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Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:23:00 - [1]
 

Hi all, just some quick observations on dedicated salvaging vessels. As we know, prior to the advent of the Noctis, destroyers and battlecruisers were the hulls that got turned into dedicated salvage vessels. Destroyers for their ease of access to newbies and relative cheapness. Battlecruisers for their bigger cargo capacity.

Here's the issue. The Noctis looks like it's price will stabilize at around 66% more expensive than a tier II battlecruiser. Now admittedly it's usage in high sec means it will only be in danger during suicide ganks and wars - for the most part. So it should entirely replace BC salvage ships. However I don't think it will displace the destroyer as much as people initially thought it would. Mainly because newbies won't be able to afford it. And for dangerous area salvaging - the destroyer is risking a lot less isk.

PvP pilots like to fly expensive things since they perform better. A lot of PvE pilots like risking less (although there are plenty of examples of PvE pilots with expensive mission runners). This leads me to suspect that the destroyer will not be totally displaced as a valid salvage hull. We should no longer see any battlecruisers though. If you needed a BC, the Noctis is not THAT much more expensive and it IS much better suited to the task.

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:43:00 - [2]
 

The ability to fly a noctis itself will ultimately lead to more salvaging being done which in turn pushes down the salvaged materials prices.


If the prices on salvaged materials gets low enough, noobs won't even bother with a destroyer for salvaging as it will be far too much work for far too little profit.

Saidin Thor
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:43:00 - [3]
 

I think you need to take another look at your cost estimate. Granted, I only eyeballed and guestimated, but your price estimate seems quite high from what the BPO materials look like.

Nicky's Tomb
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:51:00 - [4]
 

Catalyst with a trailer jet can works for me. Does mean you have to come back for the trailer later though. :)

Just in case anyone is wondering what I'm on about. As soon as the hold is full, jetison it all and grab the can with a tractor. Then just cart it around with you.

Berikath
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:55:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Letrange
PvP pilots like to fly expensive things since they perform better. A lot of PvE pilots like risking less (although there are plenty of examples of PvE pilots with expensive mission runners).


Wut? The PVPers I know will use very expensive modules.... on cap ships (or supercaps). On anything smaller, they go with tech II or meta 4. They fly ships expecting that, at some point, they will get ganked by a bigger group of PVPers and they WILL lose the ship. PVEers in my experience are much more willing to use faction or better fits because they can pretty much always know what they're gonna be getting into, and don't expect to lose their ships.

Originally by: Saidin Thor
I think you need to take another look at your cost estimate. Granted, I only eyeballed and guestimated, but your price estimate seems quite high from what the BPO materials look like.


I compared mats of a drake vs noctis, and estimate seemed fairly reasonable. Looks like tierII BCs are mid to high 20s, and Noctis is mid-30s.

Lord Hawkwing
Blueprint Haus
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2010.12.01 19:22:00 - [6]
 

The advantage the Noctis has is it's tractor range & speed bonus. You can sit still in most cases and just pull things in instead of slow boating all over the site. I could see dedicated mission runners using this thing to speed up their isk/hour.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.12.01 20:45:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lord Hawkwing
The advantage the Noctis has is it's tractor range & speed bonus. You can sit still in most cases and just pull things in instead of slow boating all over the site. I could see dedicated mission runners using this thing to speed up their isk/hour.

Yep and the point I was making is that a lot of mission runners have moved beyond the destroyer into the BC because of the cargo space issues with the destroyer. Those are the ones who will be using the Noctis. Most of the guys who are at the destroyer stage will be looking at the price and going "ouch". Mid 30mil-40mil is probably going to be the final price range on a researched Noctis, newbies won't be able to afford that but can easily afford a destroyer (7-900k these days?). What I'm saying is that the destroyer slavager market won't tottaly disappear. The BC salvager however is a thing of the past.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.12.01 22:05:00 - [8]
 

The Noctis has two major weakness that makes it somewhat unwieldy when compared to frigate/cruiser/destroyer class salvagers. The first is its super pitiful scan resolution (which delays targeting considerably) and second it moves like a pregnant whale (which is somewhat mitigated by its tractor range).

