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Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:04:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 06/12/2010 23:04:58
Quote:
For a Niche MMOG 300,000 is a large number. However its nowhere near enough to compete against the competition. Focusing on that word for a moment. Competition is bad when your player base is 1/36th the size of the largest MMOG out there. Competition equals loss of profit. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


You obviously do not have any business education. Cause unless you have more money than Bill Gates you do not try to make your differentiated MMO more similar to the king of the Block.

If you make it more similar then you have to compete on price - see how that's going for LOTRO. Going free (lols) last time I heard. That, my friend, is a sign of desperation.

No, what anyone (who isn't a business idiot) would do is differentiate your product and give it a niche market which is exactly what CCP has done and one of the large areas in how it has done that is with a time based skill system as opposed to a grind based experience system which every other MMO has.

Yet, you, with all your business acumen (lol), want to take the Niche MMO and make it more like all the others.

FAIL.

SO hard that bears repeating.
FAIL.

But good news - I don't think that you are this much of a moron. See? I think you really don't care how CCP does financially - this is just a whole stealth whine based on the fact that you don't want to wait to get into your shiney.

So you are not a moron you are a whiney, impatient kid.
congrats.

:)

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Riedle
Edited by: Riedle on 06/12/2010 23:04:58
Quote:
For a Niche MMOG 300,000 is a large number. However its nowhere near enough to compete against the competition. Focusing on that word for a moment. Competition is bad when your player base is 1/36th the size of the largest MMOG out there. Competition equals loss of profit. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


You obviously do not have any business education. Cause unless you have more money than Bill Gates you do not try to make your differentiated MMO more similar to the king of the Block.

If you make it more similar then you have to compete on price - see how that's going for LOTRO. Going free (lols) last time I heard. That, my friend, is a sign of desperation.

No, what anyone (who isn't a business idiot) would do is differentiate your product and give it a niche market which is exactly what CCP has done and one of the large areas in how it has done that is with a time based skill system as opposed to a grind based experience system which every other MMO has.

Yet, you, with all your business acumen (lol), want to take the Niche MMO and make it more like all the others.

FAIL.

SO hard that bears repeating.
FAIL.

But good news - I don't think that you are this much of a moron. See? I think you really don't care how CCP does financially - this is just a whole stealth whine based on the fact that you don't want to wait to get into your shiney.

So you are not a moron you are a whiney, impatient kid.
congrats.

:)


I'm glad you seem to think that you have something there. As I have noted several times throughout this topic the greater majority of what I have said is based in opinion. In regards to CCP's finances however, you are so far from wrong that I believe a face palm should be in order.

CCPs market share is 21% down from this time last year. Thats pretty saddening when you consider that the holidays are just a few weeks away. 21% isn't a small number, but since you seem to understand Marketing to a higher degree than I do, this shouldn't need to be explained.

CCP is not a private company, so their finances are completely public. Go have a look see and you tell me that they havent lost money... Im sensing an oncoming moment of denial followed by a face-palm hard enough to knock yourself into artardom.

Thanks for being classy. If I throw a stick will you leave?

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:53:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 06/12/2010 23:54:53

Quote:
I'm glad you seem to think that you have something there. As I have noted several times throughout this topic the greater majority of what I have said is based in opinion. In regards to CCP's finances however, you are so far from wrong that I believe a face palm should be in order.


Lol
Then I'm sure you can link a quarterly report from CCP indicating this? lol

Quote:
CCPs market share is 21% down from this time last year. Thats pretty saddening when you consider that the holidays are just a few weeks away. 21% isn't a small number, but since you seem to understand Marketing to a higher degree than I do, this shouldn't need to be explained
.

What? Why must you continue to lie?

Quote:
CCP is not a private company, so their finances are completely public. Go have a look see and you tell me that they havent lost money... Im sensing an oncoming moment of denial followed by a face-palm hard enough to knock yourself into artardom.


LOL

I don't know if they have lost money or not.. and neither do you. You know why? Because CCP is a privately held corporation.
L
O
L

From CCPGames.com

Quote:
CCP Games is a privately held company that specializes in the creation, development, and distribution of Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs). Founded in 1997, CCP is recognized internationally as a pioneer in the single-server persistent universe concept of the MMOG genre. CCP Games is headquartered in Reykjavik, Iceland with an office in Shanghai, China. For more information, visit www.ccpgames.com
.

