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Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:24:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Forum Guy
If we follow your reasoning there would be no skill tree left.
Actually it was your argument. That it would result in the removal of all skills simply shows it isn't a very good one.


I can see you are unable to reason on any sensible level so as far as you are concerned, i'll leave it there.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:26:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
I can see
We've been through this before.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:27:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Forum Guy
I H8 U Evil or Very Mad
H8 you more Razz

Heh Heh

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:30:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
I've not seen anyone complaining about skills other than the learning skills (trolls aside), have you?


What about people mentioning it will take x number of years to max out all the skills? As if playing the game was to achieve this feat over all other options, bar none.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:30:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Forum Guy
I H8 U Evil or Very Mad
H8 you more Razz

Heh Heh



Nah, I don't hate anyone, life is too short to hold grudges.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:36:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Forum Guy
I H8 U Evil or Very Mad
H8 you more Razz

Heh Heh

Laughing

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:38:00 - [127]
 

Arbitrary limits and mandatory skills are bad, m'kay?

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:39:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Forum Guy
I've not seen anyone complaining about skills other than the learning skills (trolls aside), have you?


What about people mentioning it will take x number of years to max out all the skills? As if playing the game was to achieve this feat over all other options, bar none.


Why would people want to max out all the skills half of them would be useless to them anyway, surely that's not why most people play the game. I know some people want to be the ones with the highest amount of sp but personally I could not careless about that.

Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.11.28 18:01:00 - [129]
 

To the OP:

Complexity you seek? How about meaningful complexity, rather than millions of inane, idiotic, little tweaky things posing as complexity? Did you know that consciousness in 3 dimensions is only possible by connection to the quantum field via Pi electron resonance clouds contained in the tubulin protein molecules of neuronal microtubules? <-- that is complex. This game, not so much...

Patience? I am currently enrolled in an atmospheric physics class. Doing some reasonable arithmetic, I calculate that it takes longer to train EvE's fake skills in Planetology from 4 to 5 than it does to complete a real upper division science course in Atmospheric Physics. Sorry, but patience does not enter into it. It seems completely bogus to make EvE's fake skills that are really just a timer that unlocks game content, to take longer than actually learning real hard science. Bogus.

Remaps? Skills trees are stupidly designed to encompass radical variation in the attributes needed to efficiently learn any given tree. [Try training for exploration and you'll see what I mean.] And we can only map attributes once in 365 days. This pushes players to use stupid looking training scenarios that accommodate the stupidly designed skills trees. Players should not be so constrained, as such stupid game mechanics are not in any way tied to fun. And if you want to call that "fun complexity", I will counter by calling it a stupid, inane, and annoying exercise in tedium. There are two fixes for this, as I see it: 1) align all skills in a given tree with the same attributes, or 2) leave the stupidly designed skills trees as they are, but allow remaps much more often to accommodate them.

An avalanche? There should be an avalanche in the wings. EvE's UI is so outdated, and is complete garbage by any standards, let alone comparison to any other modern MMOs. In terms of meeting the competition, and keeping up with modern technical standards, EvE is in need of a lot of rework. Avalanche? Please, bring it on !

Biocross
Posted - 2010.11.28 18:41:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Forum Guy
I've not seen anyone complaining about skills other than the learning skills (trolls aside), have you?


What about people mentioning it will take x number of years to max out all the skills? As if playing the game was to achieve this feat over all other options, bar none.


Why would people want to max out all the skills half of them would be useless to them anyway, surely that's not why most people play the game. I know some people want to be the ones with the highest amount of sp but personally I could not careless about that.


Nobody wants to have the most skills. Most people just want to be able to fly X at moderate competency, or even high competency. I find the "Skills don't matter" crowd tend to be people with numerous alts and who can do everything in the game, so for them skills trully don't matter.

For real people though, skills matter a lot. And not in the "gotta catch them all" sense, but in the "can't do anything" one.

Noelle Fay
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:10:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Kyra Felann
Needless complexity - bad
Complexity that adds depth - good

I think learning skills are an example of the former. They add no real depth or strategic decisions. They are an unnecessary speed bump on the way to training skills that do stuff.



Pretty much. And being able to sell faction ships on the market is a bad idea..why exactly?

I think there is no need to explain why the removal of learning skills is anything but a step towards making Eve more "simple", as that has been discussed enough here. I'm just surprised people even manage to think of it that way. I couldn't possibly find 1 single reason to even have those skills in the first place. From a game design point of view, learning to learn is just bad anyway.

People get upset about anything though, so whatever...

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:14:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 28/11/2010 19:17:57
Quote:
Originally by: MotherMoonbut CCP introduced an artificial boundary with the double training speed.

I agree with you, but I still think you and other over look what really happened. Learning skills were not complained about as much if at all UNTIL THIS CHANGE.

