to spend a little more time in the medical field, and hopefully not for similar reasons me and many others in the US the world deal with.

Originally by: Bhaal


It would be nice if we lived in a Gene Roddenberry world, but we do not, power & global policy making mean a lot to the top dogs, and if the USA is to slip from the top of the hill, someone else will be there to take the mantle, and it will not be your happy happy joy joy country. It could wind up being someone a lot more evil & secrative than the USA.


Ah yes, the we are the big dog on the block so nothing we do is wrong mentality, and if other people think we are wrong they can just deal with it. Laughing


Slade

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:51:00 - [392]
 

Edited by: Bhaal on 16/12/2010 14:16:03
Edited by: Bhaal on 16/12/2010 14:13:12
Quote:
Ah yes, the we are the big dog on the block so nothing we do is wrong mentality, and if other people think we are wrong they can just deal with it.



Where did I say the US government is infallable? Please point it out.

Bottom line is, in today's world, there is a top dog waving its **** in the face of everyone else, and at the monemt it IS the USA. If you no longer want the USA to be it, make your choice. There HAS to be one.

If you are going to try to tell me the world needs to change, and there should not be any superpowers or top dogs, go back to your Dr. for some more of these drugs you're taking. Wink

I never said the world and the USA are perfect in any way, however the framework in which I'm operating in is reality, where many of you are longing for a utopia that will not, and connot exist for a few more centuries, if ever.

Quote:
And insurance companies denying people basic generic drugs that are needed for chronic conditions, that the individual has the insurance for, because they do not want to pay for them, all the while filling Vigra prescriptions so old men can ****, is a joke. I think you need to spend a little more time in the medical field, and hopefully not for similar reasons me and many others in the US the world deal with.



You act like this is normal operating procedure..Rolling Eyes Get real dude. Anyone can take a random deviation from the norm and try to spread it around like it is common practice to justify their position, sorry, not buying your crap. It's more likely people are strung out on uneccessary prescriptions all the while seeking medical attention for every little sniffle. A portion of the population are crying wolf a bit too much, driving the cost of healthcare services through the roof for the rest of us. Add to that the sue-happy population and all the lawyers ready to take on the plight against the evil Dr's purposely purforming malpractice, and it's no wonder why they need a 500k/year salary so a huge chunk of it can go to malpractice insurance.

The people of the USA consume way too much in terms of health services, just like many consume way too much food. The liberal left loves this, and just wants to create a society where more hand holding is the way of life, they love their sheeple, it's how they get elected. No thanks. Smile

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.12.16 14:01:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Nyu Shin
Got bail - LOL you fail!


RazzRazzRazz

Of course, he'll still be under house arrest etc for months, but it's a step towards sanity at least ugh

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.16 14:04:00 - [394]
 


Originally by: Bhaal
It could wind up being someone a lot more evil & secrative than the USA.


That implies that since we are not the "worst" that our government has the right to do what they want in the name of freedom, stamp Top Secret on the accounts of said actions, and then they never have to face any consequences for actions that should have never been set in place. That is how a government should be run Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Bhaal

Bottom line is, in today's world, there is a top dog waving its **** in the face of everyone else, and at the monemt it IS the USA.



A yes, ****, er I mean saber rattling, is always the best way to get stuff done. Maybe if we held our international companies in check and stop then from completely destroying the working class in parts of the world that do not have the protection we have, then some of the many problems we face internationally could possibly be diluted. But no we want out companies to continue to make fat bank at the detriment to world affairs and continue to use our money to fund their protection and not the companies that cause the problems.


Slade

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:07:00 - [395]
 

Edited by: Ava Starfire on 16/12/2010 17:10:09
Americans would rather our tax dollars are spent murdering citizens of other nations than providing healthcare to our own.

At what point do you people actually convince yourselves that this mindset is really good, desirable, right?

"hand holding." Meh. I live in Northeast Ohio, and I have seen enough handholding-of corporations-to last me a lifetime. Over 100. That is how many steel mills and rolling mills from NE ohio have been moved overseas in the last 25 years, making more money for that top 1%, and enabled by a broken, elitist political system.

