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Rick Rothsar
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:32:00 - [1201]
 

itt a lot of people getting trolled by Ranka Mei

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:32:00 - [1202]
 

Originally by: Maranda Star
If you are complaining about this being for the "Instant Gratification Newbs" then in the same breath, ***** about the 72 SP/h nerf, you are being a hypocrite.

The ONLY valid argument is that there is a 72 SP/h nerf, and if you were all REALLY butt hurt about it, you should ask for a 10% decrease in ALL SP required of every skill (but that would also pander to the "Instant Gratification Newbs").

The 8 year thing is also bull****. That would only apply and make sense if they DOUBLED your SP return from the learning skills. There is NO SP PROFIT, and therefore nothing to make up the 72 SP/h loss.

Again the only leg anyone has to stand on is that people with perfect learning skills will not be getting 2772 SP/h .Every other argument is invalid.



in an ideal situation, yes, i fully agree, but are we sure that all these whiners for the 72 sp/hr nerf are really training at this rate ALL the time since after they maxed the learning skills? you want me to believe that after they maxed out learning, they acquire 24,299,352 [2772 X 24 X 365.25] skill points per year? or they average way over 23,668,200 [2700 x 24 x 365.25 days] skill points per year? [figured since you cared about the 72 sp/hr, you'd also compute leap year, hehe.] Just Stop kidding yourselves, no, "aww, i missed this skill, sigh, oh well.."?

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:34:00 - [1203]
 

Originally by: Rick Rothsar
itt a lot of people getting trolled by Ranka Mei


So unlike your own valuable contributions, right? LOL. If you have an argument, just bring it. Else... shoo!

Lexang
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:35:00 - [1204]
 

Quote:
We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice.


So this means you will let me change my race/bloodline? Since I only chose Achura for the attributes (low charisma), and then you added in remaps making it meaningless.

ElderFather
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:37:00 - [1205]
 

Please clear this up for my understanding; does this ONLY apply to the "LEARNING" skillbooks/skillset (i.e. Empathy, etc.)?
Does this mean that we will still be using skillbooks for the other skills (i.e. "anchoring", etc...)?

If all of the skillbooks are being eliminated then how will skills be trained?
I'm guessing that only the "LEARNING" skillset will be eliminated, but
I'm confused as to what I should do in preparation to this December 14 skill training patch (How will it effect the "Slave" inplants that boost learning and ship skills?).Rolling Eyes

Ish Maril
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:38:00 - [1206]
 

Originally by: Vantlor
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !

Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)

I am crying right now.


mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :)

ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **[email protected](


Thanks Vantlor, but it feels kinda like begging for money, i will work it out myself, tough luck, but hey, thats the game.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:42:00 - [1207]
 

Originally by: Capsuleer Newton

in an ideal situation, yes, i fully agree, but are we sure that all these whiners for the 72 sp/hr nerf are really training at this rate ALL the time since after they maxed the learning skills? you want me to believe that after they maxed out learning, they acquire 24,299,352 [2772 X 24 X 365.25] skill points per year?


In my case, actually, yes. I had been training int + mem skills so far, and just finished all engineering, rigging and electronics skills I was ever going to need for the next foreseeable future.. And I accordingly just did a remap towards perc + willpower. So, indeed, my EVEMON two-year plan existed almost entirely on training missile and ship skills at 2772 sp/h (with the small exception for Warfare Link Specialist IV).

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:42:00 - [1208]
 

Originally by: Ish Maril
Originally by: Vantlor
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !

Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)

I am crying right now.


mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :)

ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **[email protected](


Thanks Vantlor, but it feels kinda like begging for money, i will work it out myself, tough luck, but hey, thats the game.


keep it, if you haven't injected the skills, the books will be reimbursed @ NPC prices. that means, you'll get your 4.5 mil back per advance learning skill book.

Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:44:00 - [1209]
 

Originally by: Ish Maril
Originally by: Vantlor
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !

Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)

I am crying right now.


mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :)

ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **[email protected](


Thanks Vantlor, but it feels kinda like begging for money, i will work it out myself, tough luck, but hey, thats the game.


