open All Channels
seplocked Market Discussions
blankseplocked implants discussion
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

derdlim
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:56:00 - [1]
 

With the changes to learning skills set to happen and the increase in base stats do the MD elitists think that attribute implants will go up in price or down in prices.

I personally believe they will spike for a while then once every mission runner cashes in there LP and floods the market the price will go down and then settle to lower than they are now.

please discuss, i would like to hear what the Great MDers think on this subject.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.25 15:24:00 - [2]
 

I suspect that the demand will drop, mostly because it creates less of benefit for cash strapped players (think newbies). I suspect that supply will drop as the price falls, I think nothing much will change...

Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.25 16:59:00 - [3]
 

Don't expect any significant change.

It might just mean newbies get their +3/4 a few days earlier, but demand will stay the same. +5 are still pretty much reserved to rich dormant/empire chars and the price is probably more an issue than training cybernetics 5 was.

Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
Ctrl Alt Elites
Posted - 2010.11.25 17:01:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nikolai Kondratiev
Don't expect any significant change.

It might just mean newbies get their +3/4 a few days earlier, but demand will stay the same. +5 are still pretty much reserved to rich dormant/empire chars and the price is probably more an issue than trainig cybernetics 5 was.


I'm inclined to go with this train of thought on the matter.

Mercenary Contractor
Posted - 2010.11.25 17:09:00 - [5]
 

to my understanding the current statmax chars will be 1 point down on primary attribute ?, perhaps the second part of our 'gift' will be +6's in the concord lp store. no great gain from old sp/hr max as well as maintaining a high price for the mods by grouping them into a store that sells meta modules for caps.

just my 2 cents (i'm probably on cloud cuckoo as per usual)

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:50:00 - [6]
 

or, on the principle of "humans as water" Wink whereby we always tend to find the easiest way out when significant numbers work a problem out.

ergo: learning skills are gone. They took friggin months. Cybernetics V is a single l5 for a fraction of that time frame and it can immediately add up to +5 to each attribute. And since you can't train learning there isnt another way of 'getting ahead' now. +3s at cyber 1 means these will undoubtedly remain more or less the same but I could see room even at current cost for a slightly increased demand for +4s then +5s.

Sunk a little bit in cause even if my theory is for crap its worth a punt Razz

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 26/11/2010 11:18:49
...

You do realize that ALL attribute implants just took a flat 10% hit in effectiveness before taking into effect anything else, don't you ? Twisted Evil
A +5 implant would actually become a +5.5 implant thanks to Learning L5, now it's just a plain old +5 no matter what.

As soon as you take into account the fact that, speaking in percentages, the drop is higher for people that didn't have maxed-out learning skills, the disadvantages are even nastier.
On top of it all, especially early on, +3s were extremely important to jumpstart the learning process, now their usefulness will plummet.


So I predict a game-wide mild decrease in implant prices, with the most obvious drop for +3s, and second most obvious for +4s.

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:24:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T

A +5 implant would actually become a +5.5 implant thanks to Learning L5, now it's just a plain old +5 no matter what.


So you whine about stuff that works as it should... from the very beginning...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:34:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Oni Triad
Originally by: Akita T
A +5 implant would actually become a +5.5 implant thanks to Learning L5, now it's just a plain old +5 no matter what.

So you whine about stuff that works as it should... from the very beginning...

What the bloody hell are you talking about ? I was merely stating a fact.
The FACT is that with all the learning skills gone (in particular "Learning"), the relative importance of implants diminishes, since implants lose 10% of their previous effectiveness, while being PARTIALLY compensated with non-conditional boosts in base attribute values, so in relative terms, they lose even more of their effectiveness.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:50:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Nikolai Kondratiev
Don't expect any significant change.

It might just mean newbies get their +3/4 a few days earlier, but demand will stay the same. +5 are still pretty much reserved to rich dormant/empire chars and the price is probably more an issue than training cybernetics 5 was.


Basically this.

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:08:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The FACT is that with all the learning skills gone (in particular "Learning"), the relative importance of implants diminishes, since implants lose 10% of their previous effectiveness, while being PARTIALLY compensated with non-conditional boosts in base attribute values, so in relative terms, they lose even more of their effectiveness.


