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blankseplocked Learnings are gone, long live CCP.
 
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NegativeMercy
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:06:00 - [31]
 

LONG LIVE CCP!

1.158m SP to allocate, better stats than I currently have, and everybody wins! Hopefully the EVE community will start growing now that the evil learning(pun intended) curve has shrunken significantly!

This is one small step for EVE, one giant leap for EVE kind.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:08:00 - [32]
 

Forum Guy "Anyway, I don't think anyone really loses"
Maxed out learning people with +5 implants will earn less skill points per year with the change. Longer training times is not really good.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:18:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Forum Guy "Anyway, I don't think anyone really loses"
Maxed out learning people with +5 implants will earn less skill points per year with the change. Longer training times is not really good.



Everyone is in the same boat. I'm sure CCP know how quickly they want people to progress and if they feel it's too slow they will adjust it accordingly.

Now the learning skills are gone I'd think it would be easier for CCP to control that aspect now.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:27:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/11/2010 21:30:21
Originally by: Pottsey
I liked the choice of different bloodlines meant something, a choice of benefit now or benefit later with learning. It added depth to your character and was also good from a roleplay point of view. Both the learning skill change and bloodline change has made Eve's characters more bland and boring.


I fully agree. But bloodlines should matter in other ways than being less than optimal for the two main professions in this game, it was poorly implemented because the result was that we had 90% of playerbase being a Caldari combat pilot or Minmi indy pilot.

There's so many other ways to make race and bloodline matter, but CCP chose not to. It's a pity but what we have now is better than what we had before.

Originally by: Pottsey
Forum Guy "Anyway, I don't think anyone really loses"
Maxed out learning people with +5 implants will earn less skill points per year with the change. Longer training times is not really good.


No, but we'll see about than in 4 years, that's the minimum time before you begin to have a disadvantage compared to 2772 SP/hour without reimbursement.

In the meantime EVE has become a much better place for new players and I think that's more important thing for now.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:47:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 25/11/2010 21:47:54
Jennifer Starling said " , but we'll see about than in 4 years, that's the minimum time before you begin to have a disadvantage compared to 2772 SP/hour without reimbursement."
That is not correct it is not 4 years minimum before you have a disadvantage. You can experience a disadvantage in 2011 or 2012 not as long as 4 or 8 years. You could spend all of 2011 training your new skill plan slower then today. That's a loss in less then 2 years time. What happens in 3 years time when a new skill set comes out and I want to spend all year training those skills? I am at a loss over today as the skill plan takes longer to train then today. Does the loss matter, perhaps not but it's a loss.

To copy my self from another thread. Take this Scenario. You invest the learning SP in your current skill plan a change of circumstances happen and you change skill plans. Perhaps new skills, perhaps a change of direction whatever the reason that new skill plan now earns 622,080 less skill points a year and take longer then train with the new change over the old change.
Does the loss matter, perhaps not but it's a loss or disadvantage over the what we have now.

ShadoJak
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:00:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: ShadoJak on 25/11/2010 23:01:04
Wonderful Change Coming, lots of dancing in the streets here...

and now that the door to recycling SP for unwanted skills has opened, perhaps a Mac Truck can get thru

Please Santa,

Let me recycle all those wasted SP in skills that I ran up while under the influence of Bad Ideas!

It's a zero-sum change, I did spend the time afterall at some SP/hr speed. To stop those exploits you always worry about Santa, just limit it to once a year, just like the attribute remaps.

That would make it truely awesome, imagine an advanced game where you can occaisonally correct for past errors....

Forum Guy
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:17:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Forum Guy on 25/11/2010 23:20:53
Edited by: Forum Guy on 25/11/2010 23:18:17
Edited by: Forum Guy on 25/11/2010 23:17:24
Originally by: ShadoJak
Edited by: ShadoJak on 25/11/2010 23:01:04
Wonderful Change Coming, lots of dancing in the streets here...

and now that the door to recycling SP for unwanted skills has opened, perhaps a Mac Truck can get thru

Please Santa,

Let me recycle all those wasted SP in skills that I ran up while under the influence of Bad Ideas!

It's a zero-sum change, I did spend the time afterall at some SP/hr speed. To stop those exploits you always worry about Santa, just limit it to once a year, just like the attribute remaps.

