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Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.06 15:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Supercarriers can be countered in fleets with adaption of tackiks. For example the 'firewall' composition could be used against them quite easily. Fighters and fighterbombers are mean, but losing em by the dozen greatly irritates pilots fielding them. All you need is support wing with proper overview settings and if they are any good they will pop them 5 per volley (one for each squad).

That out of way - I personally dont like superscapitals and believe that EVE would be better place without titans and supercarriers/moms. Titans are used just like mobile jump bridges and supercarriers (with increasing number of them in the fleets) are making dreads kinda pointless. At least supercarriers cant shoot POS towers yet. Well other than Sentry drones ofc, but those are not that good at it.

Overall though I dont buy the mantra that battleships fleets are not used bcos of supercarriers. If that would be the case we would see on a daily basis 100 carrier drops to 'decide a battle' - it takes the resources of roughly 4 supercarriers to field a 100 carrier blob.



That's because the hot drops have already happened. People have already learned their lesson. Now that there are no more BS fleets to hot drop there are fewer hot drops happening. Battleship fleets = hot drop me. Hot dropping a BC fleet doesn't guarantee as many kills. They're faster, they align faster, and they still put up a decent tank. Hot dropping a BS fleet means you can catch just about everything.

Originally by: Carniflex

The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers.



SCs need to be bubbled to be caught and they take forever to chew through. Once the bubblers are down they happily jump away. Low sec is especially easy for them because only a scripted hictor can point them. No hictor? No problem. Recall drones, jump away, laugh.

Originally by: Carniflex

Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)


Yes, Drakes are very good at it. Battleships have ****ty tracking, so hitting fighters isn't exactly efficient unless you plan on webbing them one by one. Heavy missiles. on the other hand, are much better.

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.12.06 15:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Tippia
The increased prevalence of capships.


Im going to expand on this and add that the triage boost made this worse to, having a triage carrier dropped on a small BS gang is getting more and more common and BS have fewer escape options than smaller ships and are more costly to lose than say BCs with cheaper medium rigs.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.06 16:34:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: Carniflex
...



That's because the hot drops have already happened. People have already learned their lesson. Now that there are no more BS fleets to hot drop there are fewer hot drops happening. Battleship fleets = hot drop me. Hot dropping a BC fleet doesn't guarantee as many kills. They're faster, they align faster, and they still put up a decent tank. Hot dropping a BS fleet means you can catch just about everything.

Originally by: Carniflex

The 100 carrier blob would be a lot tougher to take out than handful of supercarriers.



SCs need to be bubbled to be caught and they take forever to chew through. Once the bubblers are down they happily jump away. Low sec is especially easy for them because only a scripted hictor can point them. No hictor? No problem. Recall drones, jump away, laugh.

Originally by: Carniflex

Ok I have seen up to 15 or SC's dropped on field against the fleet on my side. But even that is not that scary - all you need is to kill their fighters/fighterbombers. Drakes would be actually good at it btw ;)


Yes, Drakes are very good at it. Battleships have ****ty tracking, so hitting fighters isn't exactly efficient unless you plan on webbing them one by one. Heavy missiles. on the other hand, are much better.


I must say that BS fleets I'm in dont get hotdropped all that often. Then again I'm usually in the blob big enough to pop a carrier faster than it's session change timer can expire. Ofc of late I have been flying Drake blobs more than I have battleships. Mobility is greater to lesser extent and a lot cheaper to bridge those around the map.

As far as SC go I would like to point out that bubbles or infinipoint are not the only option for keeping it there. You can neut it enough to prevent capacitor rising above 70%. Immediately after the jump capaictor is about 25
%. Takes a bit above 70% of capacitor to jump anywhere. As far as catching a battleship in SC goes tho - I would not say that those things are especially agile or lock exceptionally fast. So the few seconds difference between getting to warp between BC and BS is not that essential. SC hotropes are more often used to gank solo carriers doing anomalies in non cynojammed systems or at jump bridges and even there few neutralizer batteries can lower that risk considerably.

Anyway - few bombers and problem of fighters is solved. Back in the south I have seen FC ordering a bombing run on his own fleet. Yeh - he lost few ships in it. I and 30 other carriers lost a full flight of fighters. As a carrier/SC might be able to field another flight of that stuff - if he skips the fighterbombers, but if carrier loses full flight of fighters it's basically castrated. Not enough room for second full flight of them.

So bombers are not all bad things making one to not see BS blobs. They can be countered with tackiks (3-5 warp in points, warp at random, few squads of HAC's with piles of sensor boosters and bombers on overview. Dead bombers bombs dont explode. Unfortunately deep safes were removed. Damn hard to counter bombers on gate, unless you bubble your own fleet at jump in. In the past you usually just popped 2-3 suicide cynos 200 - 300 au away and bridged the fleet into one of them and when FC loaded he warped fleet to POS. By the time bombers arrived all that was there was bubble and anti bomber HAC's.


Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:20:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Quendishir
1.) Drakes are g** and everyone loves a bandwagon.

