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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.07 02:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 02:15:47
People like myself play in low sec because we want to PVP. We are not out there to gank hulks, grief mission runners or put our name on the sov map... we just want to fly around and have some fun PVP'ing.


I have always liked the idea of a wardec system that is somehow independent from Empire. Some kind of sanctioned PVP encounters between two groups (or pilots) without having to take sec loss after sec loss until you can no longer enter market hubs with your main. Or Empire entirely.

. . .



I Would Like To Present A New View Of Low Sec


Low Sec does have a valuable resource that no other region has...free PVP without massive blobs, blue lists or sovereignty responsibilities.


. . .



Once upon a time the wardec system in Empire was different, the privateers changed all that with their mass wardecing of Empire. CCP then introduced a incremental cost to wardec Fees as a limiting factor. When they did this they simply did not consider Low Sec into their equation.


If CCP would allow us to declare "Hostilities" in low sec at little to no cost that did not translate to Empire, this would make many players very happy. The simple ability to PVP on a mass scale without getting kicked from Empire, inside of a region where Concord does not exist and Alliances do not tend to blob for highend resources. It makes sense... so why the hell not? YARRRR!!

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.12.07 02:51:00 - [2]
 

Heck, even as a sec 5.9 mission w****e I'd like anything that improved lowsec. ( BTW I live in Lowsec just to get away from the over-stuffed misison hubs, running missions dodging the piwats cos it's more fun).

Frankly if it weren't for the stupid lowsec sec status hits I might even occasionally engage that random lonely hurricane parked outside -- and I can't wardec all wandering pirate corps as there are simply too many.

How about I can wardec a lowsec *constellation* and engage anyone I meet there if they decide to enter. It would be a nice way for low sec groups to claim an area for fighting but without the whole sovereignty thing.

For example: a warning when you enter the constellation, "XXX has declared war on anyone who enters YYY constellation, Come on in if you dare!". If a pirate wants -10.0 to scare the noobs, then don't declare war on the constellation, attack as usual!


Daan

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:14:00 - [3]
 

Good idea. Privateer style war deccing but in low sec.

Shiptoaster
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:28:00 - [4]
 

jpon fw you incredibly stupid moran

Dian'h Might
Minmatar
Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:28:00 - [5]
 

Sounds like a pretty cool idea, but what prevents me from deccing all of eve in lowsec, therefore basically turning lowsec into nullsec?

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Shiptoaster
jpon fw you incredibly stupid moran


LOL FW!

Look, even simpler - remove sec status hits in lowsec. They a PITA to pirates, but not a deterrent, and are a real deterrent to non-pirates. If you want -10 - gank in highsec.

Daan

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:39:00 - [7]
 

make war dec cost depend on system sec status,
its well know that war decs are too cheap, so have .1~.4 what prices are now, .5~.7 triple current price and .8+ 5 times the current price.

Bruce Carraway
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:45:00 - [8]
 

what about the gate/station guns, imagine all those crows on the high sec gate

Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.12.07 06:06:00 - [9]
 

Does this mean that any gatecamper can wardec his system and get away with even less of a penalty? If you tie it to sec status you can just rat a few weeks and get the gatecamping for free card.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.07 06:22:00 - [10]
 

Lowsec is empire.

Verdon Teraskun
Posted - 2010.12.07 06:29:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Bruce Carraway
what about the gate/station guns, imagine all those crows on the high sec gate


This is what lowsec is truly suffering from, lack of insta-lock tackle on all gates to highsec.

Corndog Sandwich
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.07 06:49:00 - [12]
 

why should lowsec be good?

you guys want all the rewards of 0.0 without dealing with the consequences...

it really sounds like you want world of warcraft style arenas Laughing

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.07 07:48:00 - [13]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Some kind of sanctioned PVP encounters between two groups (or pilots) without having to take sec loss after sec loss until you can no longer enter market hubs with your main. Or Empire entirely.

0.0 Rolling Eyes

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:22:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Corndog Sandwich
why should lowsec be good?

you guys want all the rewards of 0.0 without dealing with the consequences...



Sure! Incase you haven't noticed lowsec is pretty much so screwed as to be useless, and getting steadily worse. I think at this point some pretty radical changes might be needed. Lowsec rewards = null sec rewards even without sec hits is just laughable!

BTW let the gateguns keep shooting - thats an established balance between campers and campees, just drop the sec hit, globally or via area wardec or something like that!

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Corndog Sandwich
why should lowsec be good?

you guys want all the rewards of 0.0 without dealing with the consequences...

it really sounds like you want world of warcraft style arenas Laughing

Its better then null sec wintergrasp eh?

