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I'm Down
Posted - 2010.12.01 00:42:00 - [1]
 

That's it?

Rockets suffer far more from their damage than they do from their ability to project it on small ships with a crappy explosion velocity.

You touted for weeks that rockets were getting a damage boost, and the big surprise is 5.7% on all ships except a hawk because it got a bigger ship boost?

Either this is an epic letdown or someone forgot that in order to change rate of fire to increase damage, the number has to go down, not up. Right now the crow, the hawk, and the other common rocket ships still do horrific dps compared to their competitors. The only really good thing is that they can actually inflict a bit of damage on small ships. They still can't do it well.

Can anyone explain how this flopped so bad.

Farrisen
Caldari
MoaR ChickeN
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:06:00 - [2]
 

Do they speak English in That's it?

Patch Notes READ THEM:

"Rockets have had an explosion velocity boost. It means they will inflict more damage on faster moving targets whilst also gaining a straight damage boost through changes to rocket damage and rocket launcher rate of fire. "

Rixiu
The Inuits
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:10:00 - [3]
 

Dude, they always hit. 5,7% might not be a lot on the paper but fly a turret based frig and you'll see that you sometimes miss or get bad hits etc. If you're into paper dps then just fly a neutron enyo or something...

I'm Down
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Rixiu
Dude, they always hit. 5,7% might not be a lot on the paper but fly a turret based frig and you'll see that you sometimes miss or get bad hits etc. If you're into paper dps then just fly a neutron enyo or something...


Missiles always hit, but not always for full damage. With the new explosion velocity, they still do not hit for full damage on most full speed cruisers w/o either an AB or MWD on, less not with. They also do not hit frigates for full damage regaurdless. The explosion velocity bonus is also pointless for hitting smaller ships because virtually any interceptor with an MWD on can out run rockets. Ships with velocity bonuses still only have 16km max range with rockets. Which means that unless you're super close, you will likely only have a few instances where you can actually even get your rockets to hit.

Since by default most missile ships are shield tanks, saying add a web is idiotic as you have to waste yet another of your tank slots to do this.

In other words, a 5.7% rocket damage boost and the missile velocity boost have done paper thin marginal stuff to actually make the useful. Obviously they're an improvement, but not even close to enough to make rockets viable.

And if you want to go further into details, ROF is the king of missile attributes. So by increasing the ROF and offsetting it with more missile damage, it actually hurts missiles. There's a reason why when the drake was first released on sisi, they had to mod it away from a RoF bonus to a damage bonus. Rof is better than damage. By increasing the RoF of the launchers, they've set rockets back more than they've fixed them.

This part of the patch was just really poorly implemented and there's not a logical explanation for why.

A lot of people were really excited about the rocket boost after 2 years of pleading. But it's become apparent that it was a flop.

Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:43:00 - [5]
 

I think you missed the 15 page debate & feedback thread on the rocket fix plan that was made public two months ago.

wizard87
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:54:00 - [6]
 

Best bit about this change:

It got its own section on the Icursion Features Page. Thats how crap and lightweight Incursion is as an expansion. Rolling Eyes

Foofad
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.01 02:27:00 - [7]
 

I enjoy the sentiment of rockets being better, but to be honest I agree that it's a **** poor compensation all told.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.01 09:35:00 - [8]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.12.01 09:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: I'm Down
Originally by: Rixiu
Dude, they always hit. 5,7% might not be a lot on the paper but fly a turret based frig and you'll see that you sometimes miss or get bad hits etc. If you're into paper dps then just fly a neutron enyo or something...


Missiles always hit, but not always for full damage. With the new explosion velocity, they still do not hit for full damage on most full speed cruisers w/o either an AB or MWD on, less not with. They also do not hit frigates for full damage regaurdless. The explosion velocity bonus is also pointless for hitting smaller ships because virtually any interceptor with an MWD on can out run rockets. Ships with velocity bonuses still only have 16km max range with rockets. Which means that unless you're super close, you will likely only have a few instances where you can actually even get your rockets to hit.

Since by default most missile ships are shield tanks, saying add a web is idiotic as you have to waste yet another of your tank slots to do this.

In other words, a 5.7% rocket damage boost and the missile velocity boost have done paper thin marginal stuff to actually make the useful. Obviously they're an improvement, but not even close to enough to make rockets viable.