The FACT that +5 implants will give +5 bonus and not "+5,something"... right?

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:13:00 - [12]
 

I'm more in favour of a short term spike across the board due from the influx on new subs in the upcoming expansion and people taking advantage of the CCP's Christmas gift.

Yes, while removing that 10% Learning skill bonus reduces the effectiveness of these implants, savvy folks will immediately realize that putting all that reimbursed SP in Cybernetics IV/V is the way to go in order to maximize the SP advantage. Whether they like it or not in regards to the pricing of these implants, it's a once only golden opportunity to jumpstart your SP rate for those that hadn't trained them to that level.

So, there should be quite a lot of pent up demand for +4 and +5 that needs to be filled.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:14:00 - [13]
 

2 trains of thought:

(a) with the changes you won't need +3/+4 implants on new characters to get decent SP/hour.

(b) with the changes there is a big hole at the beginning of your skillplan which just waits to be filled with Cybernetics IV/V (i.e. it is now feasible to train Cybernetics V a lot sooner).

Personally, I don't think we will see any significant price changes.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:15:00 - [14]
 

note that with Learning skills gone, implants (even if reduced in efficiency) are only way to affect training speed. imo, price will not go down.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:26:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
On top of it all, especially early on, +3s were extremely important to jumpstart the learning process, now their usefulness will plummet.


A boost in training speed is still a boost in training speed. It doesn't matter if your base stats are 5/5/5/5/5 or 17/17/17/17/17 (or whatever). Pretty much what this fellow said.

Originally by: Jagga Spikes
note that with Learning skills gone, implants (even if reduced in efficiency) are only way to affect training speed. imo, price will not go down.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:55:00 - [16]
 

They may be the only way to boost training time but an awful lot of people are going to look at their training rates with this new boost and think "Why bother?"

On my mains I trained most learnings to 4/3 and use +3 implants .. I will in effect be getting a +3 implant in every clone for free with the new 5/5 learnings PLUS the learning skill replacement (I have learning itself at 4 also on my mains) on top of that. +3s suddenly don't seem to matter to me as much, as I will already train faster. Can I train EVEN FASTER? Yes, I can, by getting those implants (replacing them if podded I mean) .. but a noob starting out might think "Why train cybernetics V, it's a long skill and I already train pretty quickly with these new attributes .. I can get into a T2 fit cruiser sooner without it!"

Also combat implants, low grades, are +2 attribute, a lot of people myself included have them on clones. So I'll train faster with them than I do now, and if I can live with +2 attributes for training I can sure as hell live without spending 40mill odd isk on +3s/90mill for +4s if I need replacement implants. Will I buy them anyway? If I have lots of isk, but that is isk I can best put into yet another awesome ship instead.

I think price will basically stay the same/might fall. I doubt an increase will happen though.

Master Flakattack
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:27:00 - [17]
 

I think the cheaper implants might see an increase in demand (due to noobs having to spend less money on skillbooks) but I doubt the +5's will be effected. If they are, it will be as a decrease.

Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:36:00 - [18]
 

I see a flat to mild increase - people who are predicting a decrease are forgetting that in skills discussion, we find people whose primary motivation in this game appears to be training faster than you (and now they can only do that with +5s)

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.11.26 20:33:00 - [19]
 

We need numbers Very Happy and a guide like Tripoli's old one. I bet it will be a lot simpler without the learning skills. Still, it would be nice to see exactly (quantitatively) what implants will do in the near future.

/posting from the too lazy to do it myself department

Berikath
Posted - 2010.11.26 21:14:00 - [20]
 

Supply is not changing at all. Usefulness of implants relative to each other remains unchanged. Implants still provide a significant boost in training speed.


I see little reason for demand to change. I suppose you could argue that they're less useful to new characters, so demand for +3s might go down slightly... or you could argue that new players will have less to spend their "faster training" budget on, so they'll get implants sooner/of a higher level... but personally I don't see demand changing a whole lot for any of 'em.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:51:00 - [21]
 

Any effect there is will be minor enough to be dwarfed by normal unrelated events and swings. In other words, it wont be noticeable.

