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blankseplocked [Proposal] End to the Tyranny of Major 0.0 Alliances
 
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Averos556
Posted - 2010.11.29 12:02:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Averos556 on 29/11/2010 12:22:17
Edited by: Averos556 on 29/11/2010 12:20:00
I've rattled my brain a bit on the issue, and I can't think of any balancing solution to the current situation without either being:

A) completely ineffective
B) so overpowered it directly destroys assets of a character.

Though with things progressing the way they have, the latter option might be the only real potential solution.

Lets be honest, all power in the game is directed into the hands of a few select alliances and corporations and the few characters that control them. These organizations in turn sit in the best space, take the best moons, resources, BPO's, systems, whatever they like, and horde assets. They maintain puppet alliances around them, splitting 0.0 primarily but even Empire space into factions pro this or pro that. There is hardly a system in the game lacking this influence, the only exceptions being systems these organizations have written off as 'not worth the effort'. With these assets, the major alliances sit on their space uncontested, and can only be challenged by another of their kind. No other organization has the assets, the income, not to mention the capital and super capital fleets large enough to take on such an alliance. The 'sandbox' of eve, the self described open universe of a game, is truly closed. You must know someone to get in. Even if you don't want in, you must know someone who is, because everyone else does. How can you not, when these alliances can drop in 20 supercaps or hundreds of paid mercenaries on a whim, without even batting an eye at the potential cost?

Why? Because they don't care. They don't care if they lose 20 supercaps. They don't care if they lose 100. Why would they? With assets and reserves and income like that, it can all be replaced. To them at least, anyone else would be bankrupt by such a loss. One could take all players not immediately involved in 0.0 alliances and compare them to just one of these major organizations, all the thousands of them in Empire space, add their collective incomes and still not match the 0.0 alliance.

Even besides all of aspects of the game created by player influence, there remains the countless changes by CCP to help these major alliances in their continued domination of every aspect of the game. Recent improvements to 0.0 incomes for example, infrastructure improvements, constant tearing of minerals, plexes, pirates and planets in favor of 0.0 systems. The complete inability for players to have access to a super capital without sovereignty, much less the ability to afford one ensures that only the most powerful can obtain these ships. And yet, even in changes and additions CCP would call 'fair and balanced', the equation still favors these major alliances. Factional Warfare is now practically an extension of proxy 0.0 wars, each Faction backed by a particular alliance. Recent Incursions in Tyrannis have been even worse. Any system not in high security space was either completely locked down by a 0.0 alliance at the time of the incursion, controlled by proxy by a Factional Warfare group, or most recently, completely ignored because 0.0 alliances realized there was no profit to be gained by them. Why does no one else show up you ask? Because these alliances have already ruined this new aspect of the game for everyone else. CCP's "solution" is to do nothing, or to blatantly assist the very alliances that hold power over the rest of the players. No doubt because GM's still maintain characters in these alliances, and yet claim no conflict of interest?

So, that is the problem. Glaringly obvious as it is.

What is the solution? I don't know if there is one.

Any possibility would likely be incredibly complicated, effect nearly every aspect of gameplay and would take months to hash out. But perhaps now is a good time to get started? Haven't these organizations ruined the game for long enough?

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.29 12:13:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 29/11/2010 12:13:50
First in what will be an epic flame fest.

They worked hard to get where they are, if you can get more people to follow you and out blob a small o.o Alliance and take space you are in.

Then make allies and start a War to expand your territory. This is the end game of EVE and it is not easy to have your corp fly your flag as the leader of an Empire.

Work for it and stop worrying about super caps that will die like anything else if you apply enough numbers to the problem. Oh and if an Alliance lost 20 they would care.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.11.29 12:14:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Averos556
I've rattled my brain a bit on the issue, and I can't think of any balancing solution to the current situation without either being:

A) completely ineffective
B) so overpowered it directly destroys assets of a character.

<snip>

What is the solution? I don't know if there is one.

