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blankseplocked [Begging] Don't let bitter vets ruin another thing
 
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.28 11:45:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Alex Richters
Hello, bitter vet here (and even though I'm not really bitter, that's how I'm going to be judged, according to the OP).

I'm also against removing the learning skills. Malcanis brings up numerous good points (excellent post, btw), but why should the game be made easier in the first place? Iím assuming that at least most of us posting in this forum figured out eventually that learning skills were useful and trained them. New players should deal with that as well. This IS a game about choices, isn't it? From the very beginning (industry? mining? combat?) to the very end (supercarrier? dreadnought? POS?) and everywhere in between (high sec? low? null?), this game is designed to present the player with a variety of choices. What you decide to do with those choices helps shape your toon.

But all that aside, let's say you convince me that removing learning skills is a good thing - because it takes out the complexity; because it speeds up character generation / character growth; because it doesnít scare away new players. Well, why not go one step farther? Letís remove Shield Management and just improve all shield regeneration by 25%. Letís remove Drone Interfacing and just let every drone do its job 25% better. Letís remove Negotiation and get paid faster by agents.

I didnít start playing this game because the choices were easy. I joined because the opportunities are seemingly endless and every choice makes a difference, even the basic choices like ďDo I learn my next step of Clarity or do I go for Battlecruisers?Ē If I wanted a straight-forward, laid-back, no challenges kind of game, Iíd go play a platformer.



The debate is literally pointless. Did you not read the devblog? CCP explicitly say that they considered all sides of the issue and they are going to remove the learning skills whatever we say now.

The time to start fighting against their removal was a few months ago. Now the campaign has been fought, and the pro-removal guys won.

Take your nice veteran SP bonus and spend it wisely. You're not going to change anyone's mind now, and it wouldn't matter even if you did.

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.11.28 21:33:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

The debate is literally pointless. Did you not read the devblog? CCP explicitly say that they considered all sides of the issue and they are going to remove the learning skills whatever we say now.

The time to start fighting against their removal was a few months ago. Now the campaign has been fought, and the pro-removal guys won.

Take your nice veteran SP bonus and spend it wisely. You're not going to change anyone's mind now, and it wouldn't matter even if you did.


True, CCP made up their mind and we all know what that means usually... ugh That doesn't necessarily mean tho that people, if they are inclined to, have to stop to express disagreement. Just because "the man" sticks it to you doesn't mean you cannot tell him you think he is full of s***. Wink

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.11.28 22:05:00 - [33]
 

CCP needs to ignor bitter vets and run the game. looking at GD, dozens of wtf CCP threads are running rampant.

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.11.28 23:53:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp

[...]



CCP needs to ignor EMO NOOBS and run the game. looking at GD, dozens of wtf CCP threads are running rampant

"One man's hero is another man's HerpDerp..." Razz

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.11.29 02:57:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
CCP needs to ignor bitter vets and run the game. looking at GD, dozens of wtf CCP threads are running rampant.



What you mean this wtf ccp thread?

Oh wat...

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.11.29 05:31:00 - [36]
 

The Bitter vets are the only reason new guys make it out of their steep learning curve in the early months. There were many bitter vets that supported the removal of learning skills. Vets both for and against learning skills had those opinions to help the newer players. Something newer guys need to remember.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2010.11.29 08:05:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
CCP needs to ignor bitter vets and run the game. looking at GD, dozens of wtf CCP threads are running rampant.





And, in, summary, what is the proposal you want CSM to raise with CCP?

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.11.29 08:06:00 - [38]
 

+1 to getting rid of learning skills. I've been thinking of where I'm going to stick the SP I get, for the past week. 2mil sp to move around is a crap ton of SP. Right now as it stands I'm split between drones, or ewar. This is a very very hard decision.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.29 08:31:00 - [39]
 

As someone who is both a bitter vet and has multiple characters with max learning skills I can whole heartedly say removing learning skills is the best thign CCP has done since warp to zero

Miss Wraith
Posted - 2010.11.29 10:38:00 - [40]
 

It takes about 250% longer to train without them. They are not optional.

+1 for ignore bitter vets.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.29 14:52:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Anyway, I argued against removing learning skills for just this reason. As usual a campaign based on "HELP THE NEW PLAYERS" is once again rewarded with a result that benefits the vets. Pretty much the whole anti-learning skills campaign was based on the notion that new players are too stupid to work out the very simple optimum way to train learnings and are therefore discouraged. I also noted quite a few of the loudest campaigners of removing learnings deliberately giving the terrible advice of "do nothing else until you have learnings to 5/5" to new players, in order to bolster their own campaign. Clever, I cant deny, if rather unethical.

I'm just fed up wasting time on learning skills when I create new characters. That it helps the new players is just an unfortunate side effect. Wink Laughing

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.29 18:16:00 - [42]
 

I take offense that bitter vets are being blamed as the ones against the removal of learning skills. Bitter vets (like me) are the ones who complained about having to train learning skills on their 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc alt. That it benefits noobs means we can maybe get more noob friends in the game to meat shield for us.