Did someone say facepalm? lol

Quote:
Thanks for being classy. If I throw a stick will you leave?


Just stop making things up to advance a whine that you are too cowardly to admit to.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:10:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Ehrghiez on 07/12/2010 00:19:29
If you can invest in a company they are a publicly owned company. This is called a share.

*throws a stick*


http://www.nasdaq.com/earnings/analyst_summary.asp?symbol=ICE&symbol=OMX&selected=OMX

Edited to include their stock/revenue/equity etc. Have fun.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:19:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
If you can invest in a company they are a publicly owned company. This is called a share.

*throws a stick*


Wow - your business ignorance knows no bounds does it?
This is, of course, wrong.

All incorporated companies have shareholders. The differentiator is if the shares are publicly available for anyone to buy or not.

lols

I thought everyone knew this?

But yes, you are right and CCP is wrong - they are a publicly owned company - because YOU say so apparently. lols
Shocked

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:21:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Ehrghiez
If you can invest in a company they are a publicly owned company. This is called a share.

*throws a stick*


Wow - your business ignorance knows no bounds does it?
This is, of course, wrong.

All incorporated companies have shareholders. The differentiator is if the shares are publicly available for anyone to buy or not.

lols

I thought everyone knew this?

But yes, you are right and CCP is wrong - they are a publicly owned company - because YOU say so apparently. lols
Shocked



Check the link in my last post. Its publicly available.

Ehrghiez
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:23:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Ehrghiez on 07/12/2010 00:25:23
Disregard the link. Wrong link.

Had the site, lost it. Their stock name on OMX/ICE is "CCP 09 0728"


Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:27:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 07/12/2010 00:30:39
Originally by: Ehrghiez
Edited by: Ehrghiez on 07/12/2010 00:25:23
Disregard the link. Wrong link.

Had the site, lost it. Their stock name on OMX/ICE is "CCP 09 0728"




Well of course as they are a privately held company and as such - you can't buy a share of them on a stock exchange.
Rolling Eyes

Edit: They have offered bonds. That is debt and is NOT the same as equity. of course, you would know this had you ANY idea what you were talking about.

In anycase if CCP is a publicly traded company just post a quarterly report. They have to do them by law you know.

fetch!

Allisa Deep
Posted - 2010.12.07 01:42:00 - [39]
 

Well this thread seems to be seriously derailed now.

As to the original topic, yes I do thing debate over how to keep an influx of new players into the game is of the utmost importance to the game. Making sure the gap between new and old players is limited is a grand challange for CCP as the "old" players will continue amassing SP and unlocking more content of the game and thus only increasing the gap.

Revising the learning system is a start but will not be enough in the long term. Alternate solutions like possibility for players to transfer SP to an implant and then sell/contract the SP stored on the implant to new players or char might be alternate game play additions to look into.

Any debate on this subject should be encouraged not trolled or trivialized. To bad some snobby players think the game is "theirs" and shouldn't change at all. If a constant influx of new players isn't ensured in the futere the game will slowly die. So instead of trolling and dissing suggestions from new players, try to post something that will actualy help the EVE community.

Hooligan Tool
Awww Diddums..
Posted - 2010.12.07 04:43:00 - [40]
 

Think about this -- how many times have you heard of a new player crying and rage-quitting because the character had the skill for the shiny new expensive ship but the player wasn't ready and lost it? With the removal of the Learning skills, training will be faster anyway. Does it really make sense to let them into shiny new expensive ships even faster?

CCP has already taken a huge step in the right direction with the elimination of the Learning skills. Why don't we see how that change affects things for new players before taking mechanics from other MMOs and grafting them to EVE?

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.07 06:06:00 - [41]
 

I don't think SP as mission rewards is a solution if you want to speed up skilltraining. There's really no way to balance all the gameplay options in a way that they all give equal benefits without forcing people into one kind of "best" gameplay, which we don't want.

If CCP wants to speed up skilltraining I think the only viable way to do it is just increasing the SP/hour the attributes give. While they now give 60 SP/hr for the primary attribute and 30 SP/hr for the secondary, they could make that 80/40 or 100/50 or whatever.