In the relatively small town I live in, we once had;
Rockwell Brake (employed abouty 10000 people)
True Temper (employed 3-4000)
Reliance Electric Motors (1000+)
Jones & Laughlin Steel *dock facilites* 750-1000)
Reactive Metals Incorporated (1000+)
Linde Chemical (several hundred)
Molded Fiber Glass (still here, 1/10 the size it was)
Great Lakes Engineering; a shipyard, in OHIO!! (2000+)
Elkem Metals (2-3000)
Republic Steel *dock facilities* (1000+)
and numerous smaller shops and foundries.

Wanna guess where these corporations all are now? Yeah. Someplace else, with their hands being firmly held by the US Govt. Wake up and smell the bull****. Where, exactly, are this many people supposed to work, and find benefits, now? Wal-Mart? Ahh, thats right, in the spirit of America...it isnt your problem.

EDIT. Suppose, in all fairness, Norfolk Southern and CSX do maintain our docks now, employing perhaps 1/20 of the number that worked them in the 1980s. Everything else is GONE.

It isnt just the working class of other countries the corporations, and the US govt, have destroyed. Theyve done a pretty solid job of nuking the working class here at home.

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:58:00 - [396]
 

It is globalisation that takes western country working class jobs. Britain did it anyway pre-emptively in the 1980's. It was brutal as Thatcher removed the inefficient rot in mass manufacturing in the UK. Not a lot was left over. The working classes went in one of two directions in the 80's in the UK. Those that were skilled in trades - carpentry, plumbing etc prospered. Those that were unable to adapt or re skill from loosing a manufacturing job got a worse paying service sector job or rotted.

In a country such as Britain which has relatively high population density for a small land mass it is easier to find new employment in a local area. But I suppose in the USA which is a huge country in comparison it is very hard for to relocate if your job was in manufacturing or labour such as mining. And in Europe we have a bigger welfare state.

I think USA will always be a major world economy and player. But I suspect by 2050 it will like the scenery in the film minority report.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.16 19:08:00 - [397]
 

Edited by: So Sensational on 16/12/2010 19:13:04

Originally by: Ava Starfire


"hand holding." Meh. I live in Northeast Ohio, and I have seen enough handholding-of corporations-to last me a lifetime. Over 100. That is how many steel mills and rolling mills from NE ohio have been moved overseas in the last 25 years, making more money for that top 1%, and enabled by a broken, elitist political system.

In the relatively small town I live in, we once had;
Rockwell Brake (employed abouty 10000 people)
True Temper (employed 3-4000)
Reliance Electric Motors (1000+)
Jones & Laughlin Steel *dock facilites* 750-1000)
Reactive Metals Incorporated (1000+)
Linde Chemical (several hundred)
Molded Fiber Glass (still here, 1/10 the size it was)
Great Lakes Engineering; a shipyard, in OHIO!! (2000+)
Elkem Metals (2-3000)
Republic Steel *dock facilities* (1000+)
and numerous smaller shops and foundries.

Wanna guess where these corporations all are now? Yeah. Someplace else, with their hands being firmly held by the US Govt. Wake up and smell the bull****. Where, exactly, are this many people supposed to work, and find benefits, now? Wal-Mart? Ahh, thats right, in the spirit of America...it isnt your problem.

EDIT. Suppose, in all fairness, Norfolk Southern and CSX do maintain our docks now, employing perhaps 1/20 of the number that worked them in the 1980s. Everything else is GONE.

It isnt just the working class of other countries the corporations, and the US govt, have destroyed. Theyve done a pretty solid job of nuking the working class here at home.

So the government is responsible for your unwillingness to work as hard for as little as the people overseas are? If anything the only thing that would help you in this case is even less hand holding, i.e. no minimum wages, absolutely no coverage of anything.

As for military spending vs social spending, the US really could cut down quite a bit. No point in carrying so much of the burden of world peace when the nation is suffering from it, one example would be pulling out all troops stationed in Europe.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:27:00 - [398]
 

Since were on the topic of US being the best I just read in the news that national rifle association has pretty much crippled ATF that has been without permanent leader since 2006.
This has costed NRA 56 million Euros in the last two decades, I have to say that's a bargain.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:43:00 - [399]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 17/12/2010 01:44:35
Originally by: Bhaal


You act like this is normal operating procedure..Rolling Eyes Get real dude. Anyone can take a random deviation from the norm and try to spread it around like it is common practice to justify their position, sorry, not buying your crap.