And if you want to go further into details, ROF is the king of missile attributes. So by increasing the ROF and offsetting it with more missile damage, it actually hurts missiles. There's a reason why when the drake was first released on sisi, they had to mod it away from a RoF bonus to a damage bonus. Rof is better than damage. By increasing the RoF of the launchers, they've set rockets back more than they've fixed them.

This part of the patch was just really poorly implemented and there's not a logical explanation for why.

A lot of people were really excited about the rocket boost after 2 years of pleading. But it's become apparent that it was a flop.


Rockets hit cruisers perfectly fine, and 16km is huge for a close range frigate weapon especially when you consider that missiles arent affected by range like turrets.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.12.01 10:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/12/2010 10:20:04

Originally by: I'm Down
That's it?

Rockets suffer far more from their damage than they do from their ability to project it on small ships with a crappy explosion velocity.

Can anyone explain how this flopped so bad.


This post flopped because you're a dribbling idiot. Explosion velocity increased by 76%. Damage applied against an ABing webbed Rifter increased by about 45%.

More like "I'm Down's" tbh.

iwasatoad
Posted - 2010.12.01 10:38:00 - [11]
 

to sum this up torp will hit a BS not webbed not TP for good vollies and good rate of fire as well as hit BC's and some Cruiser Webbing suggested Target painting will do.

Rocket's wont hit ther owne class for much of all unless webbed and Target painted. cruisers will haf to be webbed witch then theay can webb u and take you on no problem BC's just shoot them with it and battle ship the same..

Problem being that you cant use the module aginst the class it is desined for as the gun boat will alweys be superior in damage even at the range of rocket distances as rockes are real real close ie less than 6 or 7k to ensure that trans speed dosent make it trave the extra distance i think range theay could be given more flight time by about twice and speed reduced slightley to try to equate out to it's big brouther the torp and be given a much higher base vollie while leaving the rate of fire where it is now thus giving it the range that is should have and the damage miss scratchs like gun's can do as that's how torpedos currentely work



but any way that's my knolage of what the problem is go ahead and start bashing and saying i cant spell i dont really care it's a game CCP is only so big and cant handle the huge load that is being requested of a rather small group of people give it time

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.12.01 10:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: iwasatoad
to sum this up torp will hit a BS not webbed not TP for good vollies and good rate of fire as well as hit BC's and some Cruiser Webbing suggested Target painting will do.

Rocket's wont hit ther owne class for much of all unless webbed and Target painted. cruisers will haf to be webbed witch then theay can webb u and take you on no problem BC's just shoot them with it and battle ship the same..

Problem being that you cant use the module aginst the class it is desined for as the gun boat will alweys be superior in damage even at the range of rocket distances as rockes are real real close ie less than 6 or 7k to ensure that trans speed dosent make it trave the extra distance i think range theay could be given more flight time by about twice and speed reduced slightley to try to equate out to it's big brouther the torp and be given a much higher base vollie while leaving the rate of fire where it is now thus giving it the range that is should have and the damage miss scratchs like gun's can do as that's how torpedos currentely work



but any way that's my knolage of what the problem is go ahead and start bashing and saying i cant spell i dont really care it's a game CCP is only so big and cant handle the huge load that is being requested of a rather small group of people give it time


You didnt need to web cruiser before the boost why would you suddenly need to now

Mattias Kerensky
Minmatar
The Flying Tigers
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.12.01 11:21:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mattias Kerensky on 01/12/2010 11:21:49
FYI, with Incursion's boost, a rocket Hookbill became a beast. With Caldari Frig 5 you get an additional 100% damageboost to kinetic rockets/missiles + the Incursion buffs to damage and explosion velocity + scram and spare mid for web or painter + 4k shieldbuffer = One mean ass frig.

Very Happy

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.12.01 11:44:00 - [14]
 

I'm beginning to think that the problem with Caldari ships is less the ships themselves than the people who fly them. Rockets may still do less damage compared to the high damage turret frigates, but they do it over their whole engagement range, where turret based frigates have to close in to do more damage. This means that the Jag attacking a Hawk has to take damage while approaching before he can apply his own maximum damage. It also means that many kiting frigates are going to have problems killing rocket ships before they have to warp off themselves. It also means that rocket ships can fit mwds since they don't need to manoeuvre to apply damage.

