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blankseplocked [URGENT ISSUE] Do not remove learning skills - its UNFAIR
 
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MataHarry
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: MataHarry on 26/11/2010 15:26:06
tl'dr - do not let eve turn into

Proper text

Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit. This decision-making was possible because CCP had A SET OF DEFINED RULES, which prescribes how game will be in the number of years down the road. Right now time spent doing this seems like a waste.

Certainly there were similar examples in the past. When CCP changed all probes, a lot of people lost money on their blueprints. And being a reasonable person, I am willing to accept that certain changes are necessary for progression of the game. However there should be a line beyond which CCP should not go.

EVE Online is all about decision making, you today’s decisions affect your future, but that is only possible if rules are unchanged and clear. The way it looks now is that CCP keeps changing those rules. That habit can have adverse consequences.

At least part of EVE's success is attributable to the fact, that CCP has extremely LOYAL base of subscribers. Such changes as remaps, plex for remaps, removal of learning skills will move game to more casual domain, but will dilute base of hard-core loyal players. Hence CCP will have higher volatility of cash flows and higher turnover of player.

DO NOT MOVE INTO THAT DIRECTION.

NOT BENDING to general market trend, does not mean you are becoming dinosaurs. Rather that company is choosing its own path for success.

VOTE FOR NO TO REMOVING LEARNING SKILLS

Here is the opposite thread, feel free to check with supporters of learning skills removal



MataHarry
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:32:00 - [2]
 

support

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:41:00 - [3]
 

All attributes gets +12 base = normal learning skill bonus.
All SP in learning skills are "released" and can be applied anywhere you want.

I have gone through the blog and have to agree with the Icelandic Alcoholics, they actually thought this one out pretty thoroughly.
System will be easier to understand and new players (read: alts) will be able to train useful skills sooner.

My biggest problem is going to be deciding where I should use the 2M SP that will be freed up.


MataHarry
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:54:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
All attributes gets +12 base = normal learning skill bonus.
All SP in learning skills are "released" and can be applied anywhere you want.

I have gone through the blog and have to agree with the Icelandic Alcoholics, they actually thought this one out pretty thoroughly.
System will be easier to understand and new players (read: alts) will be able to train useful skills sooner.

My biggest problem is going to be deciding where I should use the 2M SP that will be freed up.




completelly unrelated comment without any argument

Shinaide
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:54:00 - [5]
 

I made this choice and the sacrifice. I am also happy to see the skills go. They are really really stupid. We already received years of training at increased speeds and now we can take our "useless" SP and stick it into something better.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:56:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 26/11/2010 09:58:18
Originally by: MataHarry
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
All attributes gets +12 base = normal learning skill bonus.
All SP in learning skills are "released" and can be applied anywhere you want.

I have gone through the blog and have to agree with the Icelandic Alcoholics, they actually thought this one out pretty thoroughly.
System will be easier to understand and new players (read: alts) will be able to train useful skills sooner.

My biggest problem is going to be deciding where I should use the 2M SP that will be freed up.




completelly unrelated comment without any argument

Way better argument however than saying because you suffered them everyone else should suffer them too. Should we also make for everyone that their first expansion had the habbit of deleting boot.ini? Because i suffered it everyone should suffer it?

Also eve player base has nothing to do with loyalty, but with having no alternative for internet spaceships in open universe. And the vast majority of the long term players (read: bittervets) see this as a good change.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:11:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: MataHarry
completelly unrelated comment without any argument

How can an on-topic comment unrelated?

Even on my third read through of your post I cannot see what your argument is or even what it is you are aiming for.
My guess is that you skimmed the blog and panicked, go back and read it again and you'll see that there is no cause for alarm.

Halione
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:14:00 - [8]
 

Learning skills are a big waste of time. It is a very big turn off for new players when they find out they have to train a month worth of learning skills or else they will pay the consequences in the end. Those who spent all those learning skills lose NOTHING, u get your skill points reimbursed.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:18:00 - [9]
 

Hot damn, can you guys imagine if Eve combat was as cool as Asteroids?!