Crohn's patient here and reporting that me and more then a few others have been denied medications when insurance plans were changed at work and the doctor wanted to switch up the medication regimen. This also happen to numerous individuals suffering with chronic conditions of all types. You not being familiar with the situation does not invalidate the occurrences.


Originally by: Bhaal
It's more likely people are strung out on uneccessary prescriptions all the while seeking medical attention for every little sniffle. A portion of the population are crying wolf a bit too much, driving the cost of healthcare services through the roof for the rest of us. Add to that the sue-happy population and all the lawyers ready to take on the plight against the evil Dr's purposely purforming malpractice, and it's no wonder why they need a 500k/year salary so a huge chunk of it can go to malpractice insurance.


I do not disagree with this.




Originally by: Bhaal
The people of the USA consume way too much in terms of health services, just like many consume way too much food. The liberal left loves this, and just wants to create a society where more hand holding is the way of life, they love their sheeple, it's how they get elected. No thanks. Smile



Yes; it was the liberal left that created the consumptionist mentality in this countryRolling Eyes


Slade

Nyu Shin
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:04:00 - [400]
 


Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.12.17 02:22:00 - [401]
 

Of course it's a clear abuse of power.

America can go **** it self

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.17 08:50:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire

Wanna guess where these corporations all are now?



Someplace with out Unions.

Ssakaa
Minmatar
Metropolis Moods
Posted - 2010.12.17 09:34:00 - [403]
 

Edited by: Ssakaa on 17/12/2010 09:37:20
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs

The only way we can progress as a species, not as a nation, or several nation, but as a whole, is by being open and transparent in our government, combined wiht an educated and alert population. We should not accept authority as truth, but truth as authority!


That's an entirely western mindset. Some of the west's many rivals and enemies do not hold such lofty utopian idealism dear to their hearts -rather they would see the west crushed, economically, militarily, culturally or a combination of these things.

Additionally, yes, your mentioning of 'Nation' for some in other parts of the world is a vague or downright meaningless concept for good or ill. There are bigger long-term agendas than the boundaries of mere nations, out there. Western civilisation as a 'whole' might consider the fact that incidents like this current fracas encourage those who would hasten, even by small increments, the demise of a culture or cultures for whom truth and transparency is considered progressive (whatever progressive means to you).

Some do not hold these values as virtues. And that's worrying for us but bothers them not in the slightest.

Edited for: tired little fingers.

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.12.17 12:10:00 - [404]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 17/12/2010 12:35:18
I like this quote: "In the last few years, the very idea of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is dredged up only as a final resort when the alternative options of deception, threat and bribery have all been exhausted."

For some this won't happen as they have a capability to continuously generate new dirt on people they call 'mate'.

Haters gonna hate? Surely to hate is to propagate ills to people in general indiscriminately that you have suffered yourself. Then you are a vassal for social cancers. If you get stuck on this dog eat dog food chain you throw glib statements like HTFU and other 'ard stuff.

Nyu Shin
Posted - 2010.12.17 17:00:00 - [405]
 


Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:09:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 17/12/2010 22:12:32
Thats really funny. Just reading it on Guardian: US officials regard European human rights standards as an "irritant", secret cables show, So... human rights are irritant and people enforcing it lame ducks without vision ?? It's getting more interessting day by day. I hope the lame ducks from AirStrip1 will grow some balls and release Julian in January :-)

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:36:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 17/12/2010 22:12:32
Thats really funny. Just reading it on Guardian: US officials regard European human rights standards as an "irritant", secret cables show, So... human rights are irritant and people enforcing it lame ducks without vision ?? It's getting more interessting day by day. I hope the lame ducks from AirStrip1 will grow some balls and release Julian in January :-)


"Land of the free" indeed...

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:39:00 - [408]
 

Free range...

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.18 04:16:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: So Sensational

So the government is responsible for your unwillingness to work as hard for as little as the people overseas are? If anything the only thing that would help you in this case is even less hand holding, i.e. no minimum wages, absolutely no coverage of anything.

As for military spending vs social spending, the US really could cut down quite a bit. No point in carrying so much of the burden of world peace when the nation is suffering from it, one example would be pulling out all troops stationed in Europe.



The reason all the work is being moved overseas is because people work for cheaper, and are able to work for cheaper there. The average Chinese income is just under $4,000 a year. The average income in the US is around $46,000.