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:27:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Oni Triad

0.0 Rolling Eyes


This isn't about null sec at all, its about improving lowsec so more than 8% of players even bother with it. No one wants more nullsec + blob warfare, we want lowsec to be much much more worthwhile. Keep on topic!


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.07 13:20:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 13:21:29
Originally by: Corndog Sandwich
why should lowsec be good?

you guys want all the rewards of 0.0 without dealing with the consequences...

it really sounds like you want world of warcraft style arenas Laughing



What rewards exactly would this bring to low sec?

Sanctums?
R64's?
High end ore?
Rats with 0.0 bounties?
Your name in the upper left hand corner of the screen?

No. This would add no 0.0 rewards to Low Sec.



Originally by: Oni Triad
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Some kind of sanctioned PVP encounters between two groups (or pilots) without having to take sec loss after sec loss until you can no longer enter market hubs with your main. Or Empire entirely.

0.0 Rolling Eyes



Your terminal short sightedness amuses me.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.12.07 13:31:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Daan Sai
Originally by: Oni Triad

0.0 Rolling Eyes


This isn't about null sec at all, its about improving lowsec so more than 8% of players even bother with it. No one wants more nullsec + blob warfare, we want lowsec to be much much more worthwhile. Keep on topic!




If you want more people in lowsec, you're going to have to give them a reason to go there. Making it even easier to shoot them on sight isn't really going to do that.

The reason people don't go to lowsec is because the risks of being WTFBBQPWN'd far outweigh the potential rewards.

If you really want people to come to lowsec, try this:

1. Set up a couple of systems that your corp/alliance "controls".
2. Invite carebears in to mine, mission, rat, etc. DON'T SHOOT THEM. Do tax them however. And if they don't pay the tax, then you shoot them. You're pirates. Extortion should be right up your street.
3. When other pirates jump in to gank your carebears, shoot the other pirates.
4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I know, it sounds like nullsec. There's a reason for that - the nullsec equation works. People who don't give a rat's ass about PvP can wander around doing what they do, and the people who want to bash everything in sight can shoot whatever happens to intrude on their space. Everyone gets what they want.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.07 13:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 13:56:36
No. That is not why we go to low sec... we go there for casual PVP and many of us don't want to get booted from empire so quickly with our mains.


That is it.
Don't change the subject.
We are not in 0.0 for a reason.
This has nothing to do with valuable resources.



Read the OP better...

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:00:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/12/2010 14:00:13
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Daan Sai
Originally by: Oni Triad

0.0 Rolling Eyes


This isn't about null sec at all, its about improving lowsec so more than 8% of players even bother with it. No one wants more nullsec + blob warfare, we want lowsec to be much much more worthwhile. Keep on topic!




If you want more people in lowsec, you're going to have to give them a reason to go there. Making it even easier to shoot them on sight isn't really going to do that.

The reason people don't go to lowsec is because the risks of being WTFBBQPWN'd far outweigh the potential rewards.

If you really want people to come to lowsec, try this:

1. Set up a couple of systems that your corp/alliance "controls".
2. Invite carebears in to mine, mission, rat, etc. DON'T SHOOT THEM. Do tax them however. And if they don't pay the tax, then you shoot them. You're pirates. Extortion should be right up your street.
3. When other pirates jump in to gank your carebears, shoot the other pirates.
4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I know, it sounds like nullsec. There's a reason for that - the nullsec equation works. People who don't give a rat's ass about PvP can wander around doing what they do, and the people who want to bash everything in sight can shoot whatever happens to intrude on their space. Everyone gets what they want.

+1. Pirates are stupid, its been 7 years and they're still shooting their cashcows.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:06:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 14:06:26
One again for the terminally short sighted...



1.) This is not about shooting at Hulk pilots
2.) This is not about getting more people into low sec


Read the op better Rolling Eyes


Casual-PVP-Based-subcapital fleet fights already occur in Low Sec. The only deterrent for many folks is the freakin sec loss. You get kicked out of market hubs sooooo fast and then all of Empire follows shortly their after.


We don't need more people in Low Sec.
We don't need to make more ISK in Low Sec.




Take a deep breath and actually read what I posted before you go on and on with the "Low Sec vs 0.0 Vs Resources" rant ughRolling Eyes

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:23:00 - [23]
 

OP

You and I look at low sec the same. This is one of the reasons I'm in fw. But even there I'm somewhat glad that my frigate or cruiser ships I won't get caught at every gate camp. That is I'm somewhat glad for the gate guns.