<snip>



You make your problem obvious, but you have no proposal to offer at all, even though you marked the thread as a proposal. At this point in the thinking process general discussion or features and ideas forums might be a better choice, since you are just basicly asking others to give out their ideas. After you have something you think might be worthy of implementing with slight tweaks, come back here and we can discuss it and vote on it.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.11.29 12:23:00 - [4]
 

Once upon time there was no alliances in game. However regardless of that there were entities that people knew by their names. Curse Alliance, Querious Defence Force to name a two, all it takes is select few people meet in the poorly lit room, exchange few nods and so things happen. If for example Black Avatar and Imperium Tehnologies CEO's meet in such room (to say .. make for example "chat channel" called QDF) there is not a lot CCP can do about it. And all the sudden if you go and take a bite out of Black Avatar assets shortly afterwards you find that Imperium Technologies guys just accidentaly happened to pass by, see you as bigger threat and gank you with Black Avatar guys.

It was before my time ofc. Point is however, that if you prevent in game ways of coordinating it will be done out of the game, putting 'small guys' at even greater disadvantage as they probably lack the out of the game infrastructure. Not everyone can afford a teramspeak server that can take thousand clients connecting to it, while EVE-Voice is free and usable even by 'small guys'.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.11.29 14:26:00 - [5]
 

Is there supposed to be some sort of proposal behind this?

Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2010.11.29 18:40:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
Is there supposed to be some sort of proposal behind this?


I'm assuming something like 'nerf the NC they are strong and mean SadSadSadSad'

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2010.11.29 19:50:00 - [7]
 

I feel your pain on this, but to change it would change Eve. Sure, groups like the NC control vast amounts of territory and resources but it wasn't always that way and it probably won't always be that way. BoB once controlled ridiculous amounts of power too but because of the game's mechanics and not in spite of them, BoB self destructed.

That is the fundamental ebb and flow of Eve.

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.11.29 21:51:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Dlardrageth on 29/11/2010 21:51:49
Totally agree this is a game-breaking problem that will be the downfall of EVE! CCP better act fast or the game will be no more in a mere ~18 months~! Oh... wait... I thought you were talking about lag... nvm then... Laughing

IBTL as the proposal proposes... nothing?

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.11.30 03:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Averos556
These organizations in turn sit in the best space, take the best moons, resources, BPO's, systems, whatever they like, and horde assets. They maintain puppet alliances around them, splitting 0.0 primarily but even Empire space into factions pro this or pro that.
Yes, because they fought to earn and keep it. Completely fair mechanism. If you want to address the mechanisms that lead to their power (entry chokepoints, old skool POS spam, increased ease of logistics, etc) you might have something to address. But changing all the stuff now isn't going to remove the hold that they have. Damage has already been done.
Originally by: Averos556
One could take all players not immediately involved in 0.0 alliances and compare them to just one of these major organizations, all the thousands of them in Empire space, add their collective incomes and still not match the 0.0 alliance.
You have a terribly flawed view of the economy.
Originally by: Averos556
No doubt because GM's still maintain characters in these alliances, and yet claim no conflict of interest?
Ok now you are getting just a wee bit too tinfoil hat.

I agree that monolithic self-sustaining alliances are a crappy part of the game. But your misinformed ranting isn't the way of going about changing it.


Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2010.11.30 04:00:00 - [10]
 

I almost didn't want to take the time to respond to this due to the vast amount if incorrect info, but let me try to summarize.

"sandbox" = The idea of the Sandbox in eve is to allow the players to drive the results. In any scenario you do this you will drive a few major power blocs, a few second and third tier power blocks and their pets. the idea to put in measures to stop this would in fact prevent the open "sandbox" results you are stating are not there.

The 2 additional points i want to deflate for you are as follows
1.) "Even besides all of aspects of the game created by player influence, there remains the countless changes by CCP to help these major alliances in their continued domination of every aspect of the game. Recent improvements to 0.0 incomes for example, infrastructure improvements"
Look, one of the MAIN reasons for some of the dominion changes was in fact to try and accomplish the exact opposite. CCP changed game mechanics to make it EXTREMELY expensive to hold space and easier to take it over. In addition, they added even more costs for upgrades. Do you realize that having a system with a jump bridge now costs 300 mil a month and cyno jammed system now costs 600 mil a month... EACH.. on top of regular sov bills and such. This on what used to be essentially free.
Their upgrades to plexes and other PVE elements were to allow alliances to reduce space and support same number of people. If you don't know already.. a team of about 5-10 people (or less) could consume all of the DED complexes in an entire region in less than a day. In most cases these changes didn't impact 0.0 the way CCP intended, but the point is still valid that you are misunderstanding CCPs intent.

