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blankseplocked [Fed] Understanding the Sansha Threat
 
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:34:00 - [31]
 

First, I would like to thank Officer Baleene for his report.

Your analysis, in conjunction with what Cosmopolite has written is pretty much what we in the Kingdom have been able to determine. There are some specific points that need to be addressed, but they are contained in other GalNet posts and Iíll deal with them there.

I will say that many points of the analysis are far from new. I suppose the inclusion of them here will serve to encapsulate what has been known for months. Sad though that so many Federation citizens had to die before your Navy caught up.


Next, as to the concerns of Ms. Rhianon. If I thought that the path to the Nationís ultimate defeat lay in the destruction of the Minmatar people, your head would already be on a spike. As it stands, pilots of the Empire, the State and the Federation have been able to find ways to work together, despite our current states of war. The Republic Elders though seem incapable or completely unwilling to stop their militia from attacking pilots who try to aid in the defense of the Minmatar people. If the Republic feels it can defend itself without outside help, then it may be a self-fulfilling prophecy that the Republic and Nation will die together. It would be a terrible loss to the rest of the Matari people but yes, in the end it would be worth it.

What is more evil? On one hand there is an Empire, that despite a state of war, so loves the Matari people that it is willing to risk the lives of itís own to protect it. On the other, we have a government that would rather see Matari lives lost to the Nation, then swallow itís pride and allow assistance from the outside. You are fed lies by your Elders; these lies born of spite and pride. Your Elders would rather sacrifice you then admit that maybe life within the warm embrace of Amarr is in fact better than starving, cold under an illusion of freedom.

A few hundred years ago, my King had cause to rebel against the Empire. We have fought hard for our autonomy, but we have never forgotten our dedication to the basic principle that we must work to make things better for our people. Why canít your Elders find a similar path? The onus is on your government. If you want to stand with us against the Nation, then you must learn to bend before youíre forced to the point of breaking.


Finally, to Verone. You ask some very interesting questions. As I see it, they can all be summed up in the following statement: It is none of your business. You donít get to moralize to the rest of us while exhibiting behavior that is equally as reprehensible as the Nation. Your words, your opinions and anything you represent are a zero factor as long as you continue to be a parasite to the rest of us. You say you donít care? Fine. Then quit whining about the things you say you donít care about. If you want your opinion to matter, then man up, grab a gun and stand the line. But you wonít. No. You suffer the same sin of pride that the Matari Elders do. You will continue to squat in your patch of space, picking off the easy targets and eventually youíll either come crawling to one side or the other or youíll be crushed in-between. Your mouth speaks of freedom, but your breath reeks of fear.




Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:45:00 - [32]
 

Oh save us your pathetic propaganda.

The Amarrian government has been protecting its people from Sansha abduction no more rigorously or effectively than the Republic does. All four empire fail at this task more or less equally. Actually when it comes to your points about our Elders I note that the Great Wildlands region has been free from Sansha attack to date. Perhaps the Nation suspects that the Elders would be more active in defense of their people?

As for your Empire's professed care for Matari lives, they did not attempt to prevent you Khanid lackeys from placing a million slaves in harms way simply to defend evacuated infrastructure. Not to mention the degradation and agony countless slaves of Matari and other origins face every day throughout Amarrian aligned space.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:55:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri


I am Brutor. I am Matari. I am Human. No more need be said.




Well spoken.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:00:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 06/12/2010 18:00:22
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk


As it stands, pilots of the Empire, the State and the Federation have been able to find ways to work together, despite our current states of war. The Republic Elders though seem incapable or completely unwilling to stop their militia from attacking pilots who try to aid in the defense of the Minmatar people.



I'm sorry, Pilot Mokk but the Empire has opened fire on Matari and other pilots who have come to the defense of its citizens as well. This statement you have used is completely biased and entirely irrelevant.

The fact of the matter is that the various empires are looking after their own interests and will continue to do so. Sansha is just another nation vying for power as far as the empires are concerned.

I am not discrediting your argument that it is folly for The Republic to fire on those trying to help, but you should at least be truthful and indicate that the Empire is doing exactly the same thing. It's folly no matter what side is doing it.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:30:00 - [35]
 

Slavak:

Itís not about propaganda. A wise Khanid once said, ďWar is not a question of who is right, but who is left.Ē

While numbers may indicate a similar amount of citizens lost, this is by far a much lower percentage of the Imperial Gross Population. The Empire could sustain the loss of ten times the amount of people and still not suffer as much as the citizens of the Republic are suffering. Keep in mind too, that the entirety of the Kingdom is as yet untouched. If you add our might to that of the greater Empire, that gives the Empire an even greater margin of acceptable loss. I could certainly see the Empire being able to stand alone against the Nation. The State and the Federation probably could as well, though it would cost either dearly. The Republic does not have the population or the resources to stand alone.