2.). Drakes are g** and everyone loves a bandwagon.

3.) drakes are... Well you get the picture...

4.) Drakes (and other battlecruisers) cost a lot less than battleships and are g**.



Fixed it for you.

Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:26:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Carniflex

I must say that BS fleets I'm in dont get hotdropped all that often. Then again I'm usually in the blob big enough to pop a carrier faster than it's session change timer can expire. Ofc of late I have been flying Drake blobs more than I have battleships. Mobility is greater to lesser extent and a lot cheaper to bridge those around the map.



So you've never seen a hot drop on your BS fleet. You think that means anything? You think CCP would release an FB damage nerf vs battleships because it sounded like fun? Personal experience is not fact, it's just a lack of coincidence in your case. Clearly all the evidence points to the contrary.

Originally by: Carniflex

As far as SC go I would like to point out that bubbles or infinipoint are not the only option for keeping it there. You can neut it enough to prevent capacitor rising above 70%. Immediately after the jump capaictor is about 25
%. Takes a bit above 70% of capacitor to jump anywhere. As far as catching a battleship in SC goes tho - I would not say that those things are especially agile or lock exceptionally fast. So the few seconds difference between getting to warp between BC and BS is not that essential. SC hotropes are more often used to gank solo carriers doing anomalies in non cynojammed systems or at jump bridges and even there few neutralizer batteries can lower that risk considerably.



In the case of a fleet entirely composed of Nyxs and Hels, sure, but any smart Wyvern or Aeon pilot knows to pack cap transfers for the cap spider and to cap other SCs up and it takes at least 20 neuts just to cancel out an SCs passive recharge, never mind making it go down. Between that and the cap spider they can still cap up.

Originally by: Carniflex

Anyway - few bombers and problem of fighters is solved. Back in the south I have seen FC ordering a bombing run on his own fleet. Yeh - he lost few ships in it. I and 30 other carriers lost a full flight of fighters. As a carrier/SC might be able to field another flight of that stuff - if he skips the fighterbombers, but if carrier loses full flight of fighters it's basically castrated. Not enough room for second full flight of them.



Amazingly enough, the SC problem was only one cause of the fail cascade that killed the battleship fleet. The doomsday change had a lot to say about it as well.

Originally by: Carniflex

So bombers are not all bad things making one to not see BS blobs. They can be countered with tackiks



Who the hell says "tackiks" anyways. That just makes you look ******ed. There a reason you have to immitate a 12 year old to get your point across? YesbroImirritated if not mad. On that note, why should you have to go so far out of your way to set up your "tackiks" when an SC fleets' "tackiks" is as simple as jump and launch bombers? If a ship is so OP that you have to bend over backwards to counter it even when you vastly outnumber them then clearly it needs a change.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:42:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Kai Yuen

Who the hell says "tackiks" anyways. That just makes you look ******ed. There a reason you have to immitate a 12 year old to get your point across? YesbroImirritated if not mad. On that note, why should you have to go so far out of your way to set up your "tackiks" when an SC fleets' "tackiks" is as simple as jump and launch bombers? If a ship is so OP that you have to bend over backwards to counter it even when you vastly outnumber them then clearly it needs a change.


Sorry to offend you. English is not my native language Wink

Dont like SC's myself either. Although I dont see them as only reason of all things evil in this world either. If you put it that way then all things 'can just jump in and f1 ... f8' - real EVE is more complex. You can do things differently to minimize the effect what your opponents 'f1 .. f8' has and maximize yours. Bombing or smartbombing few hundred fighter-bombers or fighters into space dust is one of such things.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:37:00 - [37]
 

It's not just super carriers. The change so that fleet ships no longer had to survive 2 DD's made all kinds of things suddenly more viable.

The speed issue is a pretty important one, I think. Speed/agility counts for so much in this game. You can move from system to system faster. You can get out of there if you get hotdropped/probed faster. You can force or decline engagements.

I'm wondering if we aren't loading too much importance on a single stat.

Maybe there should be two kinds of speed: an operational speed and a tactical speed. So, BS wouldn't MWD around as fast as BC but maybe they could enter warp as fast so jumping a BS gang around wasn't more time consuming than a BC gang.

It also feels strange that BS take longer to lock other ships of their class than lighter classes. Obviously you don't want BS catching frigs and such before they warp, but what if we were to make the locking process go much faster on same class hulls? Of course that would impact ewar substantially...

Just ideas on making BS fleets not seem so slow and flailing in comparison to fleets of lighter/faster ships.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:50:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Noisrevbus on 06/12/2010 18:59:27

I said it in some other thread on the same topic, but i'll reiterate:

Am i the only one who consider the game to be better balanced now than in the past?

I see alot of doomsayers here trying to infer some coaxed up stalemate, i even listened to (half-) of that horrible DT-podcast where they kept complaining about almost any gang that has brought some diversity to EVE.