Oh they were always complained about. But if the boost is the real problem now, the boost should be fixed.



oh come on man, you've been around as long as I have, the thread would pop up randomly, but never in the numbers it had been over the past year or so.

could be other reasons for that though.

edit:

hey no one commented on my point that learning skills also make players think that sp MUST be important if there is a skill dedicated to just getting it faster. And that the removal my have the added benefit of making new players in a few years think that sp must not be the focus of the game since there are so few way to increase it, and will focus on other parts of the game to get their gamer, progression fix. (who will completely forget about today's forum spam, in the way way of vaga nanos)

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:26:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 28/11/2010 19:17:57
Quote:
Originally by: MotherMoonbut CCP introduced an artificial boundary with the double training speed.

I agree with you, but I still think you and other over look what really happened. Learning skills were not complained about as much if at all UNTIL THIS CHANGE.

Oh they were always complained about. But if the boost is the real problem now, the boost should be fixed.



oh come on man, you've been around as long as I have, the thread would pop up randomly, but never in the numbers it had been over the past year or so.

could be other reasons for that though.

edit:

hey no one commented on my point that learning skills also make players think that sp MUST be important if there is a skill dedicated to just getting it faster. And that the removal my have the added benefit of making new players in a few years think that sp must not be the focus of the game since there are so few way to increase it, and will focus on other parts of the game to get their gamer, progression fix. (who will completely forget about today's forum spam, in the way way of vaga nanos)


I don't think its a good point. Sp is very important as you need it to do things. The pro learnings crowd seems to think that the anti learnings crowd wants sp for the sake of sp, but the fact is that without sp, or skills, you can't do anything.

Getting rid of the boost would be a terrible solution unless the purpose was to make eve a deserted wasteland.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:33:00 - [134]
 

My thoughts:

Has anyone ever started a second account and spent weeks and weeks of trainig just for mandatory skills like Learning?

Has anyone brought a friend to the game, or just told a newbie in your corp to train learning for the next x weeks to do things "properly" ?

Both are common events in this game and both are complete joykills, which explains the general elation at this announcement.

So yes, its a good change, but at the same time it does simplify the game in a negative way.

If you consider skillpoints like fixed income in real life, you will see there is natural variety introduced by people's own individuality. Some people wanna squirrel away their money for retirement. They can't afford everything they want now, but in the long term they will have way more to spend from investments. Others will take what they get and blow it on fun stuff right away.

Its a bit silly to expect newbs to read up all the materials on optimizing skill training and plan for the future where it takes them over a year (or more) to recoup their skillpoint investments. But people do it, the resources are already there, and they get an advantage over those who don't.

Is the tradeoff CCP made here worth it? I'd say yes, but there is always another way to do things:

In my opinion, the rate of skill training is way too fast and right now its only getting faster. And the longer skillpoints accumulate, the more homogenous and rounded characters become. Most of the playerbase is now a bunch of jack-of-all-trades types. One of the ways this affects the game is organizational teamwork.

In newer corporations, the things people can do are limited and they're forced to have specific people fill specific roles. In older organizations, just having the right number of people online matters - not who they are, because its expected that each person is gonna be rounded enough to fill any role needed at the time. The longer the game goes on, and the bigger the organization, the less uniqueness and relevance your character is going to have.

Which is more fun for you? Joining a corporation because they wanted +1 in the membercount, or joining a corporation because you can supply them with something they need or lack?

I would have removed Learning skills without giving everyone +12 attributes, slowing down the overall training rate. At the same time, players would be allowed to boost skill training by up to 50% by leeching skillpoints from skills they already trained.

This lets people respecialize their characters very very slowly over time. It makes sense in both ingame fiction and from the game design point of view that newbies should not be punished in the long run for mistakes made in the early game (which the attribute respec and current Learning removal changes address).

Tell me if this is familiar: "I'm combat specced but I have some mining".

A new set of Learning skills could be introduced to speed up the rate of respec (10% per level up to 50%). So if you plan to do a major shift from say.. Minmatar to Caldari, you could sink some skillpoints into this area and do it faster than the guy who is just making minor changes by depleting a single skill to zero. When you're done, you recover the skillpoints you invested in Learning by depleting them back to zero. In effect, you're penalized temporarily in total skillpoints available during the time period that you are trying to change your character.

After these changes, the total skillpoint count is probably the only thing that will make characters unique - but its a metric that won't matter as much. Anyone can aim for total efficiency. It also results in there being a lot more "full specialists" (ie. everything to 5) because players will be less tempted to average and balance out their skillpoints equally. This encourages specific team roles, and makes unique corporations/divisions based on specific skill sets viable.


~138m sp and countin'

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:36:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Biocross
For real people though, skills matter a lot. And not in the "gotta catch them all" sense, but in the "can't do anything" one.

