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Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:05:00 - [1441]
 

I am disappointed in CCP’s decision. Perhaps it would have been too complicated for CCP to have given everyone the learning skills and reimbursed the sp for the players that already trained them. Looking at the bright side at least I won’t have to teach anyone the value of training learning skills again.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:12:00 - [1442]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
I wonder how it would have worked out if you were unable to train learning skills during the boost period as a new player? That way new players wouldn't be burned out by starting with boring learning skills, they would learn fun skills at a high rate and when the boost period is over they can train up the learning skills with a similar speed to older players.

Of course this is a moot point now, but still do you think that would have worked?


No. Learning skills were the problem. Leaving them in and hopeing to achieve a change is not going to work.

Csig CEO
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:17:00 - [1443]
 

SO.. you are saying if it is good business to make it more WoW like then do so? Because the level of cretins in WoW, CS, or any other easy MMO{RPG} is tremendous. So YES, lets vote!, for cretins and easier game play. Bloody why not give EvE over to Sony because we all know they did a wonderful job with games like: Star Wars Galaxies?

This comment is not in rebuttal of the learning skill just directed at the troll post of NereSky. :) Cheers.


Originally by: NereSky
Edited by: NereSky on 26/11/2010 10:07:39
Originally by: Alison Dagger
Slowpoke reporting in.

This is one of the most stupid things CCP done to cripple EVE's spirit after nano-nerf.
The game gets less and less hardcore, and more attractive to brain damaged people who would otherwise play WOW or L2.
Say hello to more ШКОЛОЛО in your EVE.Razz


CCP runs a business and if it means making the game to a more user friendly enjoyable level to new players to increase retention and attraction to the game then sobeit,

But i would reccomend to CCP finish other 'work in progress' sooner rather than later, and ofc sort out your bloody petition and bug reporting system as well your at it lol

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:19:00 - [1444]
 

First, I admit that this decision will make the most people happy as well as being as fair to as many as possible.

I still personally disagree with it.

Choosing weather or not to go learning skills was part of the game, it helped people learn to think about what they train and learn how to make their own fun rather than following a set "max effective" path. I think in the long run this will be bad for eve.

Csig CEO
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:20:00 - [1445]
 

Edited by: Csig CEO on 27/11/2010 01:22:28

*nods in agreement* don't be too sure they won't. This might be a testbed on how the community reacts to "skill removal".


Originally by: Blackhuey
Awesome. Next please remove fitting skills, and anything else that requires investment for future reward.

*headdesk*

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:31:00 - [1446]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 27/11/2010 01:33:12
Originally by: Csig CEO
SO.. you are saying if it is good business to make it more WoW like then do so? Because the level of cretins in WoW, CS, or any other easy MMO{RPG} is tremendous. So YES, lets vote!, for cretins and easier game play. Bloody why not give EvE over to Sony because we all know they did a wonderful job with games like: Star Wars Galaxies?

This comment is not in rebuttal of the learning skill just directed at the troll post of NereSky. :)


So based on this recurring logic, WoW just needs to introduce a skill, which adds +x% to the experience-gain and all of a sudden WoW become harder for the average player and tons of dumbasses leave the game? Indulge me, how do you supposed this to work?

FluorosulfonicAcid
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:34:00 - [1447]
 

What I do not get is people that have in the past gotten more SP than others by having the learning skills are ****ed their training rate goes down. Shouldn't they be happy since they have more SP than others, and now their more SP will be worth more on old characters since others can no longer train at that rate?

Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:40:00 - [1448]
 

In before Chribba!

Lliabron
Posted - 2010.11.27 01:47:00 - [1449]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 23:15:46
Originally by: Lliabron
Please stop putting your ideas (ideas there are arguments to counter) as my ideas.
You were the one who said you trained the learning skills to get a "competitive advantage" in terms of skills. I'm simply explaining to you what this advantage consists of: total SP — a completely worthless stat.

No. you are making things up. Removing or adding as it fits you. If you think you are not, please re-read what I wrote. In whole, not put out of context.