That would make it truely awesome, imagine an advanced game where you can occaisonally correct for past errors....



Nice sarcasm! Very festive too.

You are out of luck, you can't mess up character training only delay it through poor choice of skills.

Learning skills are a one off as you well know. Unless of course CCP wishes to remove skills in the future but I would think that's not very likely.

Anyway other companies do similar things when they alter aspects of the game that changes the way the game works.

Sem Nan
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:21:00 - [38]
 

Hmm, i'm curious to know why the last "news article" on the dev blog was talking about Neural Remaps. You could have held that one up, since the next article would pretty much make the "neural remap" feature non-existant.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.11.26 05:23:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 25/11/2010 21:47:54
Jennifer Starling said " , but we'll see about than in 4 years, that's the minimum time before you begin to have a disadvantage compared to 2772 SP/hour without reimbursement."
That is not correct it is not 4 years minimum before you have a disadvantage. You can experience a disadvantage in 2011 or 2012 not as long as 4 or 8 years. You could spend all of 2011 training your new skill plan slower then today. That's a loss in less then 2 years time. What happens in 3 years time when a new skill set comes out and I want to spend all year training those skills? I am at a loss over today as the skill plan takes longer to train then today. Does the loss matter, perhaps not but it's a loss.

To copy my self from another thread. Take this Scenario. You invest the learning SP in your current skill plan a change of circumstances happen and you change skill plans. Perhaps new skills, perhaps a change of direction whatever the reason that new skill plan now earns 622,080 less skill points a year and take longer then train with the new change over the old change.
Does the loss matter, perhaps not but it's a loss or disadvantage over the what we have now.



This is easily solved by not spending your 5.3 million SP as soon as you get it and waiting over the next 8 years and adding your extra SP to any new skills that come up.

This effectivly makes you argument moot until ~ 8.5 years from now.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:22:00 - [40]
 

Sader Rykane said " This is easily solved by not spending your 5.3 million SP as soon as you get it and waiting over the next 8 years and adding your extra SP to any new skills that come up.
This effectively makes you argument moot until ~ 8.5 years from now."

Then you are at a disadvantage as you are 5.4 million SP down for 8 years and training 5.4million less SP for those 8 years. If I did it your way so just before the 8 year mark I would have 10million skillpoints less than with the current system.

The main advantage of learning skills was being flexible and being able to change skill plans as circumstance's change year after year. However you look at it learning skill players are at a disadvantage with the new system. You can argue everyone has the same disadvantage but it's still a disadvantage.

Look at how many major changes Eve has had in 8 years. How many people had stopped and started different skill plans in a 1 year timefame let alone 8 years.

That is a downside to the changes but it's not a downside that really bothers me. Just one I wanted to mention.

jonansul
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:50:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/11/2010 12:57:24
Originally by: Gallians
Thank you CCP, for this awesome awesome present.

I have the nice warm feeling you get when a company truly listens.

And now, bittervet tears.

Yes the 27th Imperial Crusade vs the annoying Learning Skills has finally payed off! Wink
GREAT WORK CCP! Good you acted upon what you said during the fanfest some time ago ...

The bittervets are remarkably quiet ... I'm afraid they're ragequitting without giving me their stuff first!! Mad


Why would anyone quit cause of a forum troll?

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 09:23:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/11/2010 09:24:41
Originally by: Pottsey
The main advantage of learning skills was being flexible and being able to change skill plans as circumstance's change year after year. However you look at it learning skill players are at a disadvantage with the new system. You can argue everyone has the same disadvantage but it's still a disadvantage.

I don't really see the point you're trying to make.

EVERYONE who hasn't 5/5 in both learning skills of the skill he/she is training will train faster from 15-dec on.
ONLY those who have 5/5 in every learning skill will train slightly slower and be at a disadvantage after 8 years.

How are you less flexible and not able to change skill plans as circumstances change post-learning skilless EVE compared to now? You still have remaps and implants!

Originally by: jonansul
Why would anyone quit cause of a forum troll?

I have no idea. What do you think?

AstarothPrime
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:29:00 - [43]
 

Whaaa? I just got an alt and trained it to all learning skills...