So, the preference for destroyers (as a salvage vessel) won't be totally centred on price alone. They are still very viable even in the age of the Noctis. Agility & speed is a major factor when ninja salvaging someone else's wreck (you can't tractor). Heck, one day, we might even see a baby Noctis Wink That'll put the nail in the coffin for destroyer frigate/class salvagers.

What Noctis will put out of work are the BC and T3 hulls in current use, and possibly including even cruisers like the Exequror.
The advantages are too great, that one would be a fool to be still running any BC/T3 salvagers.

P.S Noctis protip : fit a Sensor Booster w/scan resolution script on your new Noctis. Nanofit it if you don't require maxed cargo space. With 3 tackle rigs, start with a ratio 5 (tractor)/3 (salvager) and adjust the ratio to 6/2 if you find that your salvagers have too much idle time.

Emporer Norton
Posted - 2010.12.02 05:40:00 - [9]
 

I'd like to see the noctis get buffed slightly and a big scanres boost hulk/skiff has 660 noctis is only 90 but other than that seems like a great ship

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.02 08:44:00 - [10]
 

The noctis DOES have a limit of 10 locked targets however, so if you have the skills, you can simply start locking your next future cargo, while salvaging the ones that are in range, and tractoring the ones that are already locked. So not that much need for a sensor booster.
As for the speed of the thing, for ninja salvaging, it's of the essence, but a missioner won't need that, they just bring in their alt to the site, and it begins hauling in the salvage. Put on an AB for getting to the next gate, and you're set. at 60km range of the tractors, there won't be much that is out of range of a noctis to tractor into salvaging range.

Noxides
APEX ARDENT COALITION
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Letrange

Here's the issue. The Noctis looks like it's price will stabilize at around 66% more expensive than a tier II battlecruiser.



Huh? Where I am they're only like 60-70m

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.12.02 19:10:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Noxides
Originally by: Letrange

Here's the issue. The Noctis looks like it's price will stabilize at around 66% more expensive than a tier II battlecruiser.



Huh? Where I am they're only like 60-70m


And even that is a huge markup. The mineral input price is...what??? 40 million ISK? So, I think they will eventually be like 45 million. 50 million tops.

Quantessa
Posted - 2010.12.03 02:52:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Quantessa on 03/12/2010 02:54:33
I think once you've flown one it will be hard to slum down to a normal salvager.

They have really nice range, tons of cap, respectable speed for a cruiser and they cycle the salvage modules faster and pull the cans close quicker.

It's a very luxurious way to salvage.

Forge sales volumes are:

30.11.10 736 units sold
1.12.10 2553 units sold

So they're pretty popular so far.

Lirinas
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:51:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Lirinas on 03/12/2010 17:51:56
There's a second bonus on the Noctis that can be very handy - 5% faster salvage and tractor times per level. That's at 20% bonus (for Level 4 Ore Industrial)) which can be a huge time saver.

Although I did enjoy using my Interdictor for salvaging. Although they required more skills to fly, they were faster & had a lot of cargospace available to them, and they were cheaper than a BC to buy (that was years ago, I don't know what they cost now).

Marc Younbrog
Posted - 2010.12.03 21:01:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Marc Younbrog on 03/12/2010 21:03:04
In my opinion, the Noctis is an expensive scrap heap. I was hoping for something that will cost around 30-50 million to be able to acquire a decent tank, but it cannot. So it won't see any use out of hi-sec. The pricetag is not worth the benefits in general, and SURELY not worth the benefits in the riskiness of lower sec.

It has a much slower speed than more agile BCs (and especially destroyers), and horrible lock times for locking the wrecks. And horrible agility; Good luck warping away from anyone who comes in to scram you.