I recomend that declaring "hostilities" would work so you don't take sec status hits but the gate guns will still fire. They don't need to fire for 15 minutes though. Maybe they just fire for 5 minutes if its a "hostile".

Hence you can still roam low sec in smaller ships but don't have to take the crazy sec status hits. Perhaps you could make declaring hostile free if it is mutual.

Dro Nee
Posted - 2010.12.07 18:52:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Dro Nee on 07/12/2010 18:54:38
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Casual-PVP-Based-subcapital fleet fights already occur in Low Sec. The only deterrent for many folks is the freakin sec loss.


Strangely enough it is people in the medium/larger gangs and fleets that have the biggest problem with sec loss. If you run solo(or very small gang), and are not shooting bestowers/retrievers or pods, the sec losses were always quite managable. Now that we have BS spawns in low it does not take long to rat up sec even if you do slip into the -4 or -5 catagory (although much easier and faster if you jump to null for this project).

The OP repeatedly makes statements about needing to go to market hubs but, given hauler alts being so easy to make, this sounds fishy. Additionally, 2M/week (corp) and 50M/week (alliance) is already peanuts, so I am not sure that decreasing the costs will actually accomplish the goal set forth for such a change. Selling $.05 gum for $.03 will not noticably increase demand.

TBH the idea smacks of a desire to "wardec" so to avoid sec penalties, without having to worry that said wardec will interfere with highsec mission running.

EDIT: I do agree that lowsec needs neither more people nor more ISK.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.07 19:28:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 19:54:04
Originally by: Dro Nee
Edited by: Dro Nee on 07/12/2010 18:54:38
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Casual-PVP-Based-subcapital fleet fights already occur in Low Sec. The only deterrent for many folks is the freakin sec loss.


Strangely enough it is people in the medium/larger gangs and fleets that have the biggest problem with sec loss. If you run solo(or very small gang), and are not shooting bestowers/retrievers or pods, the sec losses were always quite managable. Now that we have BS spawns in low it does not take long to rat up sec even if you do slip into the -4 or -5 catagory (although much easier and faster if you jump to null for this project).

The OP repeatedly makes statements about needing to go to market hubs but, given hauler alts being so easy to make, this sounds fishy. Additionally, 2M/week (corp) and 50M/week (alliance) is already peanuts, so I am not sure that decreasing the costs will actually accomplish the goal set forth for such a change. Selling $.05 gum for $.03 will not noticably increase demand.

TBH the idea smacks of a desire to "wardec" so to avoid sec penalties, without having to worry that said wardec will interfere with highsec mission running.

EDIT: I do agree that lowsec needs neither more people nor more ISK.



If I had not specified Low Sec only you can imagine the counterproductive ****storm that would follow yes? No one in Empire wants a change in the current Wardec system and that is just the way it is. The Low Sec player base however would immensely benefit from such a change.


Also, not everyone is uniformly interested in small skirmishes alone. Why should they be? Many people want both skirmishes AND fleet fights that range in-between a few steps above small gang and a few floors below a supercapital blob fest from hell. Only Low Sec can provide this because the 0.0 alliances are not interested in most of it.



I should not have to rely on an alt to exist in game. This is my main... I post on the forms, mission run, PVP, fly Guardians and Commandships on this character. I should not be required to create an alt to go shopping.



Edit:


Regarding Wardec costs, The Orphanage could rent a decent constellation with the amount of ISK they throw out the window every month. You failed to mention that it is an incremental increase of 50M per wardec. And that price goes up with each additional wardec that is declared on the reciving Alliance/Corporation.


Your statement suggests that 90M for 2 wardecs would not be easier on the wallet then 150M for 2 wardecs and that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Stig Sterling
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:55:00 - [26]
 

I like this idea, but it has to be balanced the other way too.

If you can have open hostilities with anyone, without consequence, then it will still be just as, if not more chaotic.

What is needed is a way to make alliances under the same rules, and the incentive to do so.

I don't really have any ideas, I'm just throwing it out there.

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.12.08 07:06:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 08/12/2010 07:08:03
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/12/2010 13:21:29
Originally by: Corndog Sandwich
why should lowsec be good?

you guys want all the rewards of 0.0 without dealing with the consequences...

it really sounds like you want world of warcraft style arenas Laughing



What rewards exactly would this bring to low sec?




the reward is open pvp with no consequences and no costs. Basically you want to log in, blow stuff up, then go to jita with no detriment to you. Not happening. Even null sec doesn't have that.