That's my next proposal, right there.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:19:00 - [10]
 

Too late. Get over it.

“The old order changeth, yielding place to new, And God fulfills himself in many ways, Lest one good custom should corrupt the world...."

- Tennyson

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

- Rev. 21:4

MataHarry
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: MataHarry
completelly unrelated comment without any argument

How can an on-topic comment unrelated?

Even on my third read through of your post I cannot see what your argument is or even what it is you are aiming for.
My guess is that you skimmed the blog and panicked, go back and read it again and you'll see that there is no cause for alarm.


because you are stupid and will be treated as such

Leila Duran
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:58:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Leila Duran on 26/11/2010 10:59:35
I suffered through it - and I found it to be very stupid.
Whenever I tried to get friends (with jobs...) to play this game the learning skills were a huge turn-off. Good riddance, ****ty game-design decision! Awesome job, CCP.

Ark Ferroraider
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:22:00 - [13]
 

support

"The character will train Trade skills so how much they are necessary."
"The character will train Learning skills so how much they are necessary."

- is a completely similar statements. Reasons in both skill group trainings also fully equal.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:23:00 - [14]
 

I think you are spitting into the wind here, the CSM were pushing for learning skills to be changed or removed themselves...

They are a big detractor from early enjoyment of the game, which is where it counts with regards to player retention. Eve should be complex, but the complexity should not be at the expense of fun.

and yes, I trained learning at the start (although not exclusively) and will be getting 5M sp to allocate.


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:37:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ark Ferroraider
support

"The character will train Trade skills so how much they are necessary."
"The character will train Learning skills so how much they are necessary."

- is a completely similar statements. Reasons in both skill group trainings also fully equal.

Huh? Wtf are you trying to say? Some grammar would be handy to make yourself understandable.

Anyway if i am going to guess what you are going at, everyone had to train learning skills directly in the beginning, there was no serious choice. Trading skills are an option, you can do that, it costs time, but you can do stuff perfectly fine without them (i got 50M SP and lousy trading skills, and the reason they are lousy and not absolutely horrible was that i wanted to do some trading in null sec, then we got kicked out, so i didnt even use them ever). And no you cant do stuff perfectly fine without learning skills.

Elvor Dark
New Dawn Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:33:00 - [16]
 

It's too late trying to change it now, they've already decided on it. I for one am glad, learning skills were such a stupid idea and the last thing you really want to be doing is training these skills for a month or so, just for the long term benefit. When you're on a trial account, you want to get in a nice shiny new ship as quickly as possible, not worry about training these ridiculous learning skills. Well done CCP for finally getting rid of them and for allowing us to use any invested points into supplementing our other skills. I do have one question about spending these points, will you be able to train multiple skills up to level IV if you so choose and not be forced to put them all into a couple of level V skills? Anyone can answer that if they know.

Davelantor
Caldari
The Resistance Movement
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:30:00 - [17]
 

i am all for removing learning skills.
They are just there to ruin the gaming experience for the new players.
and with the method CCP is applying it, it will be fair for those who invested time for it
at least it will be worth the time i had invested in them.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services

Posted - 2010.11.26 13:54:00 - [18]
 

If anything it's unfair for those that didn't train them.

Player A) Trained learning.
* Gets millions of extra skillpoints for the time they had them trained.
* Gets millions of extra skillpoints for the "reembursement" for their susposed "loss" (more about reduction of tears then balance)

Player B) Didn't train learning.
* Gets no retroactive bonus.
* Has no real skillpoints to reemburse.

Player A comes out with a double bonus.

The way this is designed has little to do with balance and everything to do with crowd control.


JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:44:00 - [19]
 


Foodchain
Evil Dead L.L.C.
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:52:00 - [20]
 

Being rude in your topic doesn't really get you anywhere m8.

However not supported, main reason is new players don't want to train learning, they just want to get into a ship and do something useful not spending there whole tutorial training 2 monthes of skills. And to the people that learned them, they get them back so who cares? I for one enjoy it, I invested 2 monthes to get 5.3m SP it did me well, now i can do those dreddit skills that take a month to do something new. For some it's a turn off but the game has to be new player friendly.