Today, a wide selection of gangs can be seen from NHAC to SHAC and AHAC (which itself has come and gone in flavor from CH to SoT to PL), people keep mentioning Drake blobs while alot of Cane-gangs (both shield and armor) are popular in smaller gang warfare. Bombers and stealthy gangs are mentioned (from Bomber to Recon/Tech III to Black Ops, the last admittedly with some rarity yet not unheard of), while traditional BS are far from dead as several alliances are employing Pulse-baddons, while you could see Domi-blobs not too long ago and various Faction-BS or small RR groups are not unheard of in the more truncated venues (low/NPC-null). You have virtually every ship class/bracket in the game represented in some moderately popular gang right now.

Compare that to the past when you'd choose from BS, BS or BS (Snipe, RR, or transfer-supported) I kind of like the fact that tech II/III and BC-down can compete now. They enrich the game.

Even if the insurance nerf may have been a bit steep for BS, i honestly don't understand the breadth of the complaints. Don't nerf ships, nerf mindless blobs.

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.12.06 20:14:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
post


There is definitely a greater variety in the type of ships used now and generally its a good thing and most things are a lot more balanced, somethings I personally would like to see changed are Caldari gunboats and a reworking of the tier system to improve the lower tiers of frigates, cruisers and to a lesser extent BCs.

But yeah EVEs more balanced than ever.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2010.12.06 21:27:00 - [40]
 

You can get into a perfectly viable pvp drake with all level 4 skills. Probably even before you can get into a viable pvp t1 cruiser.

Hence the spammage.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:53:00 - [41]
 

Here's a thought: what if there were more and better shield BS, and BS could actually do shield RR? (Currently with the insane cpu reqs on shield xfers it's very hard).

Shield BS would, in theory, (especially if minmatar BS were shield) be more agile/quicker than armor BS. This should help them get out of sticky situations better. OTOH they'd have larger sigs and thus be even more vulnerable to bombers.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.12.07 02:14:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 07/12/2010 02:17:33
Originally by: Ulstan
Here's a thought: what if there were more and better shield BS, and BS could actually do shield RR? (Currently with the insane cpu reqs on shield xfers it's very hard).


Shield BS fleets can be done with basilisk support rather nicely, way superior to any attempt at BS RR, just like armor BS work way better with guardians than BS RR.

Raven, Maelstrom, Rokh, Hyperion and Tempest are all great battleships for shield fleets, just let go of the idea to have the RR on the battleships themselves, it is way inferior to specialized (and much harder to hit) logistics cruisers.

Shadow Lord77
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:14:00 - [43]
 

Instead of nerfing the Drake, why not improve other ships?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:58:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2010 04:05:16
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Am i the only one who consider the game to be better balanced now than in the past?


No, but "Not BS", "Not BS", "Not BS", and "Not BS" isn't very balanced either. Also, "Not BS" kinda removes the "end game" SP. There's literally no PVP reason to train higher than BC/T3 anymore. Hell, you can even do pretty damn well in PVE with a T3, so who needs battleships even in the game anymore?

Not balanced. Better, but not balanced.

-Liang

Ed: On second thought, I guess you could train for a supercarrier, but there's already tons of them and its a 2+ year train where you don't get anything new/exciting until the very end. :|

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:10:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Shadow Lord77
Instead of nerfing the Drake, why not improve other ships?
Because the devs that could be tasked to that are all busy making walking in stations along with a host of other non pew pew related tasks and won't be available for another year or so. A general rebalance of the entire t1 line of ships would do wonders for the game far far past expanding into even more new directions but oh well ccp wants to broaden eve's appeal to make more money so get used to the current balance for the forseeable future. I guess all these new subs won't really be ready for pew pew until then anyways. Rolling Eyes

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.07 07:31:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 07/12/2010 07:31:40
Jesus christ, people still use BSes. Where are you people living?

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2010-12-07%2001:55:00&end_time=2010-12-07%2002:40:00&system=N6G-H3

50 some odd BSes **** other BSes, AHACs and SBs.

http://kb.deerhunt.ru/index.php?op=fleet&name=176

A little misleading because it's over three systems and it's literally three seperate fleets. Russians have shield BSes mixed in, to break through reps with alpha, just like every else actively fighting in nullsec has begun switching to.

They aren't seen much in lowsec or small-gangs in general (a handful of Machs not withstanding), but to say that battleship-heavy fleets no longer happen is just wrong.

Enduros
Desard's Nation
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:17:00 - [47]
 

Sooo yesterday I saw a good number of shield BS fielded by IT. They sat outside drake range and I think during the whole night none were lost. They shot at NC. armor bs fleet. They shot at -A- drakes. Apparently it works.

Then I have seen a video of INIT. fielding 100 firewall BS against a 300man drake blob. They lost 7 ships. Killed 170 drakes. Apparently fitting a smartbomb works too.

Firewall BS

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2010.12.07 14:33:00 - [48]
 

I wish I could just remove the skillpoints from any racial BS skill and place it into something like destroyers 5 or any other of the same race Rolling Eyes


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