Most null crews have a pseudo sec status hit that keeps empire off limits in most parts. Its called privateer war decs. Die in jita to privateers as a WT (every alliance can expect at least 1 week a month of this...least they fair and hit everyone)...expect an ass chewing at some point from your ceo. Run an out of corp alt...all is well with the world. Alt buys at hubs, hauls to logisitics point, a jf pilot flies to your null sec home for a small fee. Keeps you in null sec and not dying in empire. Also the small matter of once in a null sec corp...you are in null sec full time. Short of jumping in a jc for a night of skillbook injection...if you are in empire, you are doing something wrong.

Cost free war...how about hitting them belts (.3 and lower pays well...been there) to get the corp some tax isk to fund war decs. Empire corps do it and so does null sec so not seeing how this can't work for low sec crews. Welcome to pvp, in case you missed the memo it costs money. Why the blob rats with tax rates, gives the funds to make people WT's. Want reds...they pay for the fun. Neat how that works out huh. Or if ratting to fund corp decs too carebearish have part of the loot from kills goes to corp. Corp sells it...money into the war fund wallet.


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.08 13:54:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 08/12/2010 14:38:25

Originally by: Sakura Shiro
the reward is open pvp with no consequences and no costs.




So if there is a way to wardec the Alliances that frequent my area of Low Sec at reduced cost... I will no longer kill randoms passing through?

* My team of PVP'ers will no longer roam into other distant regions of Low Sec where other Alliances dwell?
* No other corporation/Alliance will EVER pop in and out of my Low Sec home with such little frequency that they are not worth decing?


I would never take a sec hit again? Neutral

Your short sighted view stinks of "I want you to play EVE My way" not your way. ATM I can manage the sec hits that I take but it is just a royal pain in the ass to do so. It takes away from my play time considerably because not only do I have to make ISK to cover my losses, I also have to roam NPC space in order to keep my sec status above -5.


These are two entirely different activities in case you are not aware of it. The patter that allows you to make ISK quickly differs greatly from the pattern that allows you to rep your sec status quickly. And by quickly I mean it still consumes a great deal of my gaming time.


. . .



To think that Low Sec could not support some form of casual PVP gaming experience, that is supported by more in-depth game mechanics in the complex world of EVE Online, is quite honestly, laughable. It is a unique spot in the game board and it seems supremely suited for it. If you die how can your PVP be "Consequence and cost Free" ugh It is no more consequence free then a wardec is in Empire, and since it's low sec a reduced wardec bill is not as absurd and unwarranted as you are making it sound. As I stated allot of people who are playing this game want more content in their lives then making ISK, taxing the **** out of their member base and camping the Jita undock. Being surrounded by blues in 0.0 is not much different then living in Empire and most of the time the PVP out there is so brainless that it's comparable to being a sheep hitting a primary.


If you do not understand why MANY individuals have given up on that lifestyle and exist in Low Sec/ Empire then you are not qualified to comment. But your suggestion that this idea is consequence free and has no cost is unsubstantiated to the extreme. This notion would also encourage more of the player base to PVP. Whether you like it or not this is a game and people like to hang out and casually play a game. Not everything has to be this massive project just to make it work.

No POS's To Deal With
No Great ISK Opportunities
No Resources
No Epeen or Blobs

Just log in and PVP without getting booted from Empire So Fast What possible argument is there against such a proposition? PVP for the sake of PVP and for love of the game ... not for wealth or ego. Just having fun in the damn game that you pay to play. Cool

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.12.08 14:50:00 - [29]
 

OP unfortunately there are allot of people who think that it is somehow unfair for you to do something fun in eve without first having to do something boring for hours.

But there are still some of us who think like you. Low sec should be quick access to quality pvp for the casual player. Unfortunately so many people have the "carebear versus pirate/griefer" dichotomy so ingrained in their head they think every post must be about that.

I may not agree with your whole proposal but I do definitely agree with your goal.

I do recomend that you give fw a try. I really think it is the best eve has to offer the casual pvper.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:20:00 - [30]
 

A variation such as what you proposed in post 23 would also be fine by me. Any change is good change at this juncture.


I am a big fan of intelligent debate, but as you said many people have this Carebear VS Pirate twitch response and it is a stigma that pollutes every intelligent proposal that I have seen regarding Low Sec for years.


I tell this to new PVP'ers all the time: "PVP'ing is not 'being the bad guy' when you log on to Call of Duty do you expect not to get shot? Do you expect others to not shoot at you? No one forces someone to jump into Low Sec and if they don't like it they can stay in Empire because that's what it's for"


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