At this point it would be foolish for any government to consider going it alone because even though victory would be assured for most of us, we are trying to preserve the lives of our citizens. It is a shame that the Elders cannot say the same.

Of the million troops that we mustered in defense of the EmpireÖwell, we were there to defend the Empire. Of course our help wasnít turned away. You should know though, that these troops were once criminals or prisoners of war. It is just that they pay for their crimes by defending that which they once preyed upon. Further, not all of these slaves were of Matari origin.

I am curious. Over the past several months, what has UíK done to defend anyone from the threat of the Nation?

I will say that youíre right that the Nation hasnít made any attacks on the Wilds. Thatís because there is nothing out there that they desire. I invite you to read the beginning of this thread. There you will find a nice report on what the Nation has been up to. Oh, wait. Most of your people canít enter high-sec because of all those acts of piracy and terrorism and whatnotÖHrmÖok... If you really, really want to ĎfreeĒ your ďpeopleĒ from the Nation, youíll have to invade Stain.

And wouldnít that be fun to watch?


Valadeus:

If you note carefully, there is a major difference. Republic forces will fire on assisting forces before and even during an attack. On the few occasions where the Empire has had to fire on visiting forces, it was because those pilots had used the attack as a cover for criminal behavior after victory had already been won. What was done in these cases were either acts of self-defense or law-enforcement.




Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:44:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 06/12/2010 18:45:37
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk

If you note carefully, there is a major difference. Republic forces will fire on assisting forces before and even during an attack. On the few occasions where the Empire has had to fire on visiting forces, it was because those pilots had used the attack as a cover for criminal behavior after victory had already been won. What was done in these cases were either acts of self-defense or law-enforcement.




Sinjin...I for one can atest to the inaccuracy of that statement...having one of my own ships blown from under me enroute to assist during a short stint in the Republic Fleet.



Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:37:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Sinjin Mokk

I am curious. Over the past several months, what has UíK done to defend anyone from the threat of the Nation?



We tend not to make a big deal about it on GalNet so I forgive you for not knowing. Ushra'Khan have been involved in the destruction of half a dozen True Creations carriers, four True Power Chimeras and a True Power Wyvern. In addition to numerous Nation battleships and frigates of course. At several of these incursions we were able to reach in time we were the single group fielding most pilots.
While not as ever-present at these attacks as some more dedicated groups we do have other slavers to fight in addition to the Sansha.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:37:00 - [38]
 

Ms. Callibri.

I am sorry for that loss then. Contact me privately, we'll discuss what happened and see what can be done.


Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:40:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
Ms. Callibri.

I am sorry for that loss then. Contact me privately, we'll discuss what happened and see what can be done.




It was some time ago Mr.Mokk, just a fact that begged pointing out.


Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.12.06 19:41:00 - [40]
 

Mr. Slavak,

Well thank you. While it is a rare occurance, I'll stand and admit my error in this case. Good show and congratulations to your pilots in their efforts against the Nation.

I'll have to try and pay a little more attention. This should not be too difficult as there isn't that great a threat from the Republican side of things.


Brandrsun
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:05:00 - [41]
 

I think these are the intial stages of a large scale infiltration into Concord/capsuleer comunication infrastructure. The intent would be to place forged intel and to misdirect FCORD and other opposing assets.

Wynteryth Fett
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:10:00 - [42]
 

What I fail to see anyone mention is that Slave 32152 and Heavenbound02 both had their carriers destroyed PRIOR to the uplinks being established. I also believe that Slave 32152 was killed.

Yet, in both cases, the UPLINKS still occured.

I also have yet to see anyone explain how the Wyvern withstood the damage of nearly 200 ships attacking it. The lowest it's shields got were about 70%. With as much firepower as we had, those shields and that carrier should have been mincemeat. Yet, they weren't.


Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:17:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Wynteryth Fett
What I fail to see anyone mention is that Slave 32152 and Heavenbound02 both had their carriers destroyed PRIOR to the uplinks being established. I also believe that Slave 32152 was killed.

