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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:30:00 - [1231]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
When did neural remaps get added to Eve?


Winter 08?

ElderFather
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:32:00 - [1232]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: ElderFather
Please clear this up for my understanding; does this ONLY apply to the "LEARNING" skillbooks/skillset (i.e. Empathy, etc.)?


Yes.

Originally by: ElderFather
Does this mean that we will still be using skillbooks for the other skills (i.e. "anchoring", etc...)?


Yes.

Thank you Ebisu Kami
But how will the implants (like "low-grade slave" alpha, beta, delta, gamma, and epsilon) that boosts the "Learning skillset" be effected?
Since u left it blank, I guess they will not be effected.
I'm a permanoob lol

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:35:00 - [1233]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Sahmul
The claim is being put forward that for max-skilled, perfect plan players, that they will be losing 72 SP/hour once this goes through. This is true. The counter argument being made is that the refund of SP will offset this for the next 8 years or so, this is in fact not true. As has been pointed out those skill points have already been earned, reallocating points that have already been earned is not the same as earning new points.

This is not quite correct. Yes, your total number of skillpoints won't change, but your total number of effective skillpoints will increase. This is because learning skills only help you learn other skills faster, they do not in any way affect your actual play of the game. The skillpoints that are refunded, on the other hand, can be put into skills that make you a more effective player.
Yes, but when instead of having 5/5 learnings you suddenly end up with 5/4 it is not a reimbursment - it's a nerf. You get your SP reimbursed from all your learning skills plus everything up to 5/4 learning will be reimbursed by increase in attributes, while 5/5 learning skills won't be backed up by attibute increase, only have SP reumbursed - that's the issue with "72sp/hour", nothing more.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:37:00 - [1234]
 

Shandir said “Don't make the wrong choice. If your circumstances are likely to change that drastically, then hold onto the SP until you're sure what you need to do with them - SP does not get any less valuable over time (at least not after this change).”
It’s impossible to predict over 8 years. Any number of game place balance can happen, new skills or just changes in circumstances like you move into wormhole space and need different skills. People change skill plans all the time. There is no way to know when it’s the best time to use the SP Pool. A few years back I used to be miner and would have maxed out the miner skills, now I never mine. You just cannot predict what’s going to happen. For all we know something might come out in the 2011 expansion that’s great and make us use the SP pool up. Then in the 2012 expansion something even better comes out only now that skill plan ends up with millions less SP in it.

The way I see it is skill plans that used the SP pool get a bonus. Skill plans that happen without the SP pool get a nerf/disadvantage over the current system. So some skill plans will be nerfed long before the 8 year mark.



Capsuleer Newton said “I do understand you point, but then, you can't really say its a nerf, everyone, and i mean every player will succumbed to this, not just the vets. lets put it in a real life perspective, 10 years ago, maybe gas was $1 a gallon, now its $2.90/gal., now is that a nerf? NO, coz everyone will have to pay $2.90 now.”
I am not following; a nerf that affects everyone is still a nerf. The big NO should be a big YES. Using the car example the people today are nerfed/at a disadvantage as they have to pay more to travel the same distance over past years.

Its certainly not as bad as everyone’s in the same boat. But I still see it as a disadvantage over the current system. Not a disadvantage I care about, but still a disadvantage.

Thanks Malcanis for the winter info.

Sirtech
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:38:00 - [1235]
 

Will we be given an extra opportunity to rebalance our attributes because of this change?

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:40:00 - [1236]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 26/11/2010 13:40:34
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Pottsey
When did neural remaps get added to Eve?


Winter 08?


i think it was about Apocrypha, so early-mid 2009

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:40:00 - [1237]
 

The 72 SP/hr isn't the issue for me (it's annoying, but meh, what I wanted was an earned competitive advantage, not any particular raw training speed.)

It's CCP giving out 5.37M SP to everyone (which is effectively what they've done.)

I didn't like it when they gave 100K to everyone and I like this 53.7 times less.

There are too many people in this game (many of whom are in this thread) who crave instant gratification. This decision will bring in even more. And CCP will clamor to satisfy them even more. And EVE won't be EVE anymore. As others have postulated, the Battleship V's of the world will be the next to go and then some idiotic CCP employee will declare skill training obsolete.

What a waste.

MWDrive
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:45:00 - [1238]
 

Originally by: Maranda Star
The 8 year thing is also bull****. That would only apply and make sense if they DOUBLED your SP return from the learning skills. There is NO SP PROFIT, and therefore nothing to make up the 72 SP/h loss.

Yes, cause we are all having SP so we can say 'I have x SP'. It doesn't really matter if SP is in something useful or not, right?

