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LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: LindaSpartan 058 on 06/12/2010 10:00:50
Im sure a lot of you know about the market scam where someone finds some rare item, puts up a sell order 10 or so items say 40 mil a peice. Then they put up a buy order a few jumps away for 20 ish items at 45 mil a peice. So being a trader, one thinks they can just move it and make a quick buck. Well of course the minimum volume for the buy order was more than are for sale in the Market anywhere. Recognizing this, I built enought items to fill the order along with the items already for sale on the market. I check every couple seconds to make sure the buy order is still up. When i finally go to sell the items. It says the order is no longer valid. I'm out hundreds of millions of isk. What does CCP have to say?

Posting GM correspondence is not allowed on the forums. Spitfire

Apparently they Don't like what it said. Basically the GM said it is a feature working as intended so there is nothing to be done.

I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam. I knew what it was, and I thought surely there would be a risk on the scammer's end to doing such a thing. So i tried to make it backfire on him. But low and behold there was no way the scammer could go wrong in this instance. I end up with 23 uselss items because of a glitch.



I don't understand how putting up fake buy orders by taking advantage of a hole in the system isn't an exploit. Unlike most scams where if your careful you'll catch it, there is no way for a player to know that an order is fake. Now i know there will be plenty of you who say I'm crying over it and I should have been more careful. But please tell me how i could have been any more careful? And also please explain to me how this can not be considered an exploit. If someone trains margin training, and doesn't have enough isk to cover the order, shouldn't the order expire, have a warning of some kind, or at the very least, make the scammers wallet go into the negative? This is an easy fix but CCP knows about it but refuses to do anything. And this lack of caring on their part is why players are quitting left and right.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:36:00 - [2]
 

Welcome to EVE. Scamming within the rules of the game has always been allowed.

JitPC
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:37:00 - [3]
 

How could you have been more careful?

You don't "beat" scams by being careful. You avoid the scam entirely. That's how you could have been more careful. You thought you could beat the scammer, and you failed. You knowingly took a risk, and failed. Your fault 100%.

LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:37:00 - [4]
 

I know, and I'm not camplaining that scamming exists, or that they arent punished. But How is it they consider that an intended feature. Theres no way to tell if an order is fake.

Pyea
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:40:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Pyea on 06/12/2010 09:40:10
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I'm out hundreds of millions of isk...I end up with 23 uselss items because of a glitch.



Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam.


You keep telling yourself that.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:40:00 - [6]
 

Posting GM stuff on the forums is a good idea, c/d!

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
If someone trains margin training, and doesn't have enough isk to cover the order, shouldn't the order expire, have a warning of some kind, or at the very least, make the scammers wallet go into the negative?
These would make the skill pointless, add huge overhead to displaying market orders, and bite 'legitimate' users of the skill in the ass respectively.

So no.

Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:45:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
But please tell me how i could have been any more careful?

1) Learn game mechanics.
2) Learn about common scams and how they work. You fell for a very common scam.

Quote:
And this lack of caring on their part is why players are quitting left and right.

Any players quitting for the reasons you are whining about are the ones that Eve is better off without.

Also, I call dibs on your stuff.

Sid Zero
State Wh0re Academy
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:49:00 - [9]
 

If the buy order falls through, you still have your goods.

What if the buy order was legit, but someone else filled it a second before you? Then you'd still be stuck with a load of worthless\overpriced goods.

1) Buy orders: no guarantees.
2) Don't ever pay more for something than it is worth.

LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sid Zero
If the buy order falls through, you still have your goods.

What if the buy order was legit, but someone else filled it a second before you? Then you'd still be stuck with a load of worthless\overpriced goods.

1) Buy orders: no guarantees.
2) Don't ever pay more for something than it is worth.


Thats true, and if that were the case. So be it, it would be my fault. But this was not the case, it margin trading "working as intended" so in that respect, i'm off to train up margin trading since thats a much easier way to make money then doing it legit.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.06 09:58:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
Im sure a lot of you know about the market scam where someone finds some rare item, puts up a sell order 10 or so items say 40 mil a peice. Then they put up a buy order a few jumps away for 20 ish items at 45 mil a peice. So being a trader, one thinks they can just move it and make a quick buck. Well of course the minimum volume for the buy order was more than are for sale in the Market anywhere. Recognizing this, I built enought items to fill the order along with the items already for sale on the market. I check every couple seconds to make sure the buy order is still up. When i finally go to sell the items. It says the order is no longer valid. I'm out hundreds of millions of isk. What does CCP have to say?