Ok ill get those points back - but mind I remind ppl that books for those skills cost a signifficant amount of ISK (for a new player specially...)

I.

Goldman Suchs
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:56:00 - [44]
 

Quote:
The main advantage of learning skills was being flexible and being able to change skill plans as circumstance's change year after year. However you look at it learning skill players are at a disadvantage with the new system


What do you mean by changing skill plan? Do you mean neural remapping?

Are you saying that SPs will accumulate at 2772 until a remap? Or until you change the skill in training?

And why will SPs train slower if we're getting an extra 12 points to add to our skills?

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Sader Rykane said " This is easily solved by not spending your 5.3 million SP as soon as you get it and waiting over the next 8 years and adding your extra SP to any new skills that come up.
This effectively makes you argument moot until ~ 8.5 years from now."

Then you are at a disadvantage as you are 5.4 million SP down for 8 years and training 5.4million less SP for those 8 years. If I did it your way so just before the 8 year mark I would have 10million skillpoints less than with the current system.

The main advantage of learning skills was being flexible and being able to change skill plans as circumstance's change year after year. However you look at it learning skill players are at a disadvantage with the new system. You can argue everyone has the same disadvantage but it's still a disadvantage.

Look at how many major changes Eve has had in 8 years. How many people had stopped and started different skill plans in a 1 year timefame let alone 8 years.

That is a downside to the changes but it's not a downside that really bothers me. Just one I wanted to mention.



Wait... How are you at a disadvantage. You still have the 5.4 million SP to put in whatever you want, all I said was that you can CHOOSE to put it in as soon as you get it or put it in later. You are not at a "disadvantage" because when compared to the previous system there will be no EFFECTIVE SP CHANGE until over EIGHT YEARS from now.

You could put 72 SP in your skills every hour for the next 8 years. Or put all the SP in one skill as soon as you get it, or you could put in all the SP 8 years from now and you would STILL end in the SAME EXACT SPOT.

Which means, until EIGHT YEARS FROM NOW, you have actually NOTHING to complain about because you aren't losing any EFFECTIVE (read SP that actually DOES SOMETHING) until then.

You have NO ARGUMENT for at least EIGHT YEARS, stop trying to make one.

The one thing you have lost? Is SP that didn't do anything anyway.

Sylux Raynes
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:14:00 - [46]
 

Yay! I invested the entire life of this (my only) character to nothing but Learning skills because it seemed like the intelligent thing to do. I have a little over 550,000 skill points (yes, I know....that's a really small number).

500,000 of that is in Learning skills that I'll get to remap however I want and still get the attribute benefits?

I'm game.

Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:39:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Pottsey
Sader Rykane said " This is easily solved by not spending your 5.3 million SP as soon as you get it and waiting over the next 8 years and adding your extra SP to any new skills that come up.
This effectively makes you argument moot until ~ 8.5 years from now."

Then you are at a disadvantage as you are 5.4 million SP down for 8 years and training 5.4million less SP for those 8 years. If I did it your way so just before the 8 year mark I would have 10million skillpoints less than with the current system.

The main advantage of learning skills was being flexible and being able to change skill plans as circumstance's change year after year. However you look at it learning skill players are at a disadvantage with the new system. You can argue everyone has the same disadvantage but it's still a disadvantage.

Look at how many major changes Eve has had in 8 years. How many people had stopped and started different skill plans in a 1 year timefame let alone 8 years.

That is a downside to the changes but it's not a downside that really bothers me. Just one I wanted to mention.



Wait... How are you at a disadvantage. You still have the 5.4 million SP to put in whatever you want, all I said was that you can CHOOSE to put it in as soon as you get it or put it in later. You are not at a "disadvantage" because when compared to the previous system there will be no EFFECTIVE SP CHANGE until over EIGHT YEARS from now.

You could put 72 SP in your skills every hour for the next 8 years. Or put all the SP in one skill as soon as you get it, or you could put in all the SP 8 years from now and you would STILL end in the SAME EXACT SPOT.

Which means, until EIGHT YEARS FROM NOW, you have actually NOTHING to complain about because you aren't losing any EFFECTIVE (read SP that actually DOES SOMETHING) until then.

You have NO ARGUMENT for at least EIGHT YEARS, stop trying to make one.