Yet, in both cases, the UPLINKS still occured.

I don't believe I saw a wreck of Slave 32152's carrier, despite claims that it was destroyed. It also appeared to disappear in half structure. Are you certain they didn't escape?

Originally by: Wynteryth Fett
I also have yet to see anyone explain how the Wyvern withstood the damage of nearly 200 ships attacking it. The lowest it's shields got were about 70%. With as much firepower as we had, those shields and that carrier should have been mincemeat. Yet, they weren't.



Spatial distortions typical of large battles often encountered in nullsec can cause severe problems with ships' systems, including turret and missile launch control. See the battle for D-G for example.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:23:00 - [44]
 

I have been asked to clarify that our pilots (in Gradient or in EM in general) are by no means under orders to refrain from traveling to Sansha raid sites and engaging with the raiders, regardless of where these raids occur. The Sansha are considered hostile, and while I personally do not think that prioritizing shooting Sansha in Genesis over shooting Amarr invaders and pirates in the Republic makes much sense, individual pilots and commanders make their own judgment calls. As long as who they shoot is a red, fine.

I do not think we had anyone on site in this attack, but we have had pilots travel to hostile territory for to kill Sansha before. And been shot by said hostiles while at it, indeed.

Elsebeth

Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:40:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri

I am Scorpion Clan. I am Brutor. I am Matari. I am Human. No more need be said.



One more thing should be said.

You are Free.

Wynteryth Fett
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:42:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Borza Slavak

I don't believe I saw a wreck of Slave 32152's carrier, despite claims that it was destroyed. It also appeared to disappear in half structure. Are you certain they didn't escape?


Borza - Please keep your blathering to yourself. I don't care what you saw or didn't see. I know the message I got and the kill mails that others got.

Originally by: Borza Slavak
Spatial distortions typical of large battles often encountered in nullsec can cause severe problems with ships' systems, including turret and missile launch control. See the battle for D-G for example.


As for your BS on "spatial distortions", we weren't in NULL SEC. We were in LOW sec. And people don't get damage messages if their weapons miss..




Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:47:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 06/12/2010 20:48:02
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Syn Callibri

I am Scorpion Clan. I am Brutor. I am Matari. I am Human. No more need be said.



One more thing should be said.

You are Free.


Thank you Borza...I took that as a given, I should know better. There are still those that think of us as runaway slaves.


Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:49:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Wynteryth Fett

Originally by: Borza Slavak
Spatial distortions typical of large battles often encountered in nullsec can cause severe problems with ships' systems, including turret and missile launch control. See the battle for D-G for example.


As for your BS on "spatial distortions", we weren't in NULL SEC. We were in LOW sec. And people don't get damage messages if their weapons miss..



I was there. The effects on modules and weapons were identical to those typically found with spatial distortions.
You assume they are linked to security status rather than events which tend to happen primarily in nullsec? How very obtuse.


As for 'killmails' I haven't seen any such record on any of the publicly available reliable databases. Despite them showing almost all (or all?) of the carriers lost by True Creations and True Power.

Wynteryth Fett
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Borza Slavak

I was there. The effects on modules and weapons were identical to those typically found with spatial distortions.
You assume they are linked to security status rather than events which tend to happen primarily in nullsec? How very obtuse.


As for 'killmails' I haven't seen any such record on any of the publicly available reliable databases. Despite them showing almost all (or all?) of the carriers lost by True Creations and True Power.


Borza - Your an ignorant crackpot who only believes in stopping slavery. Saying that you think would be an insult to everyone with a brain because you proved in chat that you can't think. You only are worried about the here and now. You can't be bothered to actually look at the big picture of things. So, I am not surprised that you don't believe something anyone else might say that contradicts your blathering.

I don't care if you claim to have been there. I was there. I know what my readouts said and what my combat log said. I know what other's combat logs said because I had others from my alliance there in the FCORD fleet.

You give all Minmitari a bad name, Borza.


Zebes
Caldari
Ningishzida Research and Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Wynteryth Fett

As for your BS on "spatial distortions", we weren't in NULL SEC. We were in LOW sec. And people don't get damage messages if their weapons miss..



Spatial distortions to not require that you be in nullsec. They simply require that there be sufficient people on the battlefield. They are associated with nullsec simply because the massive fleets required are more common there.