Boogie Bobby
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Boogie Bobby on 27/11/2010 02:21:15
In the past training cybernetics 1 and getting +3's was something that happened near instantly on any new char. It's no longer such a critical item and I could see that turning into a tiny drop in demand for 3's.

Isn't supply for these pretty dynamic though? I mean the return on LP is already awful, could it really drop at all before people give up on redeeming for these things?

Also I don't think there'll be any real change in the others. The only way this stuff is changing is long term if these positive changes start showing themselves in increased subscriber numbers.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:35:00 - [23]
 

While Akita T is correct, I have a different view of how things will go. My view is that +3 implants will become more popular. For example, it costs just 750 SP to get cybernetics 1 (everyone already starts with science 3 these days). The SP barrier to +3 implants is so low, the thing is a no brainer (payback in 3 hours or so).

To get +4 implants, you have to cough up an additional 135,515 SP. With the learning skill and using only two skills all the time, that's 1.65 SP per minute boost now. Payback is in 57 days. Payback goes up to almost 63 days after learning is removed (then at a 1.5 SP per minute rate). For +5 implants, you have to train up for another 632,235 SP. That's 266 days payback with learning and almost 293 days payback without learning. And as Akita noted, it doesn't add as much relatively to training speed as it used to.

It improves when you're looking at player time (especially when training skills that you have weak attributes for) and already remapped to mem/int, but it's still a long time which grows longer when learning is removed.

In addition, there's far less incentive to remap a new character to start with mem/int focus since you're not going for the learning skills any more.

So my take is that new characters will be much less likely to go for cybernetics 5 than they were before the learning change. That means more demand for +3 and +4 implants relative to +5 implants. Sure, you'll still have characters that want cybernetics 5 for other implants or have a training plan that minimizes the cost of cybernetics 5 (either a long term training plan that spans a year or more, heavy focus on mem/int at start, a need for well rounded attributes, or a lot of training in skills with weak attributes).

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:57:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
While Akita T is correct, I have a different view of how things will go. My view is that +3 implants will become more popular. For example, it costs just 750 SP to get cybernetics 1 (everyone already starts with science 3 these days). The SP barrier to +3 implants is so low, the thing is a no brainer (payback in 3 hours or so).

To get +4 implants, you have to cough up an additional 135,515 SP. With the learning skill and using only two skills all the time, that's 1.65 SP per minute boost now. Payback is in 57 days. Payback goes up to almost 63 days after learning is removed (then at a 1.5 SP per minute rate). For +5 implants, you have to train up for another 632,235 SP. That's 266 days payback with learning and almost 293 days payback without learning. And as Akita noted, it doesn't add as much relatively to training speed as it used to.

It improves when you're looking at player time (especially when training skills that you have weak attributes for) and already remapped to mem/int, but it's still a long time which grows longer when learning is removed.

In addition, there's far less incentive to remap a new character to start with mem/int focus since you're not going for the learning skills any more.

So my take is that new characters will be much less likely to go for cybernetics 5 than they were before the learning change. That means more demand for +3 and +4 implants relative to +5 implants. Sure, you'll still have characters that want cybernetics 5 for other implants or have a training plan that minimizes the cost of cybernetics 5 (either a long term training plan that spans a year or more, heavy focus on mem/int at start, a need for well rounded attributes, or a lot of training in skills with weak attributes).



I think the fact that implants are less effective now (albeit by a small amount) due to no learning skill, coupled by the fact that a lot of noobs get the +3s right away already so you wont see MORE people going for it because just about everyone already does it the moment they can afford it right? The isk is a barrier to most new players for an immediate implant purchase, as they cost roughly 40mil isk along with everything else that a noob has to buy skillwise and equipment plus not to mention mistakes. That barrier is not being removed.