The one thing you have lost? Is SP that didn't do anything anyway.


quoting for the truth.

1) if u have all learning lvl 5, you lose soo minisucle ammount of SP it does not even matter in the long run (8years...)
2) all the players that didnt train all 5, will benefit.. probably like 5% of eve population has all of them 5.
3) new players can start training skills that they use instead of learning skills. win

Destru Kaneda
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:47:00 - [48]
 

I'm happy to see the general consensus. Personally I don't see how anyone could not welcome this change.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:00:00 - [49]
 

Sader Rykane said “Wait... How are you at a disadvantage. You still have the 5.4 million SP to put in whatever you want, all I said was that you can CHOOSE to put it in as soon as you get it or put it in later. You are not at a "disadvantage" because when compared to the previous system there will be no EFFECTIVE SP CHANGE until over EIGHT YEARS from now.
If I change skill plans anytime over the 8 years I am at a disadvantage at the new skill plan over todays system. If I change skill plans once every year that means the year 2 and year 3 skill plans are at a disadvantage over what I have now but the year 1 plan would be at an advantage. The new change makes you less adaptable to changes.

What if I change skill plans for the summer 2011 expansion then change skill plans for the Winter 2011 expansion? What if I do the same thing for different years? Those skill plans would train slower. Once you have used up the 5.4million SP pool any changes to skill plans are at a disadvantage with the new system. What if in 4 years there is a gameplay balance again that changes skills? I would be at a disadvantage if the SP pool had been used up. Yes there is an advantage with the pool. But that advantage doesn’t mean you do not get a disadvantage as well.

Do you honestly think players will not change skill plans for 8 years?



Riho said “1) if u have all learning lvl 5, you lose soo minisucle ammount of SP it does not even matter in the long run (8years...)”
If you change skill plans a few times you could lose around about 5 million skill points in the new skill plans against what you would have had with the current system. You might not lose overall skillpoints and the old skill plan would have 5 million extra SP in, but the new skill plans would have far less skill points in them. What if T4 comes out next year and you had already used up the SP pool? Then your T4 skill will end up with millions less SP in it over the current system.
Your new skill plans can lose up to 5million SP depending on when you use the SP pool.

Niobea Aenir
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:15:00 - [50]
 

Son, I'm dissapoint.

Logical Chaos
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:39:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Destru Kaneda
I'm happy to see the general consensus. Personally I don't see how anyone could not welcome this change.


only elitist ***gots who enlarge their e-peen with their total SP count.

I mean its not like it matters if you have 100mil SP now of which 95 are combat/industry/whatever else you do related or 95mil SP soon which are combat/industry/whatever else you do related.

My Postman
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:41:00 - [52]
 

Hell, am i the only one here crying for such a terribad desicion?

This is gamechanging, and the dev blog presenting me a x-mas gift is a slap in my face.

Don´t want to elaborate further, if one wants to know more read my post in the original thread where i called them names.

Much sad panda Sad maybe emo-rage quitting.

So, here are your tears, a lot of!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:08:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Forum Guy "Anyway, I don't think anyone really loses"
Maxed out learning people with +5 implants will earn less skill points per year with the change. Longer training times is not really good.


The max of 2772SP/h was a side effect of the neural remaps 1.5 years ago. What was your learning speed before then? I'm pretty sure it was quit a lot below 2700SP/h.

I used to have a maxed out int/mem Achura doing 2739SP/h but he couldn't fly anything but a shuttle. Wink

Socio Stan
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:37:00 - [54]
 

This is probably the best thing they have ever done to improve the new player experience.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:58:00 - [55]
 

bittervet checking in for rage about this.

not.

it's an excellent move, i now get a few million sp to invest in off attribute skills.

And i've always been a big believer that player skill, attitude and tactics will out perform high skillpoint count in small gang PVP. Been doing this since my first kills on players with 4 or 5 or 20 times my skillpoint total back when i was a nubbin in a t1 fitted thorax and didn't even know that killboards existed (i wish i hadn't deleted those killmails). Now that I am higher skilled i'm just slightly more effecient with a variety of options to chose the best ship for the situation.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:47:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: My Postman
Hell, am i the only one here crying for such a terribad desicion?