You are getting rid of 5m USELESS SP and can put them in something USEFUL. For all practical purposes your training plans will get nice leap of 5m SP (80 days of maxed training) = profit. You can apply as many economic principles as you want, fact is you are exchanging something useless for something useful and there is no way you can spin that and say you're getting nothing.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:48:00 - [1239]
 

Edited by: RaTTuS on 26/11/2010 13:48:02
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

It's CCP giving out 5.37M SP to everyone (which is effectively what they've done.)


not it isn't - it's only that if you had done 5/5 in all - including the charisma ones - most character it will be less

Tiligean
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:52:00 - [1240]
 

Edited by: Tiligean on 26/11/2010 13:58:27
Edited by: Tiligean on 26/11/2010 13:53:59
OK - 42 pages in and I can't be bothered. I read the blog (twice) and it doesn't seem crystal clear to me. I have 7 toons across 3 accouts, 6 of which have learning skills on them.

Do all 6 toons get points reimbursed then?

Edit: and I didn't like the idea of the learning skills going away, but this does seem to be the least of the possible evils, IMHO.

2nd Edit - if a corp has a stock of skillbooks (Learning, obviously) for new members, is the corp wallet getting reimbursed for the books as well?

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:53:00 - [1241]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Shandir said
Capsuleer Newton said “I do understand you point, but then, you can't really say its a nerf, everyone, and i mean every player will succumbed to this, not just the vets. lets put it in a real life perspective, 10 years ago, maybe gas was $1 a gallon, now its $2.90/gal., now is that a nerf? NO, coz everyone will have to pay $2.90 now.”
I am not following; a nerf that affects everyone is still a nerf. The big NO should be a big YES. Using the car example the people today are nerfed/at a disadvantage as they have to pay more to travel the same distance over past years.

Its certainly not as bad as everyone’s in the same boat. But I still see it as a disadvantage over the current system. Not a disadvantage I care about, but still a disadvantage.



That may be the case, but a "Nerf" to be is when only a specific aspect gets the boot while the rest stay the same, say, when CCP will decide to reduce maybe the shield resist bonus for a drake and no changes to everything else but that. one could compare, hey, before, drakes are way better than myrms in PvE. but now, they're but the same [just an example].

But with everyone gets a lower sp/hr rate, its like a tuition hike, fair matrix hike, rent hike, gas prices hike, its more like inflation that everyone have to contend with. we don't like it, yes, but its like a design structure, like reinforcing a building, or repainting a house, we may not like the color, but the wife says so...

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:55:00 - [1242]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 26/11/2010 13:55:21
Originally by: MWDrive
You are getting rid of 5m USELESS SP and can put them in something USEFUL. For all practical purposes your training plans will get nice leap of 5m SP (80 days of maxed training) = profit. You can apply as many economic principles as you want, fact is you are exchanging something useless for something useful and there is no way you can spin that and say you're getting nothing.
They not usless - they give attribute bonus. CCP decides to give attribute bonus for everyone so compensates SP spent on those skills.

Basicly, you'll train almost as if you'd have 5/4 skills now (a little slower, but it's even less noticable than 72 sp/hour). So everything that's below 5/5 is reimbursed by SP and attribute bonus, while what's left only by SP.

Palionas
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:58:00 - [1243]
 

Originally by: Don Chelli
A silly decision to remove the learning skills.
It is a hard decision to go for learning skills and not for (as you call it) useful skills. But this is a thing that makes eve so attractive.
CCP is acting with this like most politicians in the world: They know many people will agree. Of course! They get additional skill attributes for nothing. Their decision to go for useful skills is getting rewarded.
Like in politics people who think learning is necessary get punished. Why think about those who REALLY took a lot of time to get the lvl. 5 in presence for one crummy charisma point more? It's not rewarded now but after a few years of playing eve the bonus will be big. And that's a cool concept of this game. It's not only for the fast and furious, but also for those who want to take 'epic arc' decisions.

So, CCP guys and gals, my petition: Don't listen to the big mass of the attribute gainers, but listen to your heart and leave the learning skills in the game. Re-think it and don't destroy a cute feature of the game. Now this error can be stopped easily.

Best regards
Don Chelli (with 5.376.000 useful learning skill points)






I totally agree with you !!!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:59:00 - [1244]
 

Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 26/11/2010 13:40:34
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Pottsey
When did neural remaps get added to Eve?


Winter 08?


i think it was about Apocrypha, so early-mid 2009

It was indeed in Apocrypha so March 10th 2009.

Driden Fas
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:02:00 - [1245]
 

will CCP be refunding skill points for part trained skills or only those skills that have been fully trained. For example would it be worth me training a learning skill i have a higher speed for now if that training would not finish until after 14th dec? would i get the skill points i had trained in that skill back even though the skill hadn't finished training?

Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:05:00 - [1246]
 

Originally by: Driden Fas
will CCP be refunding skill points for part trained skills or only those skills that have been fully trained. For example would it be worth me training a learning skill i have a higher speed for now if that training would not finish until after 14th dec? would i get the skill points i had trained in that skill back even though the skill hadn't finished training?


They'll be refunding total sp's, not skill levels, so yes.

If you're high per/will remapped like me then join the SHC Clarity V training crew today!


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:05:00 - [1247]
 

Originally by: ElderFather

But how will the implants (like "low-grade slave" alpha, beta, delta, gamma, and epsilon) that boosts the "Learning skillset" be effected?


Those implants are not affected at all. If you have all +5 implants, then they'll all just stay in effect as before (so as to form 15 + 12 + 5 = max 32 attribute).

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:07:00 - [1248]
 

Originally by: Maranda Star
The 8 year thing is also bull****. That would only apply and make sense if they DOUBLED your SP return from the learning skills. There is NO SP PROFIT, and therefore nothing to make up the 72 SP/h loss.

You are probably new here but up until March 2009 the max speed you could reach in game was if you had an Achura scientist doing int/mem at 2739SP/h. That also ment per/wil skills on those chars were done at a laughable rate. A typical balanced Achura would do 2200-2400SP/h with max skills and implants before the neural remaps were introduced.

And before the Achura became FOTM in 2006 you could be happy if you could get a decently balanced char to reach 2200-2300SP/h.

So to everyone whinging about the 72SP/h speed drop, HTFU.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:08:00 - [1249]
 

Edited by: Billy Kidd on 26/11/2010 14:23:43
Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Sahmul
The claim is being put forward that for max-skilled, perfect plan players, that they will be losing 72 SP/hour once this goes through. This is true. The counter argument being made is that the refund of SP will offset this for the next 8 years or so, this is in fact not true. As has been pointed out those skill points have already been earned, reallocating points that have already been earned is not the same as earning new points.

This is not quite correct. Yes, your total number of skillpoints won't change, but your total number of effective skillpoints will increase. This is because learning skills only help you learn other skills faster, they do not in any way affect your actual play of the game. The skillpoints that are refunded, on the other hand, can be put into skills that make you a more effective player.
Yes, but when instead of having 5/5 learnings you suddenly end up with 5/4 it is not a reimbursment - it's a nerf. You get your SP reimbursed from all your learning skills plus everything up to 5/4 learning will be reimbursed by increase in attributes, while 5/5 learning skills won't be backed up by attibute increase, only have SP reumbursed - that's the issue with "72sp/hour", nothing more.


This seems to be the sticking point:

Max attribute with advanced learning skill 5: 33
Max attribute with advanced learning skill 4: 31.9
Max attribute after removal of learning skills: 32

Maybe this could be fixed by giving everyone 10 attribute points to each attribute, then a 10% bonus after skills and implants. This means that people with extreme attribute allocations would not be penalized at all for training their advanced learning skills to 5.

Brunaburh
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:11:00 - [1250]
 

Edited by: Brunaburh on 26/11/2010 14:16:35
Originally by: Patri Andari
Here is where so many of you beggars are missing the point. Learning skills are not like any other skills in the game. They are (as far as i can tell) the ONLY skills that act as a purely strategic investment.


Try Jury Rigging

Who trains that past 3 for basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:14:00 - [1251]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 14:17:32
Originally by: ElderFather
But how will the implants (like "low-grade slave" alpha, beta, delta, gamma, and epsilon) that boosts the "Learning skillset" be effected?
Since u left it blank, I guess they will not be effected.


Exactly. They'll add what they add today, too.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:16:00 - [1252]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 14:25:05
Originally by: Sirtech
Will we be given an extra opportunity to rebalance our attributes because of this change?


Nope. You weren't able to remap the points you gained by learning skills before their removal and you will not be able to remap the points after the removal. They'll be added to your base points.

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
The 72 SP/hr isn't the issue for me (it's annoying, but meh, what I wanted was an earned competitive advantage, not any particular raw training speed.)

It's CCP giving out 5.37M SP to everyone (which is effectively what they've done.)

I didn't like it when they gave 100K to everyone and I like this 53.7 times less.

There are too many people in this game (many of whom are in this thread) who crave instant gratification. This decision will bring in even more. And CCP will clamor to satisfy them even more. And EVE won't be EVE anymore. As others have postulated, the Battleship V's of the world will be the next to go and then some idiotic CCP employee will declare skill training obsolete.

What a waste.