Another thing they could do is give a SP bonus with every expansion. But while I agree on the one hand that it doesn't make sense that not playing and practicing rewards as much as playing a lot, on the other hand I see no way or reason to change EVE into some hybrid grinding game either.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2010.12.07 12:36:00 - [42]
 

This learning skills removal will have a huge effect on training times as it is.
In my experience it isn't waiting for the skills that new players quit over it's usually being suicide ganked, being beaten in PVP etc.


Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:10:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Coyopa


But, in my opinion this is not a good thing in the long run for CCP. This is easy money for them as surely there will be an increase in subscription now. However, new players, instead of learning also game mechanics while learning to learn, they will jump in ships without knowing how to properly fly. And they will loose those ships. And they will be frustrated and they will complain about that on the forum. And then they will blame the SP difference between them and older players, among ather things.

So, again, I don't think this is good in the long run for CCP.


You are an idiot. and this has to be the single stupidest defense of the learning skills I've seen.

How the hell is one supposed to learn how to properly use a ship/module unless you can actually use it? huh?

The truth is that even with fully accelerated learning speed it still takes far longer to gain the SP to use most advanced ships/modules than it does to earn the isk and learn the needed mechanics.

Now don't get me wrong. I actually kind of like the fact that one can play the game while your training takes place at the background rather than having to grind away on repetitive boring tasks for SP.

And I understand the rational of deferred gratification in game design. Long train times creates a sense of exclusivity of certain abilities it creates a sense of accomplishment once one finally can use that new shinny ship.

But this nonsense that somehow sitting in a station spinning ships or flying the same L1 missions or PVPing in the same crapy T1 fit Rifter somehow teaches you the player skills to operate more advanced gear is complete silliness. Particularly the idea that the Learning/attribute skills themselves did this in any way shape or form.

The developers do have to constantly adjust training speeds if they don't do something to soften the system for newbies then eventually you end up with no one playing because even the most hardcore vet will eventually quit playing, if for no other reason than the fact that unlike our avatars we are not immortal.

New blood is essential to any games health.

The reason things are generally made easier over time is because as the game ages the gap between the newbs and vets increases so you either have to speed up the progress for the newbs or eventually your subscriptions decline.

Now I personally dislike the idea of grinding for SP. I think it removes a defining aspect of the game. Further I think that CCP has done a good job so far of balancing vet retention with New player attraction.

The broad but shallow skill system helps a lot. The fact that no skills can be trained past 5 acts as a great equalizer. Giving older players more options rather than simply more power allowing newer players to match their power levels in relatively short order.

The removal of learning skills is good on multiple levels.

For one it will actually result in new players actually playing the game and going out and using that equipment that their freshly learned skills unlock.

Next it will result in a minor acceleration of training for newer players which will help with retention as well.

Even the removal of the 100% learning bonus is a good thing (though I was skeptical at first thought) because players won't get the sticker shock on how long things will take to train when it expires.

Now do be aware that eventually the Dev's will have to do something else to combat the new v vet imbalance. It's just a reality of MMO design in another year they'll need to do something else.

They'll either shorten the time between remaps (I like this one) or lower some more prereq's for accessing certain skills/equipment. Such as perhaps lowering the prereq's on T2 guns to L4 rather than L5.

I'm not worried because so far for all their failings CCP has shown a good track record of addressing this issue in a measured and considered manner.


Atkyaz Dreadstalker
Minmatar
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:41:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: trollerii
And yes, I don't see it how they go around financially with all the PLEXes lying around everywhere. :)
You mean aside from the fact that PLEX's are only created when CCP gets paid?


Thats a good point. I didn't even think about that. Despite that, Eve still has a VERY small player base compared to some larger MMOs which I am sure could cause financial issues in the future if adaptations aren't made.


Small? are you serious?
Name one game that has been around for more than 6 years with a larger player base. EVE is 7 years old and still going strong.
True, WOW is huge, but any other MMO even if they have a huge number of players in the first year or two are pretty much dead by year 5-6.