It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than what was.

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.12.01 12:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
I'm beginning to think that the problem with Caldari ships is less the ships themselves than the people who fly them.


^^ this

Gone Beserk
Minmatar
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc
Posted - 2010.12.01 13:49:00 - [16]
 

Who in his right mind is complaining about the new rockets??

They are pure packages of "own" drenched in winsauce.

Seriously get out of eft and try em out before you start complaining , the hawk has become my favorite assault frigate by far and the hookbill is a beast now.



Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:51:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 01/12/2010 14:51:24
you have range and always hit. if you are doing it right, then your target will shot at falloff ranges, while you will be always in "optimal" range.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:06:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mattias Kerensky
Edited by: Mattias Kerensky on 01/12/2010 11:21:49
FYI, with Incursion's boost, a rocket Hookbill became a beast. With Caldari Frig 5 you get an additional 100% damageboost to kinetic rockets/missiles + the Incursion buffs to damage and explosion velocity + scram and spare mid for web or painter + 4k shieldbuffer = One mean ass frig.

Very Happy


I have to admit, ~130dps is very scary Rolling Eyes

rowdy buccaneer
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:18:00 - [19]
 

were rockets have an issue too is here
*That's* where rockets are getting shafted. Rockets should have an explosion velocity higher than 85 (heavy missiles, for reference, have an explosion velocity of 81m/sec!). Sounds like maybe someone left a "1" off the front of that number (ie. should be 185m/sec, not 85m/sec).
btw i think all dic's and ew frigs should have rockets with racial bonuses!!!!!!!!!!!YARRRR!!

I'm Down
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:44:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: I''m Down on 01/12/2010 15:45:24
Originally by: Bomberlocks
I'm


Missiles don't do/have never done damage their entire range. The reason for this is because of ship movement. A 16km range rocket crow, or an 10.5km range unbonused frigate will only have about 50-80% of that actual range against an enemy frigate, or about 80% vs most cruisers. The reason for this is because of 2 factors. The first is rocket speed means that if it takes 3 seconds to get to a target moving at 3,000m/s, the it has to travel an additional 9,000 meters just to get to it's target. The other less important factor is lag before hit. Basically because missiles always have a lag time before they hit, sometimes calculations get skewed because a target that was in range moves out of range before the missile damage is calculated. This is less of an issue with missiles and more of an issue with game mechanics.

Everyone keeps saying missiles always hit. This is true. But if their damage is so substantially lower than their competitors that the fact that they always hit doesn't matter, then it's still an issue with the raw damage. We're talking about a frigate class weapon here, it's the lowest on the totem pole. Giving it decent frigate damage isn't game breaking like higher with higher tier ships.

If there's issues with individual ships, then address them. But overall, rockets are hugely lacking.

Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Mattias Kerensky
Edited by: Mattias Kerensky on 01/12/2010 11:21:49
FYI, with Incursion's boost, a rocket Hookbill became a beast. With Caldari Frig 5 you get an additional 100% damageboost to kinetic rockets/missiles + the Incursion buffs to damage and explosion velocity + scram and spare mid for web or painter + 4k shieldbuffer = One mean ass frig.

Very Happy


I have to admit, ~130dps is very scary Rolling Eyes


Bets on how many other CR faction frigates i could 1 v 1 and dominate a rocket hookbill with?

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:50:00 - [21]
 

What makes hookbill good ship is its 5 mids and decent speed /for caldari frig/. Not rockets.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.12.01 15:54:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Korg Leaf on 01/12/2010 15:55:17
Originally by: I'm Down

Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Mattias Kerensky
Edited by: Mattias Kerensky on 01/12/2010 11:21:49
FYI, with Incursion's boost, a rocket Hookbill became a beast. With Caldari Frig 5 you get an additional 100% damageboost to kinetic rockets/missiles + the Incursion buffs to damage and explosion velocity + scram and spare mid for web or painter + 4k shieldbuffer = One mean ass frig.

Very Happy


I have to admit, ~130dps is very scary Rolling Eyes


Bets on how many other CR faction frigates i could 1 v 1 and dominate a rocket hookbill with?


The thing is very few cr faction frigates are able to dictate range on a standard dual web rocket hookbill, in fact I can think of only two, not exactly hard to guess which ones.