The 5% bonus to salvager times will not make much of a difference in my opinion. Sure, it will probably save you around 10% time, but a number of wrecks in hisec are salvaged in 1 or 2 cycles anyways, negating any real bonus due to the "dead" time the module spends awaiting reactivation. (player response time and lag).

The marginally improved cargo hold is nice, but won't come in handy for the volume you'll usually be salvaging. I've rarely had instances where I acquired just a little more than could fit in my BC, it was either small volumes, or HUGE volumes (2x more than a battlecruiser is still not enough to hold 5k m3).

The only redeeming feature is the tractor beam range, but you're going to NEED to travel in most missions, if not to reach out further than 70km, at the very least in order to putt putt over to the next gate.

So, while the Noctis is an expensive scrap heap that many mission farmers may use in hi-sec to marginally improve (if at all) their salvage time, it will rarely if ever get used in lower sec because it is a fat whale made of paper mache.

(And no, I have not bought nor used one)

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:12:00 - [16]
 

I got one and have done a few mission loots with it and it's a huge improvement. Cleaning up is far less tedious and much faster. How long will improved looting time take to pay for my new ship? I don't know. But to be honest, I don't care. The task is no longer a chore.

If you're in the salvage trade, get out.


Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Noxides
Originally by: Letrange

Here's the issue. The Noctis looks like it's price will stabilize at around 66% more expensive than a tier II battlecruiser.



Huh? Where I am they're only like 60-70m


And even that is a huge markup. The mineral input price is...what??? 40 million ISK? So, I think they will eventually be like 45 million. 50 million tops.

um... guys I said percent, not millions. Take a Tier 2 BC multiply it's price by about 1.66 and you'll get what I expect the price to stabilize at. It's mineral content puts it squarely in between a T2-BC and a T1-BS

Anne Alingus
Posted - 2010.12.04 10:26:00 - [18]
 

lol at the guy who thinks these don't (already) get used in nullsec alot.

If all you're doing is salvaging, then yes, just use a destroyer, since salvage takes no cargo space, and with a MWD on the destroyer, the salvager range bonus of the Noctis is mitigated. With 3 salvage tackles and at least Salvage 4, your success rate is pretty high, and your locktime is much faster in a destroyer.

The huge bonus is that with the Noctis, you get to loot everything as well as salvage it, which is particularly nice if you're doing Drone stuff.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.04 11:22:00 - [19]
 

I've found that when looting/salvaging with a noctis, I pull in and salvage stuff quicker than I can loot them.. so generally when doing a field full of wrecks, I end up with 10-20 cargo cans around me full of loot, which I then have to pick up.
At any rate, a noctis won't see much combat directly anyway, so it doesn't really need a tank. Anybody coming to come and gank you would also have to deal with the other people around you that have been causing all the wrecks anyway :)

My current fitting is like this:
High:
Salvager I ( x3 )
Tractor Beam ( x5 )
Medium:
10 MN AB II
Sensor Booster with scan resolution script
Low:
Cargo expanders
Riggs:
Salvage tackles

works wonders

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.12.04 14:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Marc Younbrog
Edited by: Marc Younbrog on 03/12/2010 21:03:04
In my opinion, the Noctis is an expensive scrap heap. I was hoping for something that will cost around 30-50 million to be able to acquire a decent tank, but it cannot. So it won't see any use out of hi-sec. The pricetag is not worth the benefits in general, and SURELY not worth the benefits in the riskiness of lower sec.

It has a much slower speed than more agile BCs (and especially destroyers), and horrible lock times for locking the wrecks. And horrible agility; Good luck warping away from anyone who comes in to scram you.

The 5% bonus to salvager times will not make much of a difference in my opinion. Sure, it will probably save you around 10% time, but a number of wrecks in hisec are salvaged in 1 or 2 cycles anyways, negating any real bonus due to the "dead" time the module spends awaiting reactivation. (player response time and lag).

The marginally improved cargo hold is nice, but won't come in handy for the volume you'll usually be salvaging. I've rarely had instances where I acquired just a little more than could fit in my BC, it was either small volumes, or HUGE volumes (2x more than a battlecruiser is still not enough to hold 5k m3).

