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Deliz Seemack
Conics Corporation
Posted - 2005.01.14 06:27:00 - [1]

The way to gain experience (skills) in EVE is totaly based on time. You have to wait to train. I think it would be nice to have a way to gain more experience while playing.

If you look at World of Warcraft where experience is mostly gained by playing the game, they also have the rest state which is based on time. The more you rest, even if you're offline, the more you'll gain experience. You still have to play the game to gain the extra experience with the rest state. They have the best of the two worlds even if the game is strongly oriented in gaining experience by playing.

EVE could implement a similar system and still base his experience gaining system on time. One way to do this would be to add an other kind of agent, the mentor agent. When you complete a mission from that agent, he would give you some skill points that you could add up to specific category skill. This solution could be easily tweaked.

Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.14 07:02:00 - [2]

The day that EVE goes to a stupid level treadmill/grind is the day that I leave.

If you want WoW's ****ty skill system and the fun of grinding crappy monsters and idiotic crafts, go knock yourself out.

I play EVE because it doesnt have that kind of crap. If I wanted to play EQ CLONE #372: SHINY HAPPY MMORPG OF L33T, I'd go play it.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2005.01.14 07:25:00 - [3]

There was such an increase at one time, problem is people abused it of course, people sat around shooting rocks, running armor repairs and changed ships as some shuffle cards to cash in on the experience bonuses.

Perfect Cell
Posted - 2005.01.14 10:11:00 - [4]

i belive he is just stating the following example

when training for mining lvl 5 it takes about 11 days(estimated) thus if you mine whilst training it you may put it down to 5 days because you are getting a few skill points ontop of the points that you get for training, thus its not a stupid idea that ppl would just gain levels in instantly, if you only got a few skill points for what you do, per cycle or such it wont be worth sitting there and recharging your huss and such, but when you use it in combat then you gain a few skill points and you feel like you have reaped a better reward

Deliz Seemack
Conics Corporation
Posted - 2005.01.14 15:39:00 - [5]

Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
The day that EVE goes to a stupid level treadmill/grind is the day that I leave.

If you want WoW's ****ty skill system and the fun of grinding crappy monsters and idiotic crafts, go knock yourself out.

I play EVE because it doesnt have that kind of crap. If I wanted to play EQ CLONE #372: SHINY HAPPY MMORPG OF L33T, I'd go play it.

I don't want WoW's skill system and I don't want EVE to change radically. All I'm saying is that I would like to see a way to gain a small amount of skill points while playing.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.01.14 16:01:00 - [6]

I don't remember people having that ability at all Danton, but I was on vacation from EVE from a long, long time. I sure hope CCP reclaimed sp from people shooting at roids.

The main objection is that you shouldn't be able to gain skillpoints interacting with the environment or npcs. Interacting with PCs possibly should give some advantages, but interacting with the same PCs, two week accounts, or alts should be steadilly hampered to prevent exploitation. And the gains should be minimal, like 10-30 minutes worth of sp.

Players will undoubtedly find a way to exploit the system of course. There's probably no way around that. Of course an exploit isn't an exploit if everyone does it and it is fun to do and conducive to gameplay.. like if you have to fight a different person every day if you want to keep getting additional learning sp. I don't think most people would mind that seeing as it might make some people more outgoing and gregarious. It might also make some elements of EVE society more annoying too.. it would kind of be like the day the first killboard was ever publicized.. the advent of public anti-immersion stupidity.

I guess I don't have any concrete ideas on this subject one way or the other.

Ysabelle nKataros
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.14 16:06:00 - [7]

fighting a different person every day is going to make people more outgoing and gregarious? heheh.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.01.14 16:07:00 - [8]


Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.14 18:38:00 - [9]

Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
The day that EVE goes to a stupid level treadmill/grind is the day that I leave.

If you want WoW's ****ty skill system and the fun of grinding crappy monsters and idiotic crafts, go knock yourself out.

I play EVE because it doesnt have that kind of crap. If I wanted to play EQ CLONE #372: SHINY HAPPY MMORPG OF L33T, I'd go play it.

Well said and agreed.

Tadius Rhain
Kalear Fleet Systems
Posted - 2005.01.14 19:10:00 - [10]

Lygos: Danton's right, such a feature was around once... I remember using armour repairers I got my hull upgrades skill fully trained before I knew the feature existed. There was rumor about afterburner skill etc but iirc only hull upgrades actually changed. There were just a lot of rumors about. Perhaps Danton can tell us otherwise.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2005.01.15 02:28:00 - [11]

I just know I never trained my Hull Upgrades to lvl5, yet there it is...