Quote:
I did not missed it. There is no re-imbursement towards injected skills. Extreme example, if somebody made the effort and bought the books last week and injected them with intention to start up-skilling them in week or two, he will have net loss of 50 Mils for advanced skillbooks with no compensation whatsoever.
He gets fully compensated. Or, rather, there is nothing to compensate: he got those skill books to improve his training speed. His training speed now improves (and does so much sooner than he actually bargained for). He comes out ahead.

No. He gets same gift/update as everyone else. Consider learning actual meaning of words before trying to argue about them.

Quote:
To put it bluntly: your complaint is not about you not being compensated — it's about how you feel it's unfair that others are getting the same pay-out without the same investment. That is something completely different to not being compensated at all. You are being compensated, and you are getting what you paid for. Others are just getting more, and that's what bothers you (because of the aforementioned meta-gaming competition).

This is all completely irrelevant (and wrong by the way). What I feel unfair of is absence of compensation (of what you lose). You will come back singing same song, that because everyone gets something they are actually compensating. It's a lie.

Quote:
No it should not, because nobody will want to play game that is randomly removing his assets.
Oh dear… go look at some of the economy presentations from the last couple of fanfests, and learn how a game economy works. Faucets and sinks are crucial to making that economy work — it will cease to function without them. And people will play a game that removes assets… after all, we are all playing EVE, and it happens constantly here.

No it does not. You by purpose completely left from consideration my statements about how eve fights inflation. I find it hard to find more appropriate word than "lie". Brainwashing maybe?

Quote:
And again: no assets were removed here without being replaced by the exact same thing.
Quote:
SP are being re-imbursed.
AP are not being re-imbursed. I will get them regardless of my learning skills. So will everyone else.
Again, just because others got a better deal does not mean that you didn't get what you paid for: higher attributes.

So they are being replaced. So only those that had them are getting them? No? Then they are not getting replaced. Stop lying please.

Quote:
Value is lost for the skillbooks.
Some tiny value is lost if you had all-V:s. In all other cases, value is actually added. And none of this value is in terms of ISK, because that conversion happened ages ago and is no longer relevant.

OK, so I'm right in my opinion that while this change is understandable and not bad thought overall it can use some more thinking. Thank you very much.
Quote:
Direct result would mean you get as much as you had. This is not the case.
Ehm Yes it is. You get exactly as much SP back as you had. Maybe that's what confusing you: you missed the part where you get 100% of your SP back.

No you just can't read obviously. Otherwise point me to one post where I stated you lose the skillpoints. Otherwise spare me convincing me I'm wrong of what I never wrote.

flyrod
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:12:00 - [1450]
 

The only thing I find annoying is the loss of all that time. Yes, the points indirectly represent training time, but that time could have been used to train other things. And right, you can apply the reimbursment points to other skills so you are assentially where you would be if you trained them instead of learning skills but you have lost all the benefits you would have gotten ingame by having those skills trained such as flying a bigger, better ship or using bigger, better equipment. I woould like to see a 20% or 25% bonus for the points in learning above level 3.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:17:00 - [1451]
 

I'm losing 72 SP per hour if:

A) I've maxed all learning
B) Min maxed my attributes
C) Are training the specific group of skills specific to that map

The other side is:

A) Maxed base skills on all the other characters that don't fit the above criteria.

And people are *****ing about this?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Mr Epeen Cool

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:17:00 - [1452]
 

We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount). We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice.
<<<

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.

Detri Mentality
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:28:00 - [1453]
 

I came up with the same idea months ago and predicted that this would be the end result. I'd like to congratulate CCP on their fine effort though my notes were all written down on toilet paper in the five minutes it took for me to come up with the same data sets while "pondering deeply the topic of sp-time-cost."

Thanks CCP! You just netted me a few months of free gameplay as all of my associate's doubted you would do as I predicted and must now use my 21-day trials to join as per our gentlemenly agreement's!

+1!

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.11.27 02:42:00 - [1454]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 27/11/2010 02:42:23
"Back in my day we walked to school in the snow, barefoot and uphill. I got frostbite seventeen times, but I loved it. It kept the wimps out of school."

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:02:00 - [1455]
 

Originally by: Sed Man

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.


Actually, its extending my advantage over them by 72 SP/hr since they introduced remaps. They'll never be able to get up to the speeds I've been training, and it artificially increases the age of my characters.

Noob.

-Liang

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:10:00 - [1456]
 

Edited by: Sed Man on 27/11/2010 03:17:02
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sed Man

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.