Posting GM correspondence is not allowed on the forums. Spitfire

I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam. I knew what it was, and I thought surely there would be a risk on the scammer's end to doing such a thing. So i tried to make it backfire on him. But low and behold there was no way the scammer could go wrong in this instance. I end up with 23 uselss items because of a glitch.



I don't understand how putting up fake buy orders by taking advantage of a hole in the system isn't an exploit. Unlike most scams where if your careful you'll catch it, there is no way for a player to know that an order is fake. Now i know there will be plenty of you who say I'm crying over it and I should have been more careful. But please tell me how i could have been any more careful? And also please explain to me how this can not be considered an exploit. If someone trains margin training, and doesn't have enough isk to cover the order, shouldn't the order expire, have a warning of some kind, or at the very least, make the scammers wallet go into the negative? This is an easy fix but CCP knows about it but refuses to do anything. And this lack of caring on their part is why players are quitting left and right.


You could have sold the items to him for a price that would have let you take the escrow amount. Better than nothing though, especially if you have the items already lying around. The stuff that these people try to sell are worthless otherwise, so if you can sell them at a price that lets you snatch up their escrow you win.

LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:02:00 - [12]
 

It has a minimum amount to fill the order, thats how the scam works. You can't fill it unless you have lots of the item, which usually don't exist because they built the item themselves.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:04:00 - [13]
 

OP does have a point. While scams are a tradition in EvE, the problem with this one is that you cannot detect it. It's not like renaming a Raven to "Navy Issue", promising to return 2x the amount given, or "buying" Elite Drone AIs. In each of those cases the scam relies on victim overlooking something on a contract or idiotically trusting local chat. This particular margin trading scam seems to be completely hidden though. It's built into the trade system with no way to detect it. Not exactly sporting.

Maybe if there were a flag/color on the buy order that indicated "margin trading" it wouldn't be so bad.


Sinister Dextor
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:04:00 - [14]
 

Scammers rely on you thinking that you think you are cleverer than them. That's what they offer, not so much the chance of easy isk, but the chance to get one over some 'idiot' who has made a mistake, the chance for you to prove how ;smart' you are. When it backfires, it smarts don't it? It's not the isk, it's your ego is hurting m8, suck it up.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:05:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 06/12/2010 10:10:46
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
Well of course the minimum volume for the buy order was more than are for sale in the Market anywhere. Recognizing this, I built enought items to fill the order along with the items already for sale on the market


Theres your problem there. The minimum volume is there for a reason.

Margin Trading skill
L0 = 100% escrow
L1 = 75% escrow
L2 = 56.25% escrow
L3 = 42.18% escrow
L4 = 31.64% escrow
L5 = 23.73% escrow

The scam will work if minimum volume price > 23.73% of the total escrow value for someone with max Margin Trading skill.

Simple example :

Buying 10x Pax Amarria@10mil
The escrow for the buy order = 100 * 0.2373 = 23.73mil
In order to ensure the above buy order fails, minimum volume = 3 (which requires 30mil in escrow)

It goes without saying that the scammer will also need to ensure that the wallet he used to set up the buy order has zero isk in it.

Apocryphon
Minmatar
InterSun Freelance
The Forsaken.
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:06:00 - [16]
 

Everyone who did not buy the items involved..."beat" the scam.
They were careful enough.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:08:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 06/12/2010 10:12:05
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
It has a minimum amount to fill the order, thats how the scam works. You can't fill it unless you have lots of the item, which usually don't exist because they built the item themselves.


How did they get lots of the item if they don't exist?

Consider that other people could use the same mechanism to get lots of the same item. I saw someone using faction spawn tags to do this the other day and that seemed like a risky proposition, because everyone (in 0.0) has a bucket load of tags like that.

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
the problem with this one is that you cannot detect it.


You can detect it by doing as little as 5 seconds of research into what they are selling.

Quote:

Buying 10x Pax Amarria@10mil
The escrow for the buy order = 100 * 0.2373 = 23.73mil
In order to ensure the above buy order fails, minimum volume = 3 (which requires 30mil in escrow)



You can put up a sell order that will match it though. I will sell 3 copies at 7 million isk each - This gets you 21 million isk for an item that isn't actually worth anything.


LindaSpartan 058
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 06/12/2010 10:12:05
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
It has a minimum amount to fill the order, thats how the scam works. You can't fill it unless you have lots of the item, which usually don't exist because they built the item themselves.


How did they get lots of the item if they don't exist?