Originally by: Gallians
I don't think its a good point. Sp is very important as you need it to do things. The pro learnings crowd seems to think that the anti learnings crowd wants sp for the sake of sp, but the fact is that without sp, or skills, you can't do anything.

Exactly. SP as such don't do anything to enable you to fly anything but to be able to fly a number of ships and fullfil a number of roles you need SP - and A LOT of them. No SP means not being able to do anything at all.

It already takes 1.5 - 2 years to be able to fly and fit a variety of ships and be able to say do logistics, cov ops, L4 missioning and fly a T3 cruiser, all with decent t2 fits. 2 years is a long enough wait, I don't see why we should extend that by 2 months from training learning skills.

The "catching up" thing is an illusion, most people don't want to be able to do more than other, older players - they want to be able to do things at all, preferably with good support skills.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:40:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
The "catching up" thing is an illusion, most people don't want to be able to do more than other, older players - they want to be able to do things at all, preferably with good support skills.

True to a degree, but I now train things just 'because'. Remember once you hit level 5, you ain't going any higher.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.28 19:40:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Gallians on 28/11/2010 19:44:15
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
4000 characters worth of nerf new players 4l


This is what I'm talking about. People with 138 million sp not only think SP doesnt matter but that people should train slower which is, mind boggling to say the least.

The rate of training is way too slow my good sir, some skills take months to train. There is already specialization but that only applies to newer chars because they have low amounts of SP.

If what you want is specialization like that I would say make training faster and instill a SP ceiling. Say, 50 million. Now that would be true specialization wouldn't it?

People above that ceiling should have their SP removed to bring them down to that ceiling. There you go, specialization at a rate that newer people can actually train without losing their minds.

win win win win.

That is, unless the real purpose is to nerf new people and ensure they not only never catch up, but can never fly anything.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:35:00 - [138]
 

You're quite the pleb if you think I'd even bother to write a post just to 'nerf newbies'. Its the most laughably generic response you could have come up with. Its like whenever I write something to increase the level of pvp consequences or player interaction, I get called a griefer. No, I wrote it because I have a far better perspective on character advancement than most, and can offer an alternative suggestion to what CCP is doing. I've seen it from multiple angles many times, including starting new characters, starting specialized characters, and helping newbies with their own training plans.

Right now there are only two motivations for a faster skill training rate, and they're both garbage:

Business reality: CCP has a ton of ships, content and playstyles, they want players to experience many in order to keep them interested and keep them subscribed.

The problem: Its more fun in the short term, but in the long term people run out of newness. You basically burn through all that content at a faster rate, because they'd rather have you stick around for 1-2 years guaranteed than hope you're still interested in new space pixels five years later.

- Selfishness: Players want to advance faster.

The problem: Everyone plays by the same rules and the relative difference always stays the same. It even increases in the case of attribute respecs, because only vets can keep training two attribute types for a full year without gimping themselves. The same goes for implants.. making them cheaper to the point where everyone can afford them just makes them a requirement, and screws over the casuals and newbies who can't invest that much without grinding for a longer time.

The idea I mentioned addresses both in significant ways. If I had anything to add to it, it would be that I'd want to see the skillpoint shifting apply from any character on the same account *except ones you purchased*.

This lets people with a lot of sp divide it up into 2 or 3 different personas and engage in different styles of play. Wanna do Minmatar RP but you're Amarr and can't even fly Minmatar? Your options now are to essentially ruin your main character for a subpar experience, or get a second account and start from scratch, or get a second account and spend a lot of isk to buy an able character.

For the first time in history, there would be a legitimate gameplay reason for people having three characters on one account, as opposed to just metagaming with scout, market, and forum alts.

Killstealing
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:41:00 - [139]
 

sorry but I fail to see how forcing a 2 month waiting period is 'increasing complexity' or anything. I think, and I'm not the only one obviously, that it's just ****ing annoying and something nobody enjoys.
Also Faction ships on the market reduces complexity? More mind/market games, I say!

Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:43:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
You're quite the pleb


That was a horrible post.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:44:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I know better than you because it is self evident that I am right, because I know better.

Let them eat cake!

How I hate them ignorant plebes that in their ignorance neglect that only I have the vision to know what the game needs.


Random pretentious nonsense is the best way for people to take you seriously. True story.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:48:00 - [142]
 

Dear overly sensitive forum friend,

It was never my intention to hurt you with opinions and beliefs on the internet. I pray the day comes when you, too, can post with bold righteousness and angry demanour.