WOW hit over 5 million subscribers at its peak but has dropped a lot in the last two years. It is still probably the biggest game, but many players are sick of it and moving on. EVE has a stable player base, I believe around 400,000 active subs. Daily peaks of players actually logged in is usually around 40,000. Even at off times it is usually around 25,000 logged in. I have never seen it below 20,000 at any time I have logged in. Very few MMO games can match that past their second year. EVE is 7 years old.

One of the things that makes EVE so great is that there is no max level to reach, no cap on character development. Character progression does not stop. it would take more than 20 years to train every skill now available to level 5, and by then there will be a tonne of new skills to train. And the game is so vast there is always something new to try or a goal to work towards no matter how long you have played.

Atkyaz Dreadstalker
Minmatar
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:46:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Atkyaz Dreadstalker on 08/12/2010 17:51:31

Nicky's Tomb
Posted - 2010.12.09 08:46:00 - [46]
 

I've got to get out to work, so I'll read the thread later, but...

Since I started Eve I always thought that the skills you are training should match what you are currently doing in the game. I even went through a phase of switching what I was training based on what I was doing. ie. if I was mining I would train mining skills, if I was missioning I would train gunnery, drone, spaceship or social skills.

It would be an interesting idea if you skill points per hour would double if you were training as skill relating to what you were doing.

This is more or less how the real world works. You can't just say "I want to know how to make grass baskets", and wait 10 days and hey presto now you can. You would have to weave some baskets and gain experience to gain the skill.

So, if you were firing your guns say, then any skill in the gunnery category would train at double speed while the guns are firing. Electronics train twice as fast while you are using ECM or other EW modules.

Paul

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.09 10:18:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nicky's Tomb
It would be an interesting idea if you skill points per hour would double if you were training as skill relating to what you were doing.

Once upon a time during beta you would gain extra SP from activity, such as shooting your guns. CCP removed it before going live.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.12.09 11:42:00 - [48]
 

To the op no thanks.

Prefer it as it is, if you were to make activities gain you sp, then people like myself would do well out of it. I could play this game for about 12 -16+ hours almost everyday, that would mean I could catch up with some of the players that have played for 6 years. So do you think it's fair that I could catch up with someone that has played for 6 years just because my life-style is different? And yes I know game like WoW, AoC, EQ2 etc do it the way you suggest but they do not take long to get to max level anyway. AoC takes me less than 2 calender weeks to max the level, I think it would be possible to get than down to a week if I actually tried to do it quicker.

Plus just think of all the extra lag, CCP continue to fight lag so doubt they would go that route anyway.

Plus the other thing I like about the skill system in this game is even when you are not playing in a sense you still are.

Xenuchrist
STK Scientific
Rolling Thunder.
Posted - 2010.12.09 11:44:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Ehrghiez
Before I begin allow me to first say that I am not a nay-sayer.


6/10

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.09 12:25:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: RaTTuS on 09/12/2010 12:26:37
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Nicky's Tomb
It would be an interesting idea if you skill points per hour would double if you were training as skill relating to what you were doing.

Once upon a time during beta you would gain extra SP from activity, such as shooting your guns. CCP removed it before going live.

Actually it was in until RMR ...

umm maybe exodus ,.,, not sure now

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.09 17:21:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Ranka Mei on 09/12/2010 17:30:18

The way I figure this, the only thing really hampering gameplay as CCP sees it (= everybody should PvP in 0.0, despite the advertised sandbox model), is either to allow implants to survive podding, or to allow 2x clone-jumps per day.

Newbies really need +5 implants more badly than vets. Yet newbies have less ISK; so they'll sc**** whatever they can get together, and then stay in highsec for a very long time, too afraid to lose their extremely expensive implants to lowsec. Yes, you can clone-jump, but it takes an entire day to recover from that. So, allowing 2x clone-jumps per day would help too: then you can jump in, gain your 0.0 experience for the day, and jump safely back without losing any significant training time.

I know, when you touch the way implants work, or clone-jumping, you tend to engender the rage of half the forum, LOL, with all sorts of folks coming out of the woodworks, screaming how the noobs want things even easier. I get that. :) But let's face it, a full +5 Attribute set (which you'll need as a newbie, as you can't just go with, say, perc + will alone in your first year) means you're essentially PvP-ing with the equivalent of a 600mil 'ship'. Now, seriously, would any of you advise a noob to go take a 600mil ship to lowsec? No, you wouldn't. Same difference: noobs don't take their 600mil implants to low sec, either. Simple as that.

