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Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.13 10:58:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Black Dranzer on 13/12/2010 10:59:36
Giving me a quote dump is not "articulating your argument". But since you refuse to, I'm going to do it for you. The following is a paraphrase of your argument. If it's inaccurate, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Learn to compose your arguments better.
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero (paraphrased)
Drone reps are like a remote rep module. You can't use remote reps on yourself so you shouldn't be able to use drone reps on yourself.
Drones are independent bodies. They have their own guns and their own reps. When I target something and tell my drones to engage, I'm telling my drones to target that entity. They're not working off of my target lock; They have their own targeting systems. That's why if I get jammed after telling my drones to shoot something, they keep shooting. The only reason my drones can't rep me is because they can't target me, and the only reason they can't target me is because I can't tell them to. This is because until recently there was no reason to allow drones to target you. That has changed. Now there is.

Can you give me a reason not to implement this change that doesn't boil down to tautology?

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 12:53:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 13/12/2010 13:17:31
Truly, this is bizarre. You folks do understand the reasons that these effects are external and not internal, right? You do understand the reasons that they're targeted and not autonomous, right? Is the problem that people really don't understand the nature and function of targeted external versus local effects, or why every single drone in the game is an external effect?

Is it the very, very basic nature of external vs local effect and targeted versus autonomous effect that're confusing folks here?

This is a bit like someone saying that they're tired of the whole nitrogen-oxygen thing and would like to breath methane, and simply pointing out that they need oxygen doesn't work until you get into a discussion of the electron transport chain.

Originally by: Jyngo

We know they're "targeted external affects" at the moment genius.


Your argument is simply so much more cogent if you start it out with flaming. Cool
Of course, nobody has been able to provide a reason why remote reps and cap transfers and drones should work on the ships that are using them, other than that they'd like it, or by misunderstanding how drones actually work, or by disregarding game mechanics entirely because they're prefer that they were different. And if you don't understand the point of targeted external effects, then of course it doesn't make any sense to you to keep them as such.

And the burden of proof is not on someone pointing out that a change isn't necessary, it's on those who do want it. And the "I have to be able to apply a remote cap transfer array to my own ship, because it just doesn't make sense that I can't" crowd haven't carried the burden of proof.

Originally by: Black Dranzer

Giving me a quote dump is not "articulating your argument".

Rolling Eyes
You claim I'm "flitting" about, I prove that I've held to the exact same argument from my very first post in this thread and any changes have been responding to your argument, which has morphed for one rationalization to the next (Drones are little ships! Okay, drones definitely are not little ships, but they're somewhat similar!), you quickly change the subject. Go figure.

Originally by: Black Dranzer

But since you refuse to


Fiction.
I have repeatedly pointed out that since they are targeted external effects, they should not be made into external-and-local effects as the whole point of that game mechanic is that you have to be able to target and direct such effects onto other gang mates that are cooperating with you or specific enemy targets that you have chosen or that your drones autoaggro onto without your control.

And you're still wrong on basic game mechanics. Of course when you target something and tell your drones to use their effect on it they're working off of your target lock. If you contend otherwise, try sending your drones after a specific target without a lock, see how well it works.

Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
Posted - 2010.12.13 13:13:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Jyngo

And as for it making drone boats overpowered, I seriously doubt it. Sacrificing most of you DPS for a modest repair isn't generally worth it in the heat of battle.


I cant say if its good for pvp or not. But i can tell you, i wasnt able to make solo a 10of10 with my rattlesnake. Then a friend helped me out with armor rep drones, medium, only tech I and i was able to tank the whole think without flying out one time.
Still doing something like this is more fun then soloing it and its supposed to be like this.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.13 16:55:00 - [124]
 

Eve is a sandbox, about choices. Currently we lack the choice of whethere our own drones can repair us, or not. They should be able to, as they are independent ships.

That is all it comes down to. It makes no logical sense that they would not be able to repair your own ship.