2.) only a few alliances dominate and no one else can play the 0.0 game (yes im paraphrasing)
basically this is inaccurate also. If you .. as 1 person wanted to take over some 0.0 space.. you CAN.. not easily.. but then again, those that have the space didn't get it easily. you either:
A.) form an alliance, build it up good and strong, prove its worth and get taken in as an ally.. build up stronger until you are independent.. or
B.). work your ass off as a renter.
0.0 is obviously a lot more dynamic that you know. here are a list of just a FEW space holding 0.0 alliances that have come and gone
Roadkill
Smash
DMC
IAC
Ka Tet
Triumvirate
IRON
TCF
Not to mention the recent issues around BOB/Kenzoku/IT alliance and most recently Goonswarm.
.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2010.11.30 04:08:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Averos556
Edited by: Averos556 on 29/11/2010 12:22:17
So, that is the problem. Glaringly obvious as it is.


Actually, no, it isn't. What is the problem?

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:04:00 - [12]
 

You are given a choice with wormhole systems. Yes, you can own your "gold mine" space even with just a couple of friends. Besides, W-Space is far more profitable for individual players than nullsec. Individual players don't get a single ISK from moon mining, while in W-Space, you share everything.

Fight between large alliances is a whole new dimension of this game. You can choose to participate in it by joining (or forming) a large alliance, or you can choose not to participate in it. Every choice has its pros and cons. Decide for yourself and choose how you would like to play.

P.S.
You would be surprised what good organisational skills, a couple of fleet commanders, just a little ISK and a lot of diplomacy can create. Try it for yourself before crying on the forum about it.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:56:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik

You would be surprised what good organisational skills, a couple of fleet commanders, just a little ISK and a lot of diplomacy can create. Try it for yourself before crying on the forum about it.


That is good point. Basically what you need to be the new powerhouse of EVE is good leadership skills (real life one, not the ingame thingies) and few good FC's and damn big pile of dedication for the dream of power. Good chunk of ISK will help, but is not essential in my opinion. Just would take a bit longer at first to get the avalanche moving.

There is downside of this though. If alliance leader will have to leave it can make the whole thing crumble horribly fast. The good alliance leader is sort of like a 'soul' of entity - without it it's just a shell, a pile of meat for the grinder. And the good FC's are your flags and banners, rise them and and pilots rally around them to shed their share of blood even against odds that do not look good at first glance.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.30 15:00:00 - [14]
 

Evil zionist cabal...in space Shocked

Red Raider
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.30 19:03:00 - [15]
 

Shut up and pay your rent! Twisted Evil

Professor Screweyes
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.30 22:22:00 - [16]
 

While we're ending the tyranny of 0.0 alliances, we should also end the tyranny of pirates hitting helpless low sec miners and mission runners, mercs camping helpless haulers in jita, suicide gankers tormenting helpless targets of opportunity in empire, scammers victimizing the "It's too good to be true, so I'd better jump on it" crowd, wormhole corps hoarding wormhole loot, T2 BPO owners killing the margins of helpless inventor/builders.... and so on.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:30:00 - [17]
 

So if I read the OP right, its calling for the sandbox of Eve to be so strictly regulated that players can't band together toward a common goal.

I don't even know what that is, as both communism and capitalism disagree with that idea.

I do wish the barrier to entry to self owned 0.0 wasn't so high, but regulation on this should be a player based thing, just like the players took care of the BoB situation.

Flesh Slurper
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.01 02:16:00 - [18]
 

Oh the tyranny! Some people work harder and are better at making friends than you and so now you need a change to the game to fix it!

GIGAR
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.01 07:43:00 - [19]
 

I can't say if there's a solution, but it'd be nice if the CSM discussed the original design intent of 0.0 space with CCP, compared to what we have now.
It would be very nice to have some CCP feedback on what "0.0 space is supposed to be".


 

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