Posted - 2005.01.15 10:00:00 - [12]

If you do research missions for an R&D agent, you gain a day's worth of research points for completing it. If you don't do the missions, you just get your regular day's worth. Not exactly the same thing I know, Razz

Aion Amarra
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.15 19:13:00 - [13]


The day EVE changes to an Experience system that is 100% Lbd (Learning by doing) I'll leave.

However I can see how a system that takes a bit of both could be interesting. I wouldn't want the current SP through time system altered, but I can see that bonus SP for some actions could be interesting. I just fear possible exploits.

I could see it through the agent system though. Perhaps have agents give out agent offers that trade LP to SP in skills related to the Agent type.

e.g. "Hey, gimme 500LP and I'll give you 5000 SP in any gunnery skill." Or "Hey, gimme 500LP and I'll give you 5000SP in a skill that has Mining as a prerequisite." Things like that.

Demian Sky
Posted - 2005.01.15 22:27:00 - [14]

Edited by: Demian Sky on 15/01/2005 22:27:23
I love EVE's skill system alot because not only does it change the focus of the game, but it's almost as if CCP has said, "Here, we'll do all the EXP grinding for you!"

But I think the point that most people are missing about "skillfulness" in EVE is that most of the "skill" comes from the player himself/herself. Sure, that shield recharge or turret operation skill may give you that extra five percent, but the largest advantage in EVE comes from the real experience that the player accumulates (you know, the kind that is inside the ACTUAL brain of the person playing). Okay, so maybe it isn't as gratifying as a number on your monitor under the title, "This is how POWERFUL you are," but it's a switch.

K'roth Manatir
Posted - 2005.01.16 01:48:00 - [15]

For the first 6-8 months of eve it was possilbe to get tiny boosts in sp by doing stuff related to that skill, mining was one. Jumping between system with cargo expanders/overdrives was another.
Each time you undocked in a ship you got like 10sp towards that ship skill but only like once per 10 mins.

The gains were tiny and only showed up on your char sheet after either a relog or DT I cant remember which. Some folk I know used to set thier chars to do 200+ jumps around safe space over night while they slept just to train hull upgrades.

ofc I only found out about this the day they took it out lol

ssj yerbs
LPG Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.16 09:33:00 - [16]

so who cares if ppl explote it like that guy did with 200 jumps per nite, that system has more advanteges then disadvantages

Deliz Seemack
Conics Corporation
Posted - 2005.01.18 16:17:00 - [17]

Other MMORPG have been able to create an environment where players were learning by doing without any exploit. I'm sure it would be possible with EVE.

Pandora Panda
Posted - 2005.01.18 21:06:00 - [18]

Originally by: Deliz Seemack
Other MMORPG have been able to create an environment where players were learning by doing without any exploit. I'm sure it would be possible with EVE.
They do something called a level grind. It is boring and *snip*

Edited - Wrangler

Nero Scuro
Jejaikaro Corporation
Posted - 2005.01.19 09:33:00 - [19]

It would be nice to have a system that rewarded players who actually played over those who never played, and luckily we have it. ISK.

Just think of ISK as a second 'stat', and bingo - you have a system that rewards you for skill, not time. Since ISK is needed for EVERYTHING, it may as well be another stat, and then the SP system on top of that helps balance things out by making sure a complete newb can't start owning vets by mining 24/7.

And people who say they don't want a grind - what do you call mining, or missions, or whatever it is you do to make ISK? I'd call it a grind, you just end up with ISK instead of EXP. =P

Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.01.19 09:50:00 - [20]

One idea for a different mmog, certainly not EVE, would be to borrow the xp over time model. Except, in a different game, lets say it's an elfs and bunnies affair, all the time is the same for everyone. At whatever point you join the game, you get the same amount of XP from the time the server was first started to that day to distribute through a bunch of very big and very diverse skill trees. On november 12th of 2005, every player in that game would have precisely one million xp.

Arguments that say early adopters ought to have an advantage are eerily similar to arguments that justify ebaying when you get right down to it. "I bought it so it's mine." In truth, the right to anything is granted by the larger community. Money is just a formal public admission to desert of some community service.