Actually, its extending my advantage over them by 72 SP/hr since they introduced remaps. They'll never be able to get up to the speeds I've been training, and it artificially increases the age of my characters.

Noob.

-Liang




If your toons only 9 months old and you've invested 20% of your time/SP time into learning skills, then you havent even started to recoop faster sp/hr benifets... I'd be even more annoyed if my toon was only 4 months old and I'd just finished all but the charisma learning skills.
Skilling learning skills is a choice, long term planning was rewarded with faster skilling in the future... now everyone in skilling at the same speed with the only variables being implants and remaps. implants require no thought, its based on what you can afford. Remaps require a little thought, but nothing compaired to the thought required to decide when, and to which level, to skill learning skills... always with the thought of future SP/hr ratios with teh goal being to catch up and even overtake those who choose the instant satisfaction path of skilling.
It seems that players older than about 1.5 years are happy, players who didn't learn learning skiils to lvl5 are happy, new players are happy... but, if you created your toon some time this year (a small minority) all your plans goto crap.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:14:00 - [1457]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 27/11/2010 03:20:46
Originally by: Sed Man
If your toons only 9 months old and you've invested 20% of your time/SP time into learning skills, then you havent even started to recoop faster sp/hr benifets...


Um... plainly spoken? You're wrong. You gained the benefits from the very moment on, where your first learning skill was trained to I. Since that moment, you gained more SP then someone, who didn't train it.

Originally by: Sed Man
implants require no thought, its based on what you can afford. Remaps require a little thought, but nothing compaired to the thought required to decide when and to how high to skill learning skills...


And learning skills required thought? Come on, you're desperately trying to get hold of some straw-man there to not be sweeped away by the flood. Get real dude. Or do you actually want to argue, that implants and remaps should be removed, too? Interestinly enough, both remaps and implants pose more variance and challenge then learning skills did, because you actually have to choose which attribute to drop in favour of another one and adjust your skill planning for a year or pure attribute-implants versus +2s and +3s with secondary bonuses.

Originally by: Sed Man
always with the thought of future SP/hr ratios with teh goal being to catch up and even overtake those who chose the instant satisfaction path of skilling.


Silly arguement, as was stated several times. Next to everyone had learning skills trained and those who didn't do that at some point, were idiots that are not worth beeing mentioned, because it's a simple mathematical question to use them or not, which could be even bested by something fundamental like EVEMon, not even requiring someone to think about it.

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:15:00 - [1458]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sed Man

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.


Actually, its extending my advantage over them by 72 SP/hr since they introduced remaps. They'll never be able to get up to the speeds I've been training, and it artificially increases the age of my characters.

Noob.

-Liang


I shed a tear. All this time I held your opinion in such high regard. Sad

I will stick to getting PVP advice from you none the less.





MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:17:00 - [1459]
 

Originally by: Patri Andari
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sed Man

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.


Actually, its extending my advantage over them by 72 SP/hr since they introduced remaps. They'll never be able to get up to the speeds I've been training, and it artificially increases the age of my characters.

Noob.

-Liang


I shed a tear. All this time I held your opinion in such high regard. Sad

I will stick to getting PVP advice from you none the less.







Or maybe you hold her opinion in high regard because she has a point, but your rage isn't let you see it.

just maybe.

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:21:00 - [1460]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 27/11/2010 03:19:00
Originally by: Sed Man
If your toons only 9 months old and you've invested 20% of your time/SP time into learning skills, then you havent even started to recoop faster sp/hr benifets...


Um... plainly spoken? You're wrong. You gained the benefits from the very moment on, where your first learning skill was trained to I. Since that moment, you gained more SP then someone, who didn't train it.

Originally by: Sed Man
implants require no thought, its based on what you can afford. Remaps require a little thought, but nothing compaired to the thought required to decide when and to how high to skill learning skills...


And learning skills required thought? Come on, you're desperately trying to get some room here. Get real dude. Or do you actually want to argue, that implants and remaps should be removed, too? Interestinly enough, both remaps and implants pose more variance and challenge then learning skills did, because you actually have to choose which attribute to drop in favour of another one and adjust your skill planning for a year or pure attribute-implants versus +2s and +3s with secondary bonuses.