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:05:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: KurnKuku on 26/11/2010 15:05:45
Originally by: MataHarry

Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit.



So what you are really saying is "I had to waste time to train these skills, yet despite the fact this change is not going to affect me, I will be happier if others also have to go through this burden, because I had to." ?

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 26/11/2010 15:33:34
Simplification:
Without loosers there is also no victors...

Removing those skills removes yet another nice competition from the game, which is sad...

Gauss Gun
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:29:00 - [23]
 

+1

Exile579
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:33:00 - [24]
 


Evilan Altana
Moriar Libera
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:58:00 - [25]
 

I completely disagree with your topic and do not support it.

I have trained all learning skills on multiple accounts and do not feel it is unfair in the least. Heck I even created this character origionally with CHR 3 and very balanced stats for what I anticipated to be many years of training. I still trained Presence all the way to 5 because you never know.

Remaps still required some amount of thought because of the one year limit on switching. It allowed players who have played the game for years, that wanted to switch it up the chance, and allowed for newer players to make a mistake that would not last an eternity, because in the end it is a game. If you came to just train skills, then yes remaps and the removing of learning skills might lead you to leave the game. For most of us, we tend to play for the sandbox/social/trade/industry/pvp/iskmaking(because I still think missions are boring as hell) parts of the game.

Any idiot who is a "hardcore" player that leaves because of this, good riddance, learning skills had pretty much no value to the experience of playing eve, any reasoning person could see that if they intended to play the game for any period of time it was nearly a requirement to train the learning skills.

They don't add anything to the game, it only detracts people who might genuinely enjoy and contribute to the game from getting any further than the trial, because having to train learning skills at some point just to train "actual" skills has always been a negative aspect of the game.

Eve is more than complex and harsh enough in aspects of its gameplay to fit the "hardcore" players, without forcing them to train learning skills to get to what they enjoy.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:19:00 - [26]
 

Eve may be all about griefing people, but for that to be fair it requires that an intelligent, competent player can avoid being griefed. But not so with the learning skills - either a newbie griefed himself by training them instead of something useful, or he griefed himself by not training them and instead suffered from ****ty attributes.

Good riddance.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:58:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: MataHarry

Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit. This decision-making was possible because CCP had A SET OF DEFINED RULES, which prescribes how game will be in the number of years down the road. Right now time spent doing this seems like a waste.



Please link for me where ccp says they will never alter the game to make it better.

Should ccp also remove all balancing they have done in the last 6 years ?
Remove capital ships ?
remove invention ?
remove T2 ?
remove officer gear ?
remove Faction Warefare ?
remove Soverienty ?
remove POS ?
remove Exploration sites ?
remove wormholes ?
remove PI ?

Sorry if you feel you have been nerfed in some way. But you really havnt.
You will be given back all the points you put into learning you have not lost that training.

Stop selfishly worrying about your own person situation and start thinking about what makes EVE a better game.





Biocross
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:36:00 - [28]
 

Not supported. Solution looking for an issue, learning skills are cancer, and cancer needs to be removed.

As it will be.

Good riddance.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:56:00 - [29]
 

shut up, get out, give stuff

Shin Dari
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:56:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: MataHarry
Edited by: MataHarry on 26/11/2010 15:26:06
tl'dr - do not let eve turn into

Proper text

Removing learning skill is unfair towards those people who INVESTED time and patience into developing them. Some people invested into PRESENCE 5, even though they had low charisma attribute, the reason they did it - is because they PLANNED in advance that they would want to train for leadership skills in the future. So they accepted lower training rate in return for future benefit. This decision-making was possible because CCP had A SET OF DEFINED RULES, which prescribes how game will be in the number of years down the road. Right now time spent doing this seems like a waste.
Every player in EVE is allowed to make stupid mistakes, some examples:
- People who didn't train their learning skills (or far too low)
- People who trained unnecessarily high (like you).

CCP is now correcting that mistake for you, and you get a big bag of SP as a bonus. So my advice to you is to deal with it.


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