In such a theoretical environment, people are "equal" in that fundamental regard, but can become unequal according to what paths they choose and how many paths they want to pursue. In such a system, everyone would earn sp at the same rate, and it would give those developers a very clear model for the progression of inserting content.

EVE also couples the sp system with the isk system, which is really just another stat to increase and one which you can directly affect or abuse, however you prefer. Thus a dual system can be shown to be useful.

I think that in general, if xp or sp or whatever can be gained by environment or npc interaction in any game, it certainly needs to be at constant risk from npc or environment interaction. That is all that isk is really. It's funny that EVE doesn't see people griping about permadeath or whatnot when it comes to losing their bank balances. Funny and intriguing at the same time.

ssj yerbs
LPG Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.30 10:38:00 - [21]

or you could just get a couple of sp every time you do something like mining for example

Raata Fleet Command
Posted - 2005.01.30 18:08:00 - [22]

Lets get one thing straight the current system favours the do nots over the doers.
this is fundamentally wrong like any roleplay game the longer your avatar plays and experiences things in the game reality its skills improve.
if for what ever reason an avatar plays for less time its skills will be coraspondingly less developed.
This is not about fairness, the longer you actually spend playing Eve then you should get the benefit from that experience.

before those who cant/wont play so much get out of the pram answer this why should your avatar be just as skilled as someone who plays twice as much as you do?

The simple answer is you cant.


I also despise any form of XP system that favour mindles grinding such as found in SWG, where i might add i played for about 6 months as a medic, spending hours grining out medkits to used to heal people. The more i ground to make kits teh better i got at it the better kits i made the better i could heal people thus increasing my heal skills.
It was ****ing boring!!!!!!

A simple compromise to reward every successful use of any skills would be to award small amounts of trainng points to the relevant skill. As a skill increases in skill lvl (not training points) the awards become drastically less as what there is to learn gets smaller.

for example
A newish pilot has some basic gunnery and electronic skills
Gunnery lvl 2, small hybrid lvl 1, and targeting lvl 2.
this pilot fires and hits with a small hybrid weapon he is awarded 50 training points to be split between all the skills he has associated with and used to put the hit on the target.
In this case the points would be split between gunnery, small hybrid and targeting.
The points could be split evenly across the relevant skills its simple and as the skill level increases the small awards of training points will be les beneficial as the requirements for advancement get very steep the higher up the lvl you go.

For those who have played the old fantasy Ultima Online this idea is culled from that game, They dont try to impose some kind of false restrictions on skill advancement they alow those who play the game to get the full benefit of their investment of time, as their skill advancement is based soley on succesful actions equals skill increase. so you play you get better you dont play you remain as you are.

My suggestion alows those whos actions succeed to gain a small amount of training points towards the skills being used. It is not based on time played or time not played, it does not radically effect or change the way wetrain skills at the moment and it alows friends to help new pilots train skills up by being targets or whatever. And what is wrong with that anyway? that is the point of corporating, the point of making friends.
In UO only guild (eve read Corp.) mates could be used to train skills.

I dont want to have to grind to train skills but i want my game time to ount for skills advancement

This is a possible solution to both sides

Astrodynamic Innovations
Posted - 2005.01.30 18:14:00 - [23]

Originally by: Deliz Seemack

I don't want WoW's skill system and I don't want EVE to change radically. All I'm saying is that I would like to see a way to gain a small amount of skill points while playing.

EVE *DID* have that. It was taken out. Way to exploitable and marco prone.
I'm glad it was taken out.

Raata Fleet Command
Posted - 2005.01.30 19:19:00 - [24]

Edited by: Strikeclone on 30/01/2005 19:22:26

EVE *DID* have that. It was taken out. Way to exploitable and marco prone.
I'm glad it was taken out.

you dont solve the macro problem by removing every option or function that is exploitable by macroing. there would be nothing left.

the fact that a part of the game is exploited, does not justify removing it rather it justifys its protection from exploitation.

players in mmorpg should be rewarded for putting in the time and effort you want to play a game where your avatar gains experience without playing so much, then play some offline game were you can freeze and save your avatars advancement.

in eve every minute that you are using your skills successfully you should reap experience that will benefit you in the advancement in that skill/skills. that is fair.

i do not prepose to swing from the do littles as it is now to over benefit the do lots, but some measure of reward is obvious. if you cant of wont play so much dont be selfish against those who can or do play lots. they are working for and deserving of their advantage in experince their avatars should reflect this with increased skills based on what they have been doing.