And that right there is an example of a noob who's 10x more of a 'proper' eve player than all you whiners will ever be. He's actually lost out. You 5/5 crybabies lose 74sp/hr in about 8 years. Oh woe is you.. Wink

Send him the isk anyway Vant, and if I remember to do it when I get home from work, so will I.

PS: TomB in the house?! I thought you were dead...

Ish Maril
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:44:00 - [1210]
 

Originally by: Capsuleer Newton


keep it, if you haven't injected the skills, the books will be reimbursed @ NPC prices. that means, you'll get your 4.5 mil back per advance learning skill book.


Yeah, i read that, but it is too late for me Laughing

Karin Harada
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:45:00 - [1211]
 

Originally by: Comander Brenni
Why do you think removing diversety from the game is improving it?


It's a red herring that the Learning skills promoted diversity. The thread here seems to debunk that myth. In theory land, you have the choice. In the real world, everyone trains them because the real world punishes those who do not severely.

When you have a range of choices and one of them is objectively superior to the others, there is a vast skew in favour of that particular choice. It does not promote diversity, it promotes homogeneity. In the game of "play EVE to win", you don't have a real choice about whether to train learning. It's Hobson's choice - train learning or go home.

It used to be the case that the Falcon was so superior to the other recon ships in the game from the PvP perspective that it would be laughable to use any of the others. So Falcon got nerfed. The Learning group is the Falcon of the EVE skills world; and it's just gotten the biggest nerf of all; and deservedly.

Don Chelli
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:45:00 - [1212]
 

A silly decision to remove the learning skills.
It is a hard decision to go for learning skills and not for (as you call it) useful skills. But this is a thing that makes eve so attractive.
CCP is acting with this like most politicians in the world: They know many people will agree. Of course! They get additional skill attributes for nothing. Their decision to go for useful skills is getting rewarded.
Like in politics people who think learning is necessary get punished. Why think about those who REALLY took a lot of time to get the lvl. 5 in presence for one crummy charisma point more? It's not rewarded now but after a few years of playing eve the bonus will be big. And that's a cool concept of this game. It's not only for the fast and furious, but also for those who want to take 'epic arc' decisions.

So, CCP guys and gals, my petition: Don't listen to the big mass of the attribute gainers, but listen to your heart and leave the learning skills in the game. Re-think it and don't destroy a cute feature of the game. Now this error can be stopped easily.

Best regards
Don Chelli (with 5.376.000 useful learning skill points)



WishBlade
Caldari
Atomic Heroes
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:52:00 - [1213]
 

Silly idea, but would it be a possibility to transfer the reimbursed SP to another char on the same account?

yogi caldet
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:55:00 - [1214]
 

Edited by: yogi caldet on 26/11/2010 13:00:04
dear ccp....eve is getting crowded, pls give us another galaxy to play in



agree 100% with Don Chelli

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:57:00 - [1215]
 

Originally by: ElderFather
Please clear this up for my understanding; does this ONLY apply to the "LEARNING" skillbooks/skillset (i.e. Empathy, etc.)?


Yes.

Originally by: ElderFather
Does this mean that we will still be using skillbooks for the other skills (i.e. "anchoring", etc...)?


Yes.

Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
Mostly Clueless
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:59:00 - [1216]
 

Originally by: WishBlade
Silly idea, but would it be a possibility to transfer the reimbursed SP to another char on the same account?


sure, the devs are going to open the floodgates to instaboosted alt creation through SP transfer.... Rolling Eyes

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:01:00 - [1217]
 

Also, I wonder, how long we can keep the reimbursed sp for? I'd be inclined to apply it directly towards the big stuff (for me, that is), like Cruise Missile Specialization V and such. But it may be better to hold on to the sp for when I got a long skill for which I can't train superfast. So, could I keep it in the bank, so to speak, for like a half year or so?

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:03:00 - [1218]
 

Originally by: anthonieak
This means that there come a lot of new eveplayers. Can take tranquility also this storm of players on or are we coping with the lag we had 2 years ago again?

Well, I think massive subscriber increases comes under the category of "Problems CCP would like to have..."

Originally by: Sahmul
The claim is being put forward that for max-skilled, perfect plan players, that they will be losing 72 SP/hour once this goes through. This is true. The counter argument being made is that the refund of SP will offset this for the next 8 years or so, this is in fact not true. As has been pointed out those skill points have already been earned, reallocating points that have already been earned is not the same as earning new points.