Love,
that guy who makes you so mad you wish you were him™

Ganagati
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.28 20:53:00 - [143]
 

Thanks to this update I not only have a reason to look forward to EVE in December, with some odd 1.8 million skill point to play with, but also have FINALLY managed to convinced several RL friends to join. The removal of learning skills and the accompanying bonus with an additional 2 attribute points in each attribute has removed a lot of the initial "down time" from new characters and made it so that new players can hop right into learning fun, gratifying abilities immediately without holding their character back. The difference between a 5/4 learning character and a 0/0 learning character was roughly 8 million SP per year. It would be foolish to make a new character and not learn all the learning skills first.

tl;dr version: Thank you for this CCP. This upcoming change will be the best one I've seen since starting this game for breathing even more life into a thriving game. :)

Traycea
Posted - 2010.11.28 21:07:00 - [144]
 

Luv the changes!
Lottsa of my frenz who went back to WoW because learning took too long are now asking if Eve has a lifetime subscription because they want to play and max the skills asap because its possible now. Luv it luv the changes. I hate the old people who play this game anyway they should go back to WoW.
Really the only way Mythic could improve EVE would be if they kep the 20 attrib points and brought back learning skills so we could train even faster if we train the skillz. Then we could complain again and get 40 attrib points luv the change
Happy Kwanza everyone

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.28 21:17:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
As it stands, an uninformed player would not know they could spend the same amount of money at amazon as the eve online site (less even) and get a nice huge bonus to their game. AND THAT bugs me. That after they join they are like, oh what the hell, I could of spent the same amount on a different site and got a bonus?!?!?!

THe idea itself does not bother me as long as it it kept to vanity items, and 1 month noob boosts. I'm all for noobs having an easy time at 1st. But what I'm not for is only the experienced noobs (wait what?) getting the advantage. As in stands only a current player would understand the value of the boxed bonus item, and I think that's an important fact to remember.
You’re almost there. Just a bit further and you’ll have it. Follow the money and you will understand why CCP has done it this way.

Regards,
Windjammer

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.28 21:24:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: MotherMoon
As it stands, an uninformed player would not know they could spend the same amount of money at amazon as the eve online site (less even) and get a nice huge bonus to their game. AND THAT bugs me. That after they join they are like, oh what the hell, I could of spent the same amount on a different site and got a bonus?!?!?!

THe idea itself does not bother me as long as it it kept to vanity items, and 1 month noob boosts. I'm all for noobs having an easy time at 1st. But what I'm not for is only the experienced noobs (wait what?) getting the advantage. As in stands only a current player would understand the value of the boxed bonus item, and I think that's an important fact to remember.
You’re almost there. Just a bit further and you’ll have it. Follow the money and you will understand why CCP has done it this way.

Regards,
Windjammer



Do go on, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.28 21:25:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: MotherMoon
As it stands, an uninformed player would not know they could spend the same amount of money at amazon as the eve online site (less even) and get a nice huge bonus to their game. AND THAT bugs me. That after they join they are like, oh what the hell, I could of spent the same amount on a different site and got a bonus?!?!?!

THe idea itself does not bother me as long as it it kept to vanity items, and 1 month noob boosts. I'm all for noobs having an easy time at 1st. But what I'm not for is only the experienced noobs (wait what?) getting the advantage. As in stands only a current player would understand the value of the boxed bonus item, and I think that's an important fact to remember.
You’re almost there. Just a bit further and you’ll have it. Follow the money and you will understand why CCP has done it this way.

Regards,
Windjammer


Do we get free popcorn?

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2010.11.29 00:37:00 - [148]
 

It's rare to listen to somebody who's got their head so far up their ass you can see their forehead when they talk. (don't think about that one too much, it'll just hurt your brain)

On the bright side?
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
So yes, its a good change, but at the same time it does simplify the game in a negative way.
You're half right. Keep reaching for the stars! Very Happy

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2010.11.29 00:41:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Luminos
It's rare to listen to somebody who's got their head so far up their ass you can see their forehead when they talk. (don't think about that one too much, it'll just hurt your brain)

On the bright side?
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
So yes, its a good change, but at the same time it does simplify the game in a negative way.
You're half right. Keep reaching for the stars! Very Happy


Damn...i'm trying to picture that. It just doesn't work...how is the forehead coming out of their mouth...and how can you see the mouth if his head is up his ass that far?

The answer to this is more important than anything previously discussed in this thread.

alittlebirdy
Posted - 2010.11.29 00:50:00 - [150]
 

Make game more easy...

I have tons of alts that I never took the time to get learning skills on...

Damn that kinda messes up the "everyone needs them" sorta idea don't it?

It is plain and simple TOO hard to choose, sit back play in my noob ship do learning skills... or work towards frig 4...

Everyone cried they had to do them...

Now if only everyone cried about skills in general... maybe CCP would remove them... yay for being able to fly a titan on day 1...

O ya isk is also too much of a grind just like learning skills were...


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