This is a change that is direly needed and as has been pointed out, the intuitive and logical way to do things, the lack of which has baffled many people.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.13 23:04:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Black Dranzer on 13/12/2010 23:08:38
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Of course, nobody has been able to provide a reason why remote reps and cap transfers and drones should work on the ships that are using them, other than that they'd like it, or by misunderstanding how drones actually work, or by disregarding game mechanics entirely because they're prefer that they were different.
Here are three reasons.
1) It would make sense from a fictional standpoint.
2) It would open up new gameplay possibilities without destroying balance.
3) It would be extremely simple to implement.
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
I have repeatedly pointed out that since they are targeted external effects
THAT DOESN'T ****ING MEAN ANYTHING! External has to be defined relative to something. External relative to what? Which entity is the drone's rep local to? If it's local to me, then why can't I order a drone to rep itself? If it's local to the drone, then why can't the drone rep me? But it can't be local to two ****ing objects at the same time, unless remote reps are run on Schroedinger power.
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
And you're still wrong on basic game mechanics. Of course when you target something and tell your drones to use their effect on it they're working off of your target lock.
Target locks are used as a communication mechanism between you and your drones because it was the best available at the time and it suited most of the requirements. Besides that, your drones are just little robots that act like small ships, and the only reason I'm saying "like" small ships instead of calling them small ships is because if I don't you'll go on a ****y pedantic rant about how oh look they're not technically small ships so my entire point is therefore invalidated, which willfully ignores the point I make and isn't actually an argument, but just to please you I'll say they're "like" small ships.

The only reason they can't heal me is because the interface does not support it, and there are valid reasons to alter the interface to support it. And even though it's completely ignoring your point (but I think I'm due by now):
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
If you contend otherwise, try sending your drones after a specific target without a lock, see how well it works.
I did. I clicked a button called "return and orbit", and they flew straight towards me. They did this without me having a target lock on myself, or in fact anything at all! What's more, they did it repeatedly, every time. They never went and orbited some other guy, it was always me. Gosh, isn't that something!

Neo160
Posted - 2010.12.14 02:52:00 - [126]
 

supported, repairing your self with your own drones is simply intuitive, its just illogical that this isn't possible

ReptilesBlade
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 06:46:00 - [127]
 

A definite YES!

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.12.18 17:27:00 - [128]
 

Supported

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.18 17:48:00 - [129]
 

The only good reason for me to finish l4-5 rep drones that i never use is to be abble to rep my self.

+1

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.12.18 18:13:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 24/12/2010 15:15:31
It's ****ing dumb. I was astounded when after a week of training i found them barely usefull

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.18 18:59:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
It's ****ing dumb. I was astounded when after a week of training i found them barely usefull



Happy for you Wink

Azeala Drucilla
Amarr
Manetheren Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.20 06:55:00 - [132]
 

Supported.Cool

Codename Vendetta
Posted - 2010.12.22 06:36:00 - [133]
 

Def.ya!

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.22 07:57:00 - [134]
 

I like it.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2010.12.22 08:14:00 - [135]
 

It makes sense from a realism standpoint. But it could cause problems when players increase their tank by using armor repair drones at the same time as they use an armor repair module.

Perhaps you couldn't have both work at the same time.

Mocam
Posted - 2010.12.22 12:04:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
i did initially think this is a fairly nice idea.. and i remember when i started using rep drones and wondered why i couldnt rep myself, but tbh it only enforces solo play to an extent. even pairing up with a corpmate means u can have repper drones out and helping you out, and in a game driven by co-operative play, its not exactly a difficult thing to ask!

im definitely still on the fence with this, one side of me says it makes sense to be able to do this, the other side of me says its so easy to do already and currently encourages co-operative play.


When I found out about this, I asked a logistics pilot if you could assign your drones to another ship and have that pilot send them to repair you. Nope -- can't do that either.

So you can use them to fix ships, assign them to other's control but in no way can they be used to fix you while you "own" them. That's odd don't you think?

(PS: My thoughts on assigning: Single logistics backing up a gang. You're liable to need repairs...)

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.22 12:47:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Mocam

When I found out about this, I asked a logistics pilot if you could assign your drones to another ship and have that pilot send them to repair you. Nope -- can't do that either.