Attribute implants gravely hinder 'full' gameplay: they're learning related, yet they only promote station spinning. So, I'm saying: if CCP really wants to get people to go PvP in lowsec, the'll probably have to revisit the way attribute implants work, sooner or later.

EDIT: Oh, and to the powers that be: s-c-r-a-p-e is a perfectly legit English word; tell your forum tool be a little less compulsive about censoring common words. :)

Edana Jah
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:15:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Newbies really need +5 implants more badly than vets. Yet newbies have less ISK; so they'll sc**** whatever they can get together, and then stay in highsec for a very long time, too afraid to lose their extremely expensive implants to lowsec. Yes, you can clone-jump, but it takes an entire day to recover from that. So, allowing 2x clone-jumps per day would help too: then you can jump in, gain your 0.0 experience for the day, and jump safely back without losing any significant training time.


If someone is making enough isk to justify +5 implants, I would no longer consider them a new player. 600 mil was way more than I could afford doing the typical things newbies do: low level mission running, frigate/cruiser mining, high-sec plexing. Any newbie with that kind of isk to burn has a friend who's played EVE for a while and that's already enough of a safety net; They don't need game mechanics to change to protect "their" investment.

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2010.12.10 14:22:00 - [53]
 

He has a point there though, even +4's are costly when you are constantly losing them. I know that from experience, went to 0.0 pretty early when I was still a noob and started losing ships n pods in bubbles of course. Thats at least 20 mil per pod loss when you are using 2 implants that boost your primary attributes. That adds over time because usually new players lose their pods a lot in 0.0.

A good thing would be to insure your implants so you get new ones cheaper for your clone or something like that.

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:28:00 - [54]
 

Training times relative to the skills you are using (i.e. the ship you are flying and what you are fitting) should be a bit quicker while you are online and playing, but the difference shouldn't be huge.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:43:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian
Training times relative to the skills you are using (i.e. the ship you are flying and what you are fitting) should be a bit quicker while you are online and playing, but the difference shouldn't be huge.


There should be no difference. The whole point of implementing a time based training system is to get rid of any such advantages, the assosiated grinding and any other misc. negative affects. The current system allows casual players and working people to not get left behind and allows them to progress their skills at the same speed as no life basement dwellers.

Even just being online is a sort of a grind too, if it boosts training speeds, since everyone would feel the need to stay logged on at all times, even though they can't play or don't want to play. If you force an activity on them to prevent this kind of "exploitation" of the system, then you are just basicly implementing a normal SP grind on top of the current system, again nullifying the best part of the current system.

Desirsar
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:55:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Desirsar on 11/12/2010 18:57:05
If we're dead set on keeping the SP linked to time... and this is supposed to be a business after profit...

Allow players to purchase "months" of training time backwards, with an upper limit of however many SP a character would have if it were created on day one and kept active and training until present day.

Or, regarding a hybrid system, if you're worried that a player (farmer?) logged in 23/7, 7 days a week, would have too much of an advantage, implement both parts of the hybrid system and keep them separate. Logged out? Train like normal. Logged in? Train by using the skills, and get nothing if you're logged in and AFK. Not sure how to combine that with the business skills, among others, but I'm sure the designers could come up with something.

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian
Training times relative to the skills you are using (i.e. the ship you are flying and what you are fitting) should be a bit quicker while you are online and playing, but the difference shouldn't be huge.


There should be no difference. The whole point of implementing a time based training system is to get rid of any such advantages, the assosiated grinding and any other misc. negative affects. The current system allows casual players and working people to not get left behind and allows them to progress their skills at the same speed as no life basement dwellers.

Even just being online is a sort of a grind too, if it boosts training speeds, since everyone would feel the need to stay logged on at all times, even though they can't play or don't want to play. If you force an activity on them to prevent this kind of "exploitation" of the system, then you are just basicly implementing a normal SP grind on top of the current system, again nullifying the best part of the current system.


As opposed to a system where, no matter how much more you're actually logged in and playing, no matter how much better you are at the game (player, not character), you can't ever catch someone who started before you? That's broke as hell and anyone who can't see that is blind or in denial to protect their own interests.


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