Regardless, they did occur. There were several hundred people in the system. My weapons ceased functioning properly. I credit the wyvern's survival to these distortions. Ironically, I also credit the survival of my bomber to these distortions after I was fired upon by the CVA fleet - but their guns never struck me a second time while I took the time to warp away.

That said, I would happily sacrifice a bomber to CVA if the Wyvern went down in the process, but no such luck.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:37:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
Finally, to Verone. You ask some very interesting questions. As I see it, they can all be summed up in the following statement: It is none of your business. You donít get to moralize to the rest of us while exhibiting behavior that is equally as reprehensible as the Nation. Your words, your opinions and anything you represent are a zero factor as long as you continue to be a parasite to the rest of us. You say you donít care? Fine. Then quit whining about the things you say you donít care about. If you want your opinion to matter, then man up, grab a gun and stand the line. But you wonít. No. You suffer the same sin of pride that the Matari Elders do. You will continue to squat in your patch of space, picking off the easy targets and eventually youíll either come crawling to one side or the other or youíll be crushed in-between. Your mouth speaks of freedom, but your breath reeks of fear.


If I ever start to give a **** about your worthless opinion, I'll offer you a more reasonable response. Feel free to keep yapping like a junk yard dog until then.


Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:21:00 - [52]
 

He's right actually. Like when I attempted to call you out about your pilots harassing folk on the way to Oruse, you answer was that "you don't give a **** about Nation".

Whereas, here, you suddenly do. Make your mind up.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:40:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
He's right actually. Like when I attempted to call you out about your pilots harassing folk on the way to Oruse, you answer was that "you don't give a **** about Nation".

Whereas, here, you suddenly do. Make your mind up.


Are you still yapping? I'm surprised you can speak given the fact every time someone from the Federal Administration opens their mouth and lets out a few words you're on your knees.

You attempted to call me out, and you failed horribly and made yourself look like a total tool due to your delusions of grandeur and you total cluelessness regarding our political position and operations.

Just because I don't give a **** about Nation, it doesn't mean I can't call people out when they're doing a ****-poor job of mounting a defence against them.

I accept the fact that I'm no-one to the vast majority of people other than an outlaw, scumbag and general pain in the ass. I'm happy with that, underestimation leads to complacency on their part, which improves my bottom line and makes my job easier.

The sooner that you too drop the Luminaire General bull**** and accept the fact that yourself and the whole FDU are nothing more than pawns, with plastic ranks and no real Military responsibility other than "go here, shoot this, minion", you'll start to realise that you're in the wrong line of work.

Take a leaf out of Soter's book if you want to actually make a difference, and stop sucking at the teat of a corrupt and hopeless Senate.

Keep trolling General, keep crowing about your grief, keep trying your luck at bedding my employees.

It's all very amusing to watch you make one publicity relations ****-up after another.


Omune Balenne
Federation Navy
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:00:00 - [54]
 

Replying to this is going to be like navigating a minefield, but I'm cleared for open comms, so I will give it a shot. Stay tuned for updates and replies.

Omune Balenne
Federation Navy
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:29:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Major JSilva
Thank you for stating intelligence we were already aware of.


There was, I would have thought, at least some new information in that packet, and do keep in mind that some pilots are less well informed than others. I understand that you, Major, are of the status and position to have a full overview of intel that has made it around the capsuleer circuit, but not everyone is so well looped in. I would strongly advise against your current line of action, since that same status and position you project can so very easily lead to a culture of secrecy when it comes to the sharing of intelligence. If we have shared things that have long been known by some, then so be it. It can never harm us to have intel confirmed by multiple sources.

Lastly, I would add that it was not easy to convince my superiors to release what we had compiled, even though much of it was, as you say, common knowledge. Perhaps you should consider such things, and the wisdom of giving these same people a reason to argue against the further release of information.

Omune Balenne
Federation Navy
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:36:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
It would be simplicity itself to set up a listening post within each settled system with gravimetric detectors. For that matter, even just monitoring the local communications channels would do, since the Sansha don't know how to shut up. It would also be simplicity itself to communicate any incursions to an intelligence channel capsuleers could subscribe to. There are many already, such as "SYNE Public".

But you don't. CONCORD doesn't, the Navies don't.


To quickly address your concerns: Only CONCORD and capsule-based systems remain capable of identifying attacks as they happen, and CONCORD systems are limited in that regard. I will pass on your recommendations to Cmdr. Dorgiers, as I understand he will know better what to do about them.

And now, to speak more broadly, and hopefully help all of you understand some things with more clarity.