So you can use them to fix ships, assign them to other's control but in no way can they be used to fix you while you "own" them. That's odd don't you think?

(PS: My thoughts on assigning: Single logistics backing up a gang. You're liable to need repairs...)


You still don't get it, do you? Try and get into the spirit of mutual cooperation: you rep him, he reps you! And look up 'spider-tanking' while you're at it. EVE sports excellent mechanisms for getting repped in a fashion that benefits all. What it does not do, however -- and really never should, IMHO -- is allow a convoluted 'path' in which you bring your drones under someone else's control, so you can then indirectly rep yourself anyway.

Jahpahjay
Posted - 2010.12.22 13:57:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Mocam

When I found out about this, I asked a logistics pilot if you could assign your drones to another ship and have that pilot send them to repair you. Nope -- can't do that either.

So you can use them to fix ships, assign them to other's control but in no way can they be used to fix you while you "own" them. That's odd don't you think?

(PS: My thoughts on assigning: Single logistics backing up a gang. You're liable to need repairs...)


You still don't get it, do you? Try and get into the spirit of mutual cooperation: you rep him, he reps you! And look up 'spider-tanking' while you're at it. EVE sports excellent mechanisms for getting repped in a fashion that benefits all. What it does not do, however -- and really never should, IMHO -- is allow a convoluted 'path' in which you bring your drones under someone else's control, so you can then indirectly rep yourself anyway.


Okay, first of all, I get the whole idea of being in a fleet and supporting each other makes for interesting gameplay, and I completely agree.

However, given the fact that being in a fleet already has a huge advantage over somebody who happens to be flying alone, I don't agree that being able to rep yourself with your own drones will stop people from working together--especially since the person who is using repping drones is losing out on the dps from combat drones they could be using instead.

It simply allows a player to have the option to last a bit longer (for help to arrive maybe, which is in agreement with your stance that working together is better for eve), and possibly allow for more diverse fitting possibilities. It seems like we should have the option to do so.

If you don't want to use logistic drones in that fashion, no one would be forcing you to, but let others who want to try something different do so.

Sadior
Posted - 2010.12.22 14:32:00 - [139]
 

supported

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers

Posted - 2010.12.22 15:05:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 22/12/2010 15:07:08
Supported.

You need to remember that if you have repair drones out that you now don't have ecm drones or damage drones out.

You do get a benefit but you also lose a benefit.

And I think saying repair drones encourage grouping is a moot point. There are so many benefits to grouping up that repairs drones don't even really factor in. Allowing repair drones to repair own ship is not going to discourage people from joining gangs and solo instead imo.

Blastfizzle
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:05:00 - [141]
 

I don't see a reason why not to do so, therefore I support.

Marked Ugler
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:16:00 - [142]
 

Mkes all ****ing sence in the wrold. Mkae it wrock

Luminus Mallus
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:26:00 - [143]
 

This idea of course extends to SHIELD repair too.

George K'ntara
Gallente
We Build Stuff Inc.

Posted - 2010.12.24 15:49:00 - [144]
 

Has always annoyed me that this couldn't happen.

Since DPS is king in PVE, this may increase the isk faucet that is mission running, but that should be fixed by the continuing work CCP is doing on making less but smarter and harder NPC's the norm.

In PvP I don't think it would unbalance anything greatly and just add more variety to peoples setups.

Voltlokk
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.12.26 02:21:00 - [145]
 

I was kind of annoyed that I couldn't use repair drones on myself. I support this. Players will have a choice; armour/shield tanking with drones for the sacrifice of not using combat drones for higher DPS

Daniel L'Siata
Gallente
Don't Regret Until Next Keg
Posted - 2010.12.27 04:41:00 - [146]
 

Totally supported, makes no sense that you can't really.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service

Posted - 2010.12.27 05:12:00 - [147]
 

As we're supposed to be in a sandbox this gets my support under the notion, that I want this for ALL drones.
If one group of drones can target the host-ship and apply what ever utility it has onto it, then all the others can do the same, no artificial restrictions to protect the idiots here.

If there is just a slight chance of reading some ones ragequit on the forums about his own drones shooting him down, I WANT TO READ THAT.