The only redeeming feature is the tractor beam range, but you're going to NEED to travel in most missions, if not to reach out further than 70km, at the very least in order to putt putt over to the next gate.

So, while the Noctis is an expensive scrap heap that many mission farmers may use in hi-sec to marginally improve (if at all) their salvage time, it will rarely if ever get used in lower sec because it is a fat whale made of paper mache.

(And no, I have not bought nor used one)


Your assuptions are crap, please do not even try to comment as you have not even flown one lol

Chakarr
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.12.04 15:06:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Marc Younbrog

The only redeeming feature is the tractor beam range, but you're going to NEED to travel in most missions, if not to reach out further than 70km, at the very least in order to putt putt over to the next gate.


Gate...?

Most senisble people BM the rooms and salvage after they turn in the mission, so you can warp to each wreck field...Wink

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.12.04 15:16:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Marc Younbrog
Good luck warping away from anyone who comes in to scram you.


If someone wanted to kill your salvager, I don't think it being a battlecruiser would help any. If your salvaging in low sec and someone comes while you are not watching - you are dead. I don't care what type of non-pvp ship it is, your dead.

Tank is only relevent to ward off suicide bombers, thats it.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.12.04 19:14:00 - [23]
 

In my opinion Noctis is very nice ship. Before the release of it I had Golem fitted for loot/salvage (with salvage rigs and all) - so I must say this is improvement.

While I was unwilling to drag my salvage Golem out into 0.0 then Noctis is better and cheap enough for being jumped out into 0.0.

As far as being able to fly one leading to more salvaging - I don't think it's that simple. If it's economically sensible people will salvage when it's more isk to do next anom/mission then they do that. What noctis does it to bring the threshold for 'worth it' lower with it's increased effectivity at collecting loot and salvage.

Emporer Norton
Posted - 2010.12.04 19:19:00 - [24]
 

I know plenty of people using them in 0.0 to loot/salvage sanctums once rats are dead it goes pretty quick don't need a tank cause if anyone there you need to tank you would be in a pos or docking anyway

CelFea Dar
Tri-Fleet Logistics
Posted - 2010.12.05 05:27:00 - [25]
 

When I moved to 0.0 on my main character, the only combat ship I could field was a destroyer. I was training up battlecruiser skills at the time.

For the first few days, I felt completely useless as everyone around me in the corp was flying battlecruisers, command ships, battleships, and strategic cruisers.

They told me to fit salvagers and tractors and follow them on the DED space complexes...looting and salvaging in their wake. Many times, 0.0 plexing is all about aggro management in the first place, so tanking is a non-issue even if the shooting is still going on while you're salvaging.

If you salvage after the rooms are cleared, then it's irrelevant.

The Noctis -- (and yes I have flown one) -- is an entirely new experience. Like was mentioned earlier, you don't have to leave jetcans floating in empty space 8 jumps from your home station which have to be retrieved using a covert hauler or a trusty badger (either of which require an additional trip out after the salvage is done). And with so many high slots to work with, as well as the aforementioned capacitor, you can sacrifice a salvager and/or a tractor and opt for some sort of logistics support, such as a remote armor repper, scan probe launcher, or any other neccessity that might be of use to the rest of the fleet (if you are with the main combat force).

Speaking of combat, I could see times when a PVP romaing gang may wish to have a Noctis follow along behind them fitted with a cloak in case a juicy target is encountered with valuable cargo drops. How many times do roaming gangs destroy the wrecks because no one in the gang has enough cargo space to loot the goods? A Noctis would make a great tag-a-long for a gang of stealth bombers.

Don't begrudge the Noctis for being expensive or being unconventional. She has tons more resilience than a destroyer could ever hope to have and with her bonuses being able to allow her to accomplish the role of salvage/looter with fewer tractors or salvagers and without the demand for MWD or AB for mobility, she has high slots to spare if needed.