So in essence... what? EVE is dying? Yadda yadda yadda.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:16:00 - [1253]
 

Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari
Here is where so many of you beggars are missing the point. Learning skills are not like any other skills in the game. They are (as far as i can tell) the ONLY skills that act as a purely strategic investment.


Try Jury Rigging

Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...

Try building subsystems without that skill at 5... Wink

Syndicatecyborg
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:17:00 - [1254]
 

It is sad we had to yield to a bunch of players who where
a - to stupid to see the benefits of full learning skills
b - to lazy to do it them selfs
c - jealous of people who did do the effort

And yes this is jealousy, why else would we not have the free choise between keeping
the skills and cashing them in for raw sp. Cause the ones that dont have the skill do
want the extra learning speed. Dont want to do the work but whine about not having the
benefits. This is a sad moment for hard working, clear thinking players who do efforts
and have long therm vision...

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:19:00 - [1255]
 

Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari
Here is where so many of you beggars are missing the point. Learning skills are not like any other skills in the game. They are (as far as i can tell) the ONLY skills that act as a purely strategic investment.


Try Jury Rigging

Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...


Why would you say such a thing? I trained it to Lv IV; and it's very useful; I can rig T2 Capacitor Control Circuits and such with it (in fact, I trained all rigging skills to Lv IV, so I can rig any and all rigs. And, as Caldari, I trained Shield Rigging to Lv V).

Brunaburh
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:19:00 - [1256]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari
Here is where so many of you beggars are missing the point. Learning skills are not like any other skills in the game. They are (as far as i can tell) the ONLY skills that act as a purely strategic investment.


Try Jury Rigging

Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...

Try building subsystems without that skill at 5... Wink


So for the rare breed of T3 manufacturing, you train a skill that has two useful levels: III and V. I think you make my point even sharper - thanks!

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:21:00 - [1257]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 14:22:12
Originally by: Tiligean
OK - 42 pages in and I can't be bothered. I read the blog (twice) and it doesn't seem crystal clear to me. I have 7 toons across 3 accouts, 6 of which have learning skills on them.

Do all 6 toons get points reimbursed then?


Of course. If a toon has any SP in learning skills, this toon will get them reimbursed.

Originally by: Tiligean
2nd Edit - if a corp has a stock of skillbooks (Learning, obviously) for new members, is the corp wallet getting reimbursed for the books as well?


Yes. I think this was mentioned in the blog even.

Originally by: Driden Fas
will CCP be refunding skill points for part trained skills or only those skills that have been fully trained. For example would it be worth me training a learning skill i have a higher speed for now if that training would not finish until after 14th dec? would i get the skill points i had trained in that skill back even though the skill hadn't finished training?


Yes.

Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:22:00 - [1258]
 

Originally by: Marmios
Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir
So you remove learning skills, which there nice and added flavour. What's next? Will you introduce instances and battlegrounds? Free faction battleships(officer fitted, of course) to the newbies? Max skill point to every character?


You mad because newer players wont be forced to train 3 months of worthless time and you had to? Learning skills added depth? wtf are you smoking ? Why dont you idiot just shut up?


Three (3) months? I have an Alt for which the only Learning Skills trained are Analytical Mind III, Empathy IV, and Learning II. At present, as I write this, with no implants it would take that Alt till March 28,2011 to train all Learning Skills to Level V. That is ~four (4) months of additional training to get all Learning to V. So, I think we can safely assume it would take 4+ months starting fresh, without the newbie bonuses recently implemented, that we older players spent getting all Learning Skills to V.

Am I wrong?

Symlin

Brunaburh
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:22:00 - [1259]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari
...Jury Rigging

Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...


Why would you say such a thing? I trained it to Lv IV; and it's very useful; I can rig T2 Capacitor Control Circuits and such with it (in fact, I trained all rigging skills to Lv IV, so I can rig any and all rigs. And, as Caldari, I trained Shield Rigging to Lv V).


Sure the individual rigging skills you need IV (and can sometimes justify V) - but Jury Rigging has two hot points (as clarified above) LIII (you can now fit a rig) and LV (you can now build a subsystem). Hate to tell you if you trained Jury Rigging past III (and you don't build T3 subsystems) you wasted all those SP. WTF is that...

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.26 14:24:00 - [1260]
 

Originally by: Billy Kidd
Maybe this could be fixed by giving everyone 10 attribute points to each attribute, then a 10% bonus after skills and implants. This means that people with extreme attribute allocations would not be penalized at all for training their advanced learning skills to 5.
I suppose, or 12.8 bonus would do the trick if my math is right... or leaving "learning" skill itself - it's tier 1 anyway.

Other than that - change is great for future newbs (those who are left now without learning skillbooks and new attribute bonus are kinda screwed)... only thing that consernes me in all this is possible lag.


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