So factors affecting the price are .. the isk barrier remains making them no easier to obtain to new players and just as easy to obtain for those training an alt, the sensible people already use +3s when they can so there's not that many more people that will buy them than currently so no price increase due to demand there, as well as their slightly reduced effectiveness if you really care about those little stat details. Add all that with the fact a lot of new players will see the training times, if they are smart looking into attributes will realise that yes they do gain training speed BUT (unlike before, where learning skills+implants gave a tremendous boost from starting training speed) they gain at most a few days a month by getting the implants IF they are optimally remapped and optimally training in attribute order, is it worth the isk outlay at the start?

Cybernetics I and +3s is a no brainer when you have isk and the boost is massive, even cybernetics IV and +4s is good for a long term investment .. it's not so no brainer and fantastic when you don't have lots of isk as a new player and the boost is not so fantastic anymore though.

I think they'll stay the same or go down.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.11.27 09:32:00 - [25]
 

I don't see them going down. Whether or not they stay fairly stable or go up will depend on certain factors which depend both on rational and irrational behavior of buyers, influx of new players, unforeseen effects of changes being brought forward, etc. But I don't see them going down.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2010.11.27 15:58:00 - [26]
 

New expansion = new playes = +2 +3 and maybe +4 will sell a little better for a while.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.11.27 16:27:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
In the past training cybernetics 1 and getting +3's was something that happened near instantly on any new char. It's no longer such a critical item and I could see that turning into a tiny drop in demand for 3's.

Why in the world would it be any different? They give basically the same benefit, the skill is just as easy (easier in fact) to train, if anything new players will buy them more quickly due to more rapidly gaining skills that help their income.

Implants aren't really effected by this.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.11.27 16:43:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Covert Kitty
Quote:
In the past training cybernetics 1 and getting +3's was something that happened near instantly on any new char. It's no longer such a critical item and I could see that turning into a tiny drop in demand for 3's.

Why in the world would it be any different? They give basically the same benefit, the skill is just as easy (easier in fact) to train, if anything new players will buy them more quickly due to more rapidly gaining skills that help their income.

Implants aren't really effected by this.


It might be different because the perceived benefit is less. If you will take a new player training rate before these changes they will see the benefit of implants to boost the rate they learn their learning skills at for a start, which means they pay off much sooner than before and 'real' skills can be switched to faster. Also looking at a certain skill and thinking "That'll take 3 weeks to train! but after learning skills and implants it's only 6 days .. " as opposed to with the new system they'll see a skill that takes 7 days and with implants will take 6 days, for the investment as a noob they will see 1 day a week gain for 40million isk - as a new player that's a huge amount of isk for less of a gain, whether it's only perceived gain or real gain.

Fleshbot
Posted - 2010.11.28 00:53:00 - [29]
 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that attribute implan prices will increase. I have two reasons for this.

1) We're all thinking of this through the prism of the way things were. But imagine your self a new (min/max) player. If you want to train skills faster, the first thing you go is train up cybernetics (at least to 3) and buy implants for it. As a result, increased demand, primarily from new players. There is now no other way to increase training speed other than implants.

2) You can manipulate market prices upward by buying up stocks for profit and creating shortages, and since it is possible, players will do it. There isn't such a mechanism for downward prices.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.11.28 01:05:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Fleshbot
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that attribute implan prices will increase. I have two reasons for this.

1) We're all thinking of this through the prism of the way things were. But imagine your self a new (min/max) player. If you want to train skills faster, the first thing you go is train up cybernetics (at least to 3) and buy implants for it. As a result, increased demand, primarily from new players. There is now no other way to increase training speed other than implants.

2) You can manipulate market prices upward by buying up stocks for profit and creating shortages, and since it is possible, players will do it. There isn't such a mechanism for downward prices.



There are the thousands of mission runners who, seeing a price increase, will exchange LP for implants instead of other items. I think there are far more people running missions than those out there manipulating the market by buying up every excess implant hitting the market.

And as I said in earlier post, the perceived benefit of an implant is now a lot less than before, there is not such a need to have a huge boost to training speed as early on as you can get it. I think worst case scenario is people see the benefit to them and buy them but at the same rate people currently buy them at, there's certainly no reason to think people will suddenly want them MORE just because it's the only skill training increase available to them.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only