A kick-ass little ship. Well done, CCP!

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.12.05 12:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CelFea Dar
A kick-ass little ship. Well done, CCP!


I agree,
Better than a destroyer in every way apart from speed and agility, but due to the tractor bonuses it doesnt need either of them, if you need to tank or use your speed in one of these your doing something wrong.

Dabljuh
Posted - 2010.12.05 13:59:00 - [27]
 

I can see my Cane will still see some use in L4/5 group mishing.

A Cane is a much better support ship when salvaging live, that is under fire. Missions frequently have spawns that aggro at random, and the Cane is a top salvager and can field a considerable tank at the same time. We had to tell salvaging newbies many times that if they bring a catalyst, they'll lose the ship, in many missions. The cane however can fit an (x-?)large shield booster and a heavy cap booster in the salvaging configuration. That's not enough to tank full L4s/L5s of course, but easily enough to Tank a couple newly spawned rats till the DPS nukes them down.

I'm slightly disappointed that the noctis is more of a destroyer than a BC. And that it's so expensive. Salvaging is a great way for new players with no access to Battleships and T2 guns to make an impact in group PVE ops. I'd want 2 ships - a cheap one (the noctis, priced under 10 mill) to quickly clear rooms after the fact, and a support one, with a decent shield buffer, maybe increased resists, that could easily be more expensive than a BC, i.e. as the noctis is right now.

Renownedwolf
Posted - 2010.12.05 15:39:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
In my opinion Noctis is very nice ship. Before the release of it I had Golem fitted for loot/salvage (with salvage rigs and all) - so I must say this is improvement.

While I was unwilling to drag my salvage Golem out into 0.0 then Noctis is better and cheap enough for being jumped out into 0.0.

As far as being able to fly one leading to more salvaging - I don't think it's that simple. If it's economically sensible people will salvage when it's more isk to do next anom/mission then they do that. What noctis does it to bring the threshold for 'worth it' lower with it's increased effectivity at collecting loot and salvage.


I was afraid i was the only one that did that(also a nice isk injection if you trade it in for a noctis)

Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:02:00 - [29]
 

All of you are missing the most important issue with the Noctis:

It looks the part :)

I like my ships to look "fit for purpose" - as that's the 'R' in MMORPG, no?

The noctis looks like a big, dirty, industrial juggernaut. For that reason seeing her out in an asteroid field gobbling up trash is exactly fitting. A destroyer doing the same task, though quite effectively, looks out of place. Especially when, in my case, that destroyer was a Coercer :P

I bought a Noctis last night (48mil, Jita), and loved the first flight. Sitting in the middle of a belt and tractoring in the wrecks is completely effortless - with a 120km circumference circle around her, she's rarely going to need to move to do what she does best Razz As I usually dock with the cargo hold nearly full (I use extenders) - I urge nay-sayers to consider the advantage of being able to loot & salvage at the same time.

Defences wise my fit offers 10500HP effective (as shown in fitting) - which is more than enough for most uses.

So impressed was I, that I flew my destroyer out of dock and took some pleasure in scuttling it. Since they're useless in battle & now beaten as a salvager .. little bits of space garbage would seem the best destination.

Shana Matika
Posted - 2010.12.06 12:03:00 - [30]
 

I still think that both are fine depending on your needs.

For missionrunning / 'static' purpose (ie no long traveling between systems) the Noctis can't be beaten.

Only disadvantage is it's size: I like to use my 2nd char as a "base" for exploration. Orca with travelfit. Spare drones, equipment and tools in corphangar. In SMB 1 ishkur, 1 ishtar, 1 cov-ops and 1 destroyer salvagefitted. Hulk repacked with mods if a worthwhile gravsite is found.
The noctis is just too big to fill this role (ok you could repack it but then I won't be able to switch the ship fast when a site is cleared).

This is the reason why I still use destroyers in some cases.

But for it's intended role the Noctis is the best choice: Salvage L4 missions fast.


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