I should mention that due to real life issues my avatar has been inactive for about 8 months real time. thanks to the current skill training system i have been able to keep my avatar almost continualy training. this is excellent and a good thing but i would expect to see those who have been playing for those 8 months to be ahead of me in some way (assuming we had similar starting points)

Grey Night
Posted - 2005.01.30 19:35:00 - [25]

I believe there is room for a skill based increase on use of the skill but it would add a ton of code and overhead to the current game.

First you need the system to only increase the skill when it is in use. For example if you are a PVP player it makes ZERO sense for a skill in mining to increase if you never mine.

So to do this the skill increase would have to be based on actual use of the skill this would require code to monitor that use.

Next you would have to balance the skill increase with the time based system so we do not have players living on the game and gaining a huge lead over the new players. THIS is the main strength of the EVE system over the level system, everyone beginner or veteran can enjoy the game.

As such lets use the example of say Light Ballistic Weapons. So we setup the skill that everytime you fire a light ballistic weapon you gain say 3 seconds toward the skill advance. I know this does not sound like much but it would add up fast. Now the code of the game would have to be modified to track the use of skills, what about 75 of them, for all players, thousands of them and keep the variables as well as track specific time and count.

Think about the MASSIVE code increase needed.

I would u\suggest rather a skill for the SHIP increase, reflecting crew. For having a ship for a set period of time, actual play time of the ship that is, you get a bonus in areas pertenant to the ship. For example a hauler might see a small speed boost 1% for 30 days of actual use (thats 24x30 not just using it for 10 minutes a day) as well as a small boost in cargo space. This reflects the crews skill at loading the ship and learning to coxe just a bit more out of the engines.

This would then make all ships very valuable since with experience the ship would get better. Imagine a Cruiser that has had it's crew and Captain for 6 months of constant warfare against a Battleship with a crew that had just stepped foot on it. Suddenly the use of multiple ships all the time for players and the throw away mentality of ships would vanish. Ships would now have a deep value and meaning to a player and players would treat the destruction of a ship as a big deal rather than a minor nucance..

Raata Fleet Command
Posted - 2005.01.30 20:02:00 - [26]

Grey Knight, let me attempt to explode you theory on the ammount of resources required to implement some kind of skill use skill improve system.

Firstly it was already an integral part of the game but was removed when some [email protected] exploited it. So it can be done without any real problem as far as the lag/programming goes. Its just the macroers and exploiters are once again spoiling things for the rest of us.

Secondly the aged but excellent game of Ultima Online does it with ancient technology and programming. I dont recall how many skills there were avaliable but it was a comparable number to what we have at the moment and it did it with far greater numbers of players.

I really dont understand why there are players who want to be exactly as powerful by playing little to those who play more.
I don't think that anyone is asking for some great advantage in anyway by requesting that their play time should effect their skill development.

It is not a strength that loyal active players are not rewarded for their efforts.

Do you prepose that if you mine for a day and I mine for a week that by some lack of the game programming that you should end up with as much minerals or wealth as I?

Because that is what we have only rather than minerals we have skills.

As i have stated the current skill system has served me well during my 8 month absents from online play i have been able to have my skills training managed by a corp mate until my return.
That is a strength that i will not be too far behind in avatar skills that my peers.

But would it not also be a strength of the game to reward in some tangible manner those players who put the effort in?

I work 12 hour shifts and have done for over two years now in all that time i was on Eve alot of my free time. I know players who choose not to play so often and yet they have just as much avatar skills as me? is that a strength? i think not.

Read my earlier post in this thread and then look at how many training points u need to raise a small hybrid skill from lvl one to level two, its around 1400. but to raise it from lvl three to lvl four its a further 45000 points.
so how long would it take to macro that advancement from lvl one to lvl four under my system. bareing in mind that the small amount of training points awarded for each successfull skill use would be divided amoung the skills used. assume that 50 points were awarded and divided between 4 or 5 skills that around 10 points per skill, thats 4500 successful uses. and thats assuming that each use results in the same advancement but as stated as skill level increases the award of training points is lessened tapering off.

this is a massive roleplay game accurate and detailed character development should be at its core.

Brother Edward
Posted - 2005.01.30 21:56:00 - [27]

Edited by: Brother Edward on 30/01/2005 21:57:00
I think the idea mentioned of exploring a ship experience systems deserves a deeper look...


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