Psyrelle
Caldari
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2010.12.06 06:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
I take offense that bitter vets are being blamed as the ones against the removal of learning skills. Bitter vets (like me) are the ones who complained about having to train learning skills on their 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc alt. That it benefits noobs means we can maybe get more noob friends in the game to meat shield for us.



+1 post.

i can't see one bad thing about removing the learning skills.

its a pain in the ass training all those learning skills up on a alt and try to explain to newbies that learning skilsl will help them in the longer run

+1 for removel of learning skills YAY!

Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
Posted - 2010.12.06 13:25:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 06/12/2010 13:27:42
-1 for removel the learning skills.

I spent many hours to find out which learning skills on which toon (building a cyno pilot is different compared to a main character) and which sequence to learn which skill to get the most out of the game.
It was part of the complexity of eve and eve supposed to be a harsh unfriendly universe where you have to compete against other players.
So i spend lots of skillpoints into learning many years ago, because i knew it was the right decision.
Getting rid of learning skill is a bad idea, because it removes part of the complexity of eve which is unique compared to other games. I dont want have an easy game, i also love to make long plans.

But ccp already made the decision. Adapt or die.

[proposal]
If you remove skillpoints please also reduce the material research time on capital ship blueprint orginals because if you buy an obelisk or moros bpo with GTC it can take half of a year to research and i want to build a capital or supercapital now and i want to compete against all players who spent years of lab time to research all their blueprints.
It will be also a good idea to get rid of any skill level. I want level V just after I injected a skill. I want to compete against long time players who have spent years to skill their characters up. This will give me more fun and after a week i can use a supercapital and kill all those bitter veterans.
And then after 3-4 month playing eve i will buy an other game and continue playing this to have even more fun.
I cant wait to play Dust 514 and World of Darkness. I want spent all my money now in moar games and moar Hardware.
It will be a good idea to buy some plexes and convert them into a bunch of skillpoints, too. I dont want to wait. I want it all now.

Psyrelle
Caldari
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:46:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle
Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 06/12/2010 13:27:42
-1 for removel the learning skills.

I spent many hours to find out which learning skills on which toon (building a cyno pilot is different compared to a main character) and which sequence to learn which skill to get the most out of the game.
It was part of the complexity of eve and eve supposed to be a harsh unfriendly universe where you have to compete against other players.
So i spend lots of skillpoints into learning many years ago, because i knew it was the right decision.
Getting rid of learning skill is a bad idea, because it removes part of the complexity of eve which is unique compared to other games. I dont want have an easy game, i also love to make long plans.

But ccp already made the decision. Adapt or die.

[proposal]
If you remove skillpoints please also reduce the material research time on capital ship blueprint orginals because if you buy an obelisk or moros bpo with GTC it can take half of a year to research and i want to build a capital or supercapital now and i want to compete against all players who spent years of lab time to research all their blueprints.
It will be also a good idea to get rid of any skill level. I want level V just after I injected a skill. I want to compete against long time players who have spent years to skill their characters up. This will give me more fun and after a week i can use a supercapital and kill all those bitter veterans.
And then after 3-4 month playing eve i will buy an other game and continue playing this to have even more fun.
I cant wait to play Dust 514 and World of Darkness. I want spent all my money now in moar games and moar Hardware.
It will be a good idea to buy some plexes and convert them into a bunch of skillpoints, too. I dont want to wait. I want it all now.



-1 to whiny attitude..

there is no complex thing about learning skills its train or not just that if you waste 1-2 month on ehm in the start you will ge sp much faster...

Orree
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:42:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: KurnKuku
Edited by: KurnKuku on 26/11/2010 01:14:38
Originally by: De'Veldrin


Those of us who were against Plex for remap were not against it because the game didn't have it when we started.




Please do explain exactly why you were against it....I for one do not understand the objection, I am not trolling, and seriously would like to see a presented argument against them.

I didn't realise what the assembly hall was until today and the learning skill death, I really wish I knew about it before, as in my mind, plex for remaps was an excellent idea.

I have had a good look around this forum (AH), only thing I can see relevant is T'Amber suggesting that MTs are bad, while totally ignoring the fact that there is RMT sanctioned by CCP through plex, and character trading is also sanctioned.

So basically plex for remaps is a micro transaction, and since micro-transactions are bad, plex for remaps is bad..... Am I understanding this is the reason plex for remaps was cancelled?






I don't necessarily care about MT's themselves.

However, Remaps allow a definable in game advantage over the other players (in terms of faster training speed due to attribute adjustments). In a game I pay a monthly fee for, I think I should be able to compete against every other player on an even basis in terms of the game mechanics I have access to.

You want Plex for paintjobs, or plex for fancy hats, or plex for hookers - fine. Because none of that affects my ability to access a game mechanic on an equal basis with you. Plex for remaps violates that rule because we're basically saying that those with more disposable income deserve to have more advanced characters in terms of core mechanics (i.e. skill points) than people who (say) have kids to feed or mortgages to pay. This is exactly the reason I don't play F2P games like evony.


Exactly. Well said.


Vets are witches! BURN THEM!

They turned me into a newt!




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