You can halve both those numbers to get the average income for the bottom 90% of the countries. You're essentially saying that people in the US should be happy to work 18 hours a day with no weekends or holidays for roughly $2,000 a year. Sadly, it doesn't work like that, unless you can tell me how all living costs can be brought down by ~90% in any Western country. That includes groceries, rent/mortgage for a residence, travel....

The reason people in China or other countries in Africa and Asia work for cheap is because it's significantly cheaper to "live" there.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.18 04:51:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Reiisha

The reason all the work is being moved overseas is because people work for cheaper, and are able to work for cheaper there. The average Chinese income is just under $4,000 a year. The average income in the US is around $46,000.

You can halve both those numbers to get the average income for the bottom 90% of the countries. You're essentially saying that people in the US should be happy to work 18 hours a day with no weekends or holidays for roughly $2,000 a year. Sadly, it doesn't work like that, unless you can tell me how all living costs can be brought down by ~90% in any Western country.

Live in a shed, eat bread, drink dirty water, ride a bike or walk to work. Or do you perhaps believe that the average Indian working man has a nice SUV and a flat screen TV? I'm not saying you should be happy to do so, nor that it is possible where you live. I'm saying that you have no right to demand employment (Or social securities to make sure your useless ass* has a comfortable life) if someone else is willing and able to live and work that way.

Originally by: Reiisha
The reason people in China or other countries in Africa and Asia work for cheap is because it's significantly cheaper to "live" there.

If by live you mean survive, at levels most westerners would find unacceptable, then yeah, sure.

*Assuming you're a factory/mill/mine/anything worker with no skills that make it worthwhile to employ you when a hungry, no-shoe-having Indian would do it for 1/10th the cost.

Betty Boom
Caldari
SPECTRE Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.18 11:19:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Reiisha

The reason all the work is being moved overseas is because people work for cheaper, and are able to work for cheaper there. The average Chinese income is just under $4,000 a year. The average income in the US is around $46,000.

You can halve both those numbers to get the average income for the bottom 90% of the countries. You're essentially saying that people in the US should be happy to work 18 hours a day with no weekends or holidays for roughly $2,000 a year. Sadly, it doesn't work like that, unless you can tell me how all living costs can be brought down by ~90% in any Western country. That includes groceries, rent/mortgage for a residence, travel....

The reason people in China or other countries in Africa and Asia work for cheap is because it's significantly cheaper to "live" there.

This is not 100% correcr. In the USA the most investents are only done in the Internet market & Biogen. For other branches was not enough money to 'keep the product upto date'. Also politics in many countries focused on banking & estate. All was focused on financal market and here is the core problem. financal market doesnt create a surpuls value. stock market is a ponzi scheme. For every dollar someone wins and an other lost a dollar.

But this thread is about Wikileak and Julian Assange and not about USA and their fail.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.12.18 11:38:00 - [412]
 

10 days in Sweden: the full allegations against Julian Assange
Unseen police documents provide the first complete account of the allegations against the WikiLeaks founder

TL;DR Girls got upset when they found out that Assange was two-timing them (engrish?) and this soap opera started rolling...

Nyu Shin
Posted - 2010.12.18 13:40:00 - [413]
 


Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.12.18 19:40:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Nyu Shin
Rap News 6 - Wikileaks' Cablegate: the truth is out there


I really hate rap, but this is great Razz

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.18 21:00:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Originally by: Nyu Shin
Rap News 6 - Wikileaks' Cablegate: the truth is out there


I really hate rap, but this is great Razz


I concur. While humorous, it does shed light on actually truth.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.18 21:57:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
The more social programs the better


We will simply have to agree to disagree on this, you're simply 180 degrees apart from me on government hand-holding issues.




I just have to shoot in a comment about "hand holding". Because the only real difference is in motivation and reason behind the health care.

In government provided health care, it is the people that want health care, and they provide the means through taxes. So the whole motive behind it is that you got a people that simply want to be healthy, and they all pay for it.

With insurance, you got a private company whos motive is profit, to make money off the rest of the people by playing on their fear of getting sick. So you pay them instead of paying a government through taxes to be able to get health care.

So in both cases, you expend resources anyways, but in case 1 the health care is universal for all, but in case 2 you got a company that rather not actually pay you back since that would cut down profits, and they are also discriminating on who they will insure.