Consider that other people could use the same mechanism to get lots of the same item. I saw someone using faction spawn tags to do this the other day and that seemed like a risky proposition, because everyone (in 0.0) has a bucket load of tags like that.

Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
the problem with this one is that you cannot detect it.


You can detect it by doing as little as 5 seconds of research into what they are selling.

Quote:

Buying 10x Pax Amarria@10mil
The escrow for the buy order = 100 * 0.2373 = 23.73mil
In order to ensure the above buy order fails, minimum volume = 3 (which requires 30mil in escrow)



You can put up

a sell order that will match it though. I will sell 3 copies at 7 million isk each - This gets you 21 million isk for an item that isn't actually worth anything.


I did research. I found out it was a worthless rig that I could build for cheap. Thats what I went through with it. What i didn't know was you could put up fake buy orders. The way he set it up, there was no risk on his part. As someone else explained earlier, there is no way the order can be filled, yet it will stay up until someone tries.



Lutz Major
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I did research. I found out it was a worthless rig that I could build for cheap. Thats what I went through with it. What i didn't know was you could put up fake buy orders. The way he set it up, there was no risk on his part. As someone else explained earlier, there is no way the order can be filled, yet it will stay up until someone tries.
and again you proof, that you did not make any research. You thought, you could make a quick dime.

You greed blinded you, young padawan.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058

I did research. I found out it was a worthless rig that I could build for cheap. Thats what I went through with it. What i didn't know was you could put up fake buy orders. The way he set it up, there was no risk on his part. As someone else explained earlier, there is no way the order can be filled, yet it will stay up until someone tries.



If they are buying 10 items and offering 100 mill (minus margin trading), you can sell them those 10 ten items for 3 million each (which means they have enough in escrow to cover the sale.)

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:33:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
You can put up a sell order that will match it though. I will sell 3 copies at 7 million isk each - This gets you 21 million isk for an item that isn't actually worth anything.


Yep, but a good scammer always consider the net profit.
Anything else is a bonus.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
You can put up a sell order that will match it though. I will sell 3 copies at 7 million isk each - This gets you 21 million isk for an item that isn't actually worth anything.


Yep, but a good scammer always consider the net profit.
Anything else is a bonus.


If the item is worthless and you just happen to have it around, you get both the money and satisfaction of hitting a scammer in the pocket book. If you 'research' it for about 0 seconds and think you are about to hit it big, you are going to have a significantly worse day.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:46:00 - [23]
 


Derelicht
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
CCP's response

Umad OP?


CCP really made a video in response to him, and put it on youtube? Wow.

Buga Buga
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:05:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I knew how the scam works and I got scammed and I thought I should come here and cry about and let everyone know I knew how the scam worked but still fell for it.

Interesting story.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:14:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/12/2010 11:14:54
Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
I don't understand how putting up fake buy orders by taking advantage of a hole in the system isn't an exploit.
It is, or rather, it would be if such a thing were to happen. The problem here is that there was no hole in the system that was taken advantage of. Everything is working as intended.
Quote:
Unlike most scams where if your careful you'll catch it, there is no way for a player to know that an order is fake.
And yet you recognised it for what it was (because, let's face it, it is entirely possible and in fact quite easy to spot it, just like you did), and willingly dove head-long into it…
Quote:
I cannot stress enough that I did not "fall" for the intended scam. […] I end up with 23 uselss items because of a glitch..
What glitch? It rather sounds like you did fall for it. Willingly.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:45:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: LindaSpartan 058
And this lack of caring on their part is why players are quitting left and right.


Speaking of which...

Your possessions; bequeath them unto me, forthwith.

Eastman Color
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:53:00 - [28]
 

I thought I was a clever but still got scammed.... qq

HTFU?

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2010.12.06 12:00:00 - [29]
 

ahem,

Welcome to eve online. where trust is the most valuable trade product.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.12.06 12:15:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
You can detect it by doing as little as 5 seconds of research into what they are selling.
Because nobody ever pays more for an item than it's worth? Come on.

I appreciate the fact that you are desperately defending the scam. Odds are, you probably use it. But if even the warnings/indicators of a margin buy order were included, the scam would still work. It preys on the stupid, and there are plenty of stupid people in EvE. An indicator just makes it fair.

TBH, I'd be more concerned about the potential of market manipulation via margin buy orders. Place numerous unfunded hi-minimum margin buys to jack up the perceived price of items. Hopefully the trade system doesn't calculate margin buys into the average price... but this is CCP.



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