This is gamechanging, and the dev blog presenting me a x-mas gift is a slap in my face.

Don´t want to elaborate further, if one wants to know more read my post in the original thread where i called them names.

Much sad panda Sad maybe emo-rage quitting.

So, here are your tears, a lot of!


If you do please don't forget to contract your stuff! <3 and thanks for the tears!

I was starting to get worried I wouldnt get any Crying or Very sad

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.11.26 19:51:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Sader Rykane said “Wait... How are you at a disadvantage. You still have the 5.4 million SP to put in whatever you want, all I said was that you can CHOOSE to put it in as soon as you get it or put it in later. You are not at a "disadvantage" because when compared to the previous system there will be no EFFECTIVE SP CHANGE until over EIGHT YEARS from now.
If I change skill plans anytime over the 8 years I am at a disadvantage at the new skill plan over todays system. If I change skill plans once every year that means the year 2 and year 3 skill plans are at a disadvantage over what I have now but the year 1 plan would be at an advantage. The new change makes you less adaptable to changes.

What if I change skill plans for the summer 2011 expansion then change skill plans for the Winter 2011 expansion? What if I do the same thing for different years? Those skill plans would train slower. Once you have used up the 5.4million SP pool any changes to skill plans are at a disadvantage with the new system. What if in 4 years there is a gameplay balance again that changes skills? I would be at a disadvantage if the SP pool had been used up. Yes there is an advantage with the pool. But that advantage doesn’t mean you do not get a disadvantage as well.

Do you honestly think players will not change skill plans for 8 years?



Riho said “1) if u have all learning lvl 5, you lose soo minisucle ammount of SP it does not even matter in the long run (8years...)”
If you change skill plans a few times you could lose around about 5 million skill points in the new skill plans against what you would have had with the current system. You might not lose overall skillpoints and the old skill plan would have 5 million extra SP in, but the new skill plans would have far less skill points in them. What if T4 comes out next year and you had already used up the SP pool? Then your T4 skill will end up with millions less SP in it over the current system.
Your new skill plans can lose up to 5million SP depending on when you use the SP pool.



If you're so worried about this, then why don't you just put the equivalent of 72 SP an hour into your skills every day until about 8 years from now. It'll be like nothing changed.

Which is my point that you seem to be constantly avoiding. You have the CHOICE to make your training do the exact same thing it did before for the next 8 years. Which means their is no effective change for a really really long time.


Pyro Ninja
Gallente
Viral Industry
Posted - 2010.11.26 20:30:00 - [58]
 

Vote HERE on the learning change Cool

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 22:01:00 - [59]
 

Sader Rykane I am not worried about it; the change has no real impact on me. I was just pointing out that due to a change in circumstance's you can end up with skill plans that end up worse after the change. Yes you can micro manage the skill plan and put the equivalent of 72 SP an hour into your skills every day until about 8 years from now. Likewise you could spend the SP pool on one skill plan then circumstance's change and the new skill plan is worse off.

I am not constantly avoiding your point. Your point is correct but it doesn't matter as it doesn't prove what I am saying as wrong. Just because some people will not end up worse off it does not mean no one will end up worse off. As I have shown it is now possible for players to end up worse off at new skill plans. That does not mean everyone will be worse off only that its now possible.

In short some player will end up better off, some players will end up exactly the same as before and some players will end up worse off at new skill plans.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.11.26 23:09:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Sader Rykane I am not worried about it; the change has no real impact on me. I was just pointing out that due to a change in circumstance's you can end up with skill plans that end up worse after the change. Yes you can micro manage the skill plan and put the equivalent of 72 SP an hour into your skills every day until about 8 years from now. Likewise you could spend the SP pool on one skill plan then circumstance's change and the new skill plan is worse off.

I am not constantly avoiding your point. Your point is correct but it doesn't matter as it doesn't prove what I am saying as wrong. Just because some people will not end up worse off it does not mean no one will end up worse off. As I have shown it is now possible for players to end up worse off at new skill plans. That does not mean everyone will be worse off only that its now possible.

In short some player will end up better off, some players will end up exactly the same as before and some players will end up worse off at new skill plans.



Great so you're writing this post to tell me the sky is blue?


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