This is not quite correct. Yes, your total number of skillpoints won't change, but your total number of effective skillpoints will increase. This is because learning skills only help you learn other skills faster, they do not in any way affect your actual play of the game. The skillpoints that are refunded, on the other hand, can be put into skills that make you a more effective player.

The real valid argument against this change is that those players who have trained learning skills to a high level -- who have made the long-term investment -- will no longer have a long-term, continuing edge over the more impatient players. I can appreciate this argument, because I am one of these players.

The counter-argument that should also appeal to long-term focused players is that we also have an interest in the long-term health of the game itself, and removing barriers to noob-retention (which is really why this is being done) helps that goal (more noobs = more paying accounts = more resources to improve the game (after building an underground lair for Hilmar, of course)). Paradoxically, one way to do this is to give up a bit of our long-term edge.

The silver-lining for long-term focused players is that we will have more SP to employ in training arbitrage (using SP trained at high SP/hr rates on skills that would normally train at lower rates). I expect that most thoughtful long-term players will squeeze out every last drop of benefit from that edge -- they will resist the temptation to "splurge" and quickly spend the points.

That is one reason why the original CSM proposal on Learning skills recommended both providing an extra remap and also tweaking remaps so you could make a slightly more extreme allocation (resulting in 2760 max training rate) -- it would provide thoughtful players with the maximum amount of flexibility to optimize their use of the refunded points.


Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:03:00 - [1219]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Capsuleer Newton

in an ideal situation, yes, i fully agree, but are we sure that all these whiners for the 72 sp/hr nerf are really training at this rate ALL the time since after they maxed the learning skills? you want me to believe that after they maxed out learning, they acquire 24,299,352 [2772 X 24 X 365.25] skill points per year?


In my case, actually, yes. I had been training int + mem skills so far, and just finished all engineering, rigging and electronics skills I was ever going to need for the next foreseeable future.. And I accordingly just did a remap towards perc + willpower. So, indeed, my EVEMON two-year plan existed almost entirely on training missile and ship skills at 2772 sp/h (with the small exception for Warfare Link Specialist IV).


So, training for ships but no Marauders, no jump freighters, no command ships, nor any T2 cruiser/frig hulls, maybe training for a carrier/super carrier/ titan? good for you then, and sorry for your 72 sp/hr loss if that's ever the case. :))

Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
Mostly Clueless
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:04:00 - [1220]
 

the reinbursed SP stay in your chars' "SP bank"until you use them.

unless you bin the char they will be available until you've used them all up.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:06:00 - [1221]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Also, I wonder, how long we can keep the reimbursed sp for? I'd be inclined to apply it directly towards the big stuff (for me, that is), like Cruise Missile Specialization V and such. But it may be better to hold on to the sp for when I got a long skill for which I can't train superfast. So, could I keep it in the bank, so to speak, for like a half year or so?


Afaik they'll remain there indefinitely.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:13:00 - [1222]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 26/11/2010 13:14:31
Mike deVoid said ďI'll make it easy for you to understand. You drop 72sp/hr, however you get a gift (reimbursement) of 5,376,000 SP (assuming you have 5/5 learning). This means it will be 8.5 years before you are at a net loss.
To put it another way, if you spent your reimbursement of 5,376,000 SP at the rate of 72 sp/hr to keep your training rate at the same level it would last you 8.5 years.
So you won't actually feel your nerf for 8.5 years.Ē

I have already proven that wrong more than once.

Look at it this way. You spend 5mill SP pool on your current plan. Your circumstanceís change and you change skill plan(s). Those new skill plans will end up with 5 million less SP in them after 8 years then what the current system would have. Thatís a nerf in the new skill plans in year 1 yet alone by year 8. That nerf has turned into a 5mill loss in SP for the new skill plans but a bonues for the skill plan that got the SP pool. So its a bonues and a nerf.