When the Sansha attack a system they do more than just jump in with a fleet. The first thing to go is the stargate relays, and this is well before any wormholes are detected. These relays are the nerve centers of inter-system communication. Sansha isn't screwing around. He knows exactly how to cripple us, and every time, he does just that. They donít ďshut up" in local comms because they effectively own them at that point - the only listeners that remain connected are us capsuleers. They simply don't care about using the channel for operations, or perhaps even want us to know exactly what they're doing. Few can outmatch Kuvakeiís hubris, nor his love for mind games.

The point is, these attacks on CONCORD and empire infrastructure are extremely sophisticated, and becoming increasingly so with every new assault. When an attack happens these days, we only know about it because an entire sector of our comms grid just shut down and the stargates went crazy. I canít get into the details since we are now discussing matters of national security here, but there are good reasons why we cannot so often achieve the simple things you ask for. It is because, so much of the time, we are prevented from doing so. When each attack creates gravely serious exposures in fundamental security systems...you have a situation where each empire has more to worry about than just a single attack. On that, I really can say no more. Itís not the sort of thing anyone likes to talk about.

What remains obvious at this point is that capsule technology is the only entirely secure thing left. My own theories here areÖnot exactly conventional. Again, a topic weíll explore in-depth given more evidence. I will say for now though, that I donít believe Kuvakei has left capsule tech alone because he lacks the ability. He is a manipulator on the grandest scale, or at least attempts to be. Look at Kyonoke. I donít trust the current situation to stay this way forever. Remember, the last time CONCORD was under attack, it wasnít because they were the target. It was because they were in the way of it.

Having said all this let me restate that the most effective counter at this time remains the one already described: capsuleer superiority at wormhole entrances. Empire forces at ground level are not subjected to the same levels of interference found out of orbit, and have become increasingly effective at shooting dropships down before they can do any harm. This two-pronged counter has repeatedly proven to be our best counter yet, and weíre improving upon interdiction tactics with every operation. If capsuleers can just slow the deployment of dropships down to manageable levels, we can all but guarantee the safety of our people.

At the end of the day, we are all - all of us - fighting the Sansha. Let us focus on the areas where we can each do our best work.

Omune Balenne
Federation Navy
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:38:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Why is a Federation Navy officer providing an AAR, after apparently providing support, for an attack in Genesis, where similar attacks in the Republic have gone without any apparent notice and support from the Gallentean Federation?

If the idea is that we are supposed to "put aside our differences" in the face of this new threat, is it also the idea that the Republic systems currently falling into Empire hands in Metropolis are a non-issue to the Federation Navy now, in the face of this new threat?


Pilot Rhiannon, I cannot stress enough that these were not at all "similar attacks" as you say. This alone should explain our presence there, and the fact that we were not alone, either.

FIO agents reported an accidental de-cloak of one covert unit, who had somehow taken exactly the same observation point as a Crow with Kaalakiota Corporate ID tags. The agent reports that both sides quickly cleared each other and re-cloaked. Neither side engaged. Later, that same agent captured valuable intel on the destruction of a True Power Chimera. I hope that says enough about the importance of this particular operation...and of the practical value to putting aside our differences, if the moment demands it.

Victoria Stecker
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.12.08 03:06:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Omune Balenne


FIO agents reported an accidental de-cloak of one covert unit, who had somehow taken exactly the same observation point as a Crow with Kaalakiota Corporate ID tags. The agent reports that both sides quickly cleared each other and re-cloaked. Neither side engaged. Later, that same agent captured valuable intel on the destruction of a True Power Chimera. I hope that says enough about the importance of this particular operation...and of the practical value to putting aside our differences, if the moment demands it.



Who the hell puts a cloaking device on a Crow?

Besides, you know... us. ugh

Ber Kan
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.08 03:17:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Omune Balenne
FIO agents reported an accidental de-cloak of one covert unit..



Im wondering...did you see my tengu?

Major JSilva
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.08 03:29:00 - [60]
 

Officer Omune Balenne

I have access to intel and "higher level" channels and that as much intel I am willing to go to. Baleenne I have been working with CONCORD, with Agent Haeldone Dorgiers. I was unaware of the FIO working on such measures.If your willing to help us you can contact me or Julianus Soter via private coms or eve mailing us might help. We'd be willing to collaberate after we get some level of trust?
You wanna share intel were willing to though not over public galnet communications.

Silva


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