So that is why I approve of government programs such as this. Because its actually the people taking care of them self, not some parasite sucking the money off the people by playing on their fears and sometimes very real problems. It is also why I happily pay my 33% taxes.

Many tend to neglect the bigger picture of what taxes is, or rather is supposed to be. There is of course room for corruption as we see in US today with massive spending on wars and other ****. But corruption you find anyehre, and is really a symptom of our current society rather the the underlying problem.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:23:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs

I just have to shoot in a comment about "hand holding". Because the only real difference is in motivation and reason behind the health care.

In government provided health care, it is the people that want health care, and they provide the means through taxes. So the whole motive behind it is that you got a people that simply want to be healthy, and they all pay for it.


That's true, it is the people who want health care, and they don't mind it if someone else who pays a hell of a lot more in taxes helps out a bit by paying for their problems. Taxation as it is is theft, and the only way to deal with it if you don't like it (Voting changes nothing, voting left in the US is still voting right, voting right in Sweden is still voting left, just slightly less) is moving to Somalia.

So while the private insurance system is broken it is, in my opinion, the lesser of two evils. Insurance is proportional, you get the coverage you pay for, and you don't work hard all day long so someone else can swoop in and take your money.

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Many tend to neglect the bigger picture of what taxes is, or rather is supposed to be. There is of course room for corruption as we see in US today with massive spending on wars and other ****. But corruption you find anyehre, and is really a symptom of our current society rather the the underlying problem.

Taxes are alright if done right, proportional taxation where what you pay is what you get. I.e. if you own a car you pay taxes to fix the roads, if you ride the subway you don't have to. Blanket taxation, especially that which is not equal (Such as income tax), is pure evil.

baltec1
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:42:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: So Sensational
Taxes are alright if done right, proportional taxation where what you pay is what you get. I.e. if you own a car you pay taxes to fix the roads, if you ride the subway you don't have to. Blanket taxation, especially that which is not equal (Such as income tax), is pure evil.


That person might only use the subway to get to work but roads will still play an important part in their life. Now lets not get ourselves sidetracked.


Today we learn:

Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir has been accused of siphoning off up to $9bn (5.6bn; 7bn euros) of his country's funds by the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Luis Moreno Ocampo told the BBC that President Bashir had hidden the money in personal accounts outside Sudan.

Mr Ocampo's suspicions originally came to light when a diplomatic cable obtained by Wikileaks was published by the Guardian newspaper.



Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:44:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 18/12/2010 22:46:26
USA could save $300 billion a year by reforming the tax code. US Health insurance company's make far to much money at the expense of those who pay for it. If your going to pay taxes you surely would want that money used most efficiently. Not to a lot of US politicians who want to 'bleed the beast' of government. Hmm what else. If Americans stopped driving big fuel inefficient vehicles they could half their $28 billion in oil imports.

Introduce a new type of tax rebate. The US government will give you a rebate - free money! If you reduce your household debt. If you have zero household debt and have less than $600,000 in total assets you will every year get say a $10,000 rebate. The government will actually profit from this. Consumer spending goes down. Households live within their means. The cycle of US consumers buying imports from China, Japan and the rest of the far east will decrease. China will buy less US treasuries. US's trade balance will improve. US consumers living less on credit -> buying goods from the far east on credit will improve US's debt situation.

USA needs a ruler with absolute authority to do all of this. Shutdown congress and senate for 3 years while all these things get done. At the end of the dictatorship USA will be leaner and fitter. I am willing apply for this position provided a KFC is installed in the White Houseugh

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.18 22:58:00 - [420]
 

We need to get over this idea that "they are taking my money" with regards to taxes. We all live in the same system, if we like it or not. We are all linked in a symbiotic relationship in this world, what all of us do affect all others, however slight it its. But it all adds up.

Therefore, if all of us care for all of us, we will all be better off. This is what the governments role is supposed to be. Its a representation of the people, acting in the peoples interest. Government should never have a goal of making profit, it should spend all it "makes" back into the people with infrastructure, science, laws and other programs that benefit us all.

What other reason is there to have a government?

We don't have that today tho. That much is obvious. There is a pretty strong disconnect between the people in the world, and the world governments. Today we got some kind of sick twisted abomination thats only a mockery of what its supposed to be. People are oppressed, people die in poverty, people are cast in jail for no reason, people die needlessly in meaningless wars. This is obviously a problem as we have seen these last years.


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