Originally by: Sed Man
always with the thought of future SP/hr ratios with teh goal being to catch up and even overtake those who chose the instant satisfaction path of skilling.


Silly arguement, as was stated several times. Next to everyone had learning skills trained and those who didn't do that at some point, were idiots that are not worth beeing mentioned, because it's a simple mathematical question to use them or not, which could be even bested by something fundamental like EVEMon, not even requiring someone to think about it.


I understand what your saying, but there are two things being invested, patience and SP/hr. patience is not equal to instant satisfaction.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:22:00 - [1461]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 27/11/2010 03:24:39
Originally by: Sed Man
I understand what your saying, but there are two things being invested, patience and SP/hr. patience is not equal to instant satisfaction.


And now you get a reward by not only having 5/5 learning by default, but also beeing able to use the SP and time invested in those skills for something else. What do you complain about exactly?

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:23:00 - [1462]
 

Edited by: Patri Andari on 27/11/2010 03:33:48
Edited by: Patri Andari on 27/11/2010 03:27:23
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Patri Andari
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sed Man

well you have punished people for making sensible long-term decisions. people who didnt now get a free ticket to equality.


Actually, its extending my advantage over them by 72 SP/hr since they introduced remaps. They'll never be able to get up to the speeds I've been training, and it artificially increases the age of my characters.

Noob.

-Liang


I shed a tear. All this time I held your opinion in such high regard. Sad

I will stick to getting PVP advice from you none the less.







Or maybe you hold her opinion in high regard because she has a point, but your rage isn't let you see it.

just maybe.




Perhaps...me thinks....No!

I want my advantage!

In fact, I would rather 1 point in attribute over those who did bother to train 5/5 for life in lieu of a skill point return. That is a measure of how sick about this I am!

In fact yes.. Give me a choice. Either a return of my SP or a 1 point increase in each advanced attribute I trained to level 5 and I will choose the later.

Give the beggars 12 points freely and give me 13. Done deal!












Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:26:00 - [1463]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Sed Man
If your toons only 9 months old and you've invested 20% of your time/SP time into learning skills, then you havent even started to recoop faster sp/hr benifets...


Um... plainly spoken? You're wrong. You gained the benefits from the very moment on, where your first learning skill was trained to I. Since that moment, you gained more SP then someone, who didn't train it.


He's talking about return on investment, and is still wrong, because the skill points invested are being refunded.

It seems simple to me, character has made an investment, gained interest on it and is now having the principal returned in exchange for a slight lowering of future interest.

Now if you are just focusing on the interest rate (SP/hour) then I can see why you might see it dropping by 2% or 3% and think OMGNERF. Looking at the whole picture, over the long term one can see quite simply that they have profited from the transaction overall.

Ironically the key argument to keeping these skills is that they filter out those who can plan for the long term, see the big picture...

lol

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:31:00 - [1464]
 

Originally by: Sed Man
If your toons only 9 months old and you've invested 20% of your time/SP time into learning skills, then you havent even started to recoop faster sp/hr benifets...


Amusingly, you will have under the new plan. You'll come out much better off in this situation. :)

Quote:
I'd be even more annoyed if my toon was only 4 months old and I'd just finished all but the charisma learning skills.


You'd be looking at what ... 4m SP total at that point - which no matter how you slice it is still higher than any other character your age could have gotten. Congratulations on having a real and immediate SP advantage. I mean yeah, you may be upset... but only because of the recent ISK investment.

Quote:
Skilling learning skills is a choice, long term planning was rewarded with faster skilling in the future... now everyone in skilling at the same speed with the only variables being implants and remaps. implants require no thought, its based on what you can afford.


Implants require far far far far more thought and choice than learning skills. HG Crystals are +3s, and LGs are +2s. For example.

Quote:
It seems that players older than about 1.5 years are happy


Yeah, because one of the major turn offs to new players just went away.

Quote:
players who didn't learn learning skiils to lvl5 are happy


I had my learning skills that high. I'm actually being nerfed by this change. Know what? I don't care.

Quote:
new players are happy


Yeah, with good reason.

Quote:
but, if you created your toon some time this year (a small minority) all your plans goto crap.