/supported, for ALL DRONES

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.27 05:15:00 - [148]
 

Ah, I am reminded:

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Here are three reasons.



2/3 of those obviously aren't reasons to do anything. Immortals who communicate at FTL speeds? Fictional justifications are bankrupt. Whether or not it's simple to implement is a non sequitor.

As for not destroying balance, as you have steadfastly handwaved the fact that they are targeted external effects, you are obviously ignoring why changing that changes the balance. Just like you can't claim that letting ships self-target with their remote reps wouldn't change balance. Earlier you actually supported letting single ships web themselves into warp, totally obviating the need for cooperative play in situations that have always demanded it.

Originally by: Black Dranzer

THAT DOESN'T ****ING MEAN ANYTHING!


You have reached the point in your argument where you are using shrieking (and factually erroneous shrieking). I am, however, beginning to grok why you don't understand the game mechanics involved in the issue. It's a bit odd that you still don't understand that drones are not ships any more than missiles are ships or POS mods are ships, but hopefully this concept won't prove too esoteric.

What, do you think, is the purpose of a targeted external effect? Why are they external rather than local, did CCP just flip a coin? Why are they reliant on being directed against a locked target in order to achieve specificity, is that random? How do these mechanics mesh with the concept of a cooperative engagement between disparate elements, and how does allowing external effects to duplicate local effects alter the schema and balance between the three types of slots, drone loadouts, and cooperative/solo play? Is it just coincidence that there are logi ships, local reppers, buffers and resist tanks?

Once you can answer those questions I'd wager that the holes in your position should become much more obvious to you, and the reason why "targeted external effects" is not a meaningless phrase, yes, even when a POS has modules anchored outside the shields, will become clear.

Originally by: Black Dranzer

how oh look they're not technically small ships so my entire point is therefore invalidated


This is a good example of why your argument crumbles. Of course you've used your false claim that drones "are" ships as an argument, to claim otherwise is absurd. And you only "retracted" it (grudgingly and with a faux retraction) when you were shown you were wrong. And once shown it was wrong, you're still using it while claiming that you're not while complaining about not being allowed to use it.

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
If you contend otherwise, try sending your drones after a specific target without a lock, see how well it works.
I did. I clicked a button called "return and orbit"


This is another very good example of the fundamental lack of coherence and blatant game-playing that your argument is based around. When the facts do not fit, you've invented new ones. Faced with the fact that you simply can not send your drones to engage a specific target without a target lock, you've deliberately claimed that recalling drones is the same as having your drones engage a target. Of course, we both know that you really can't send drones to engage a specific ship you haven't targeted, which is why you changed the subject and pretended it was the same.

Ironically enough you've also shown another reason why your position lacks merit: targeted external effects that can now be recalled at will and become invulnerable, have to be targeted individually to be effected by enemies, can be swapped from local to external effects at will, can be external and local while being independent of both ship capacitor and sensor integrity, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, that doesn't alter balance or distort the entire logic of EVE's interactions, because you'd really like to use solace armor reppers on yourself. Rolling Eyes

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.27 05:43:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 27/12/2010 05:47:33
By the way, is that account your main or do you have another one? Because judging from that account's stats, you have under two dozen kills, and almost exclusively use frigates...
I'm just curious as to how much experience you have with how EVE actually works.

Your confusion over what targeted external effects are, how they fit into the balance and schema of EVE and your frustration over my use of the term would make a lot more sense if your exposure to the game is limited in the way that your stats seem to suggest. I'd at least know where I need to start explaining things.

For some "the environment is totally anoxic" is all the explanation they need. Others need a discussion on the electron transport chain, the nature of metabolism and to have an understanding of respiration built from the ground up. I haven't been having much progress with the former dynamic, and I'd like to know how much farther I have to go towards the latter to bridge any conceptual gaps that you may have. Once we get that down I can begin explaining to you what TEE's are, and why they exist as they do. Just let me know what level of detail I have to start with.

Thanks much in advance.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.27 05:58:00 - [150]
 

The problem, FAZ, with your argument is that drones can target independently of their mothership. That is indisputable.


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