Also at worst against an ab frig your going to lose 3km-4km on the frigs with eft 16km range still well outside the range most other frigates can put out with there high damage ammo

Zyress
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:00:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 01/12/2010 14:51:24
you have range and always hit. if you are doing it right, then your target will shot at falloff ranges, while you will be always in "optimal" range.


Max range with all level 5 skills for a faction Rocket is 10.1 km, 9.1 for Rage and 15.2 for Javelins, Rockets do not travel in a straight line, if you shoot a faction rocket from 10 Km you won't hit anything. As I understand turrets, I don't use them so this is just what I have gathered, you can hit for max damage out to optimal, typically less than 2 km decreasing to half damage at optimal plus falloff. Beyond that you have a decreasing chance to do decreasing damage out to optimal plus falloff X 2, that means that a Rifter set up for kiting with Barrage ammo could easily stay out of my range and do enough damage to bleed my kestrel out.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:08:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 01/12/2010 16:09:21
Originally by: Zyress
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 01/12/2010 14:51:24
you have range and always hit. if you are doing it right, then your target will shot at falloff ranges, while you will be always in "optimal" range.


Max range with all level 5 skills for a faction Rocket is 10.1 km, 9.1 for Rage and 15.2 for Javelins, Rockets do not travel in a straight line, if you shoot a faction rocket from 10 Km you won't hit anything. As I understand turrets, I don't use them so this is just what I have gathered, you can hit for max damage out to optimal, typically less than 2 km decreasing to half damage at optimal plus falloff. Beyond that you have a decreasing chance to do decreasing damage out to optimal plus falloff X 2, that means that a Rifter set up for kiting with Barrage ammo could easily stay out of my range and do enough damage to bleed my kestrel out.


You forgot that while the rocket travels, the target travels too, which results in even less range.

Because the rocket not only has to travel the range to the target, but also the range the target has moved while the rocket was travelling.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf
Rockets hit cruisers perfectly fine, and 16km is huge for a close range frigate weapon especially when you consider that missiles arent affected by range like turrets.


Yeah, it's almost as much as T2 Pulses with Scorch on a range bonused ship.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Mavnas
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Rockets hit cruisers perfectly fine, and 16km is huge for a close range frigate weapon especially when you consider that missiles arent affected by range like turrets.


Yeah, it's almost as much as T2 Pulses with Scorch on a range bonused ship.


Should have said that that range is huge for a close range frig using navy ammo, although in reality its probably closer to 12km once ship movement and missile acceleration is taken into account. Which is still fairly impressive for a close range frigate

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2010.12.01 17:19:00 - [27]
 

BUT MY RIFTER DOES 120 DPS IN EFT! ROCKETS SUCK!

I mean who'd ever care about falloff and tracking, EFT says it sucks, so it sucks.

What CCP needs to do, is to post a graph so EFT people won't understand it, but they'll be scared to post because someone might tell them to go look at it. It worked for the learning skills change. It cut down all the 200% training time people before they appeared.

Vokradacka
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:30:00 - [28]
 

yea... 90%+ 0,0 pvpers are in jaguars/wolfs/dramiels ...because they are idiotic eft warriors Shocked ...
patch change nothing , hawk is still subpar(!finally usable!)... but who careCool

Rip Striker
Posted - 2010.12.01 19:22:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Rip Striker on 01/12/2010 19:31:56
Why has the launcher duration for the rocket launchers been increased? On a t2 launcher, from 3.2 to 4.0 s.

This means that the so called boost to dps is in fact a decrease. Is it not?

dps = damage /duration

damage increase = 1,057
duration increase = 1,25

overall dps change = 1,057/1,25 = 0,8456 -> 15,5% decrease!

Am i missing something?Confused

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.01 20:50:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf
Should have said that that range is huge for a close range frig using navy ammo, although in reality its probably closer to 12km once ship movement and missile acceleration is taken into account. Which is still fairly impressive for a close range frigate


Fair enough, but with close range turrets you can always switch to Scorch/Barrage to basically tripple your range with a small DPS impact. Not much you can do about rockets.

Quote:
Am i missing something?


Damage per rocket increase was actually more like 33%, I think. Which comes out to 5.7% once you factor in the slower RoF. (Or maybe that's when you factor in reduced need to reload too?)


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