How so? Just take your learning skill reimbursement and apply it to your skill plans. OH MY GOD, YOU'RE FARTHER ALONG THAN YOU COULD EVER HAVE BEEN!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!~?

Rolling Eyes


-Liang

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:38:00 - [1465]
 

Edited by: Sed Man on 27/11/2010 03:57:50
Edited by: Sed Man on 27/11/2010 03:51:44
Next to everyone had learning skills trained and those who didn't.

If this is true then, my arguments are moot, but from what I can gather, this isnt the case. Most of the people in game, in help channel, quoted ~2.5mill SP in learning. The sample size was about 20, 2 or 3 had maxed all learning skills. The difference between ~2.5 and 3.12mill in learning skills is significant SP/hr when you have a 3 year plan. Now everyone can potentially do the same SP/hr.

Yes, when you look at the whole situation, this decision is a good decision for the game. I still dislike the removal of the only significant set of variables in the game which enabled any chance of catching up with existing players (who stuck around 2.5mill SP in leaning).... yes it would take years to catch up, but when you have a 3 year plan, its not out of the question.
But the game needs to evolve I guess, and if that means making existing players SP advantage more entrenched, then so be it.

I decided to sacrifice flying T2 ships in the short term to skill learning skills, so in the long term skilling anything would be faster, so one day I would catch up and overtake those that chose T2 in the short term - you may be able to kill me today with your T2 skills, but in the long term, I'll be in a capital quicker than you...

In any case, the whole thread is a total waste of time. a business decision has been made, the wheels put in motion

'the train has left the station'.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.27 03:57:00 - [1466]
 

Originally by: Sed Man

If this is true then, my arguments are moot, but from what I can gather, this isnt the case. Most of the people in game, in help channel, quoted ~2.5mill SP in learning. The sample size was about 20, 2 or 3 had maxed all learning skills. The difference between ~2.5 and 3.12mill in learning skills is significant SP/hr when you have a 3 year plan.

I decided to sacrifice flying T2 ships in the short term to skill learning skills ......



Yes, and now you're further along in your 3 year plan than if you hadn't trained learning skills. Wheeeeeeee.

Quote:
yes it would take years to catch up ... its not out of the question.


Amusingly, you'd catch up just in time to find out that skillpoints don't matter that much.

-Liang

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 04:05:00 - [1467]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sed Man

If this is true then, my arguments are moot, but from what I can gather, this isnt the case. Most of the people in game, in help channel, quoted ~2.5mill SP in learning. The sample size was about 20, 2 or 3 had maxed all learning skills. The difference between ~2.5 and 3.12mill in learning skills is significant SP/hr when you have a 3 year plan.

I decided to sacrifice flying T2 ships in the short term to skill learning skills ......



Yes, and now you're further along in your 3 year plan than if you hadn't trained learning skills. Wheeeeeeee.

Quote:
yes it would take years to catch up ... its not out of the question.


Amusingly, you'd catch up just in time to find out that skillpoints don't matter that much.

-Liang


I have worked that out... teamwork in eve is far more important, but skills do help.

Captain Dreadshadow
Posted - 2010.11.27 04:05:00 - [1468]
 

CCP should just add 72 sp per hour or whatever to shut everyone up unless they have an super reason for 72 less. Doesn't really matter. as far as calculations go just have the formula then add 72 lol. not the best way but does anyone really care?

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.27 04:14:00 - [1469]
 

Originally by: Captain Dreadshadow
CCP should just add 72 sp per hour or whatever to shut everyone up unless they have an super reason for 72 less. Doesn't really matter. as far as calculations go just have the formula then add 72 lol. not the best way but does anyone really care?


Perhapse they should have given existing toons a ratio of the 12 attributes based on thier existing learning skills for the next 12 months after which time they go to the new standard. It would be a transition that wasnt just "hey, in 20 days, your gona get a free ticket for those learning skills you were not patient enougth to skill"

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.27 04:16:00 - [1470]
 

Originally by: Sed Man
Perhapse they should have given existing toons a ratio of the 12 attributes based on thier existing learning skills for the next 12 months after which time they go to the new standard. It would be a transition that wasnt just "hey, in 20 days, your gona get a free ticket for those learning skills you were not patient enougth to skill"


That'd be near braindead from every perspective.

-Liang


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