It might not matter in some ways and is not a reason to stop the changes. But itís not 8 years till you get a nerf. Effectively the old skill plan that gets the SP pool gets a bonus. All new skill plans that happen after the pool get used up end up with a nerf. What if T4 comes out in 2 years and I used the SP pool in my first year SP plan? Then the T4 skill plan that is 3 years long would end up with over 1 million less SP in it over the current system. All before the 8 year point. Slower training means itís harder to adapt to changes and new skill plans.

Now this isnít really a major problem but it is a disadvantage or nerf for changing skill plans.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:14:00 - [1223]
 

The boost long term players are asking for in exchange for their patience and dedication is that these points aren't attached to attributes. A player can allocate them against skills that they are not mapped for - almost all the long term players (and many of the shorter term players) will be doing this.
Skills they no doubt trained at higher speed than average will be reallocated to skills they don't want to remap for (probably charisma-based)
This is the bone you're being thrown in addition to getting effectively 6m free skillpoints. If you consider the rate at which you'd train those cross-attribute skills, it will outweigh the 70-whatever SP/h you're losing on optimal remaps (only).

You're getting 6m free skillpoints (yes, they are free) just like everyone else will in effect be getting (all the newbies getting 6m SP worth of effect) AND you're getting to use points trained at medium-high speed for skills you would otherwise train at medium-slow speed.

Unless you've already trained every possible skill that you're not mapped for.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:14:00 - [1224]
 

Originally by: Donovans
Hello.

I must say I have very mixed feelings about this whole " learning skills getting axed " issue.
Of course I resent losing some skill points per hour under ideal circumstances:
I trained those skills for an everlasting bonus and now I am the only one having to sacrifice however little of my sp/hour for the benefit of others.
Amazing.

What really irritates me is the mockery and irony that I think permeate this blog of yours.
You rejoice because I lost my sp/hour advantage over folks who didn't see fit to train those same skills.
You cheer because you lower my sp/hour rate on top of that.
You give those same folks the chance to ridicule me and my playstyle on the forums.
You even have the brazen gall to call that a " present ".
And to top it off you inform me that this is only about half of what I'll be getting.

Hey, I'm really amazed for your gifts.

Question




lol +1

Ironically, my only toon who will benefit is my 80M SP toon from the character bazaar, whose previous owner not only didn't max out learning skills, but also chose the brilliant omni-remap. All 4 of my sub-2-year-old toons were happily training at 2772, and happily gaining a few million SP per year on the MANY bozos who apparently didn't see learning as a no-brainer at all. Learning skills are awesome. This decision stinks. CCP is lost. That is all.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:17:00 - [1225]
 

Originally by: Shandir
The boost long term players are asking for in exchange for their patience and dedication is that these points aren't attached to attributes. A player can allocate them against skills that they are not mapped for - almost all the long term players (and many of the shorter term players) will be doing this.
Skills they no doubt trained at higher speed than average will be reallocated to skills they don't want to remap for (probably charisma-based)
This is the bone you're being thrown in addition to getting effectively 6m free skillpoints. If you consider the rate at which you'd train those cross-attribute skills, it will outweigh the 70-whatever SP/h you're losing on optimal remaps (only).

You're getting 6m free skillpoints (yes, they are free) just like everyone else will in effect be getting (all the newbies getting 6m SP worth of effect) AND you're getting to use points trained at medium-high speed for skills you would otherwise train at medium-slow speed.

Unless you've already trained every possible skill that you're not mapped for.


Jesus Christ, someone gets it.

Anyone who can't see that this is a massive real boost to older players should close their browser, pick up the phone and sign up for nightschool classes on basic maths.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:18:00 - [1226]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Look at it this way. You spend 5mill SP pool on your current plan. Your circumstanceís change and you change skill plan(s). Those new skill plans will end up with 5 million less SP in them after 8 years then what the current system would have. Thatís a nerf in the new skill plans in year 1 yet alone by year 8. That nerf has turned into a 5mill loss in SP for the new skill plans but a bonues for the skill plan that got the SP pool. So its a bonues and a nerf.


So if you make the wrong choice, then this is a nerf.
I think I know how to avoid this.

Don't make the wrong choice. If your circumstances are likely to change that drastically, then hold onto the SP until you're sure what you need to do with them - SP does not get any less valuable over time (at least not after this change).

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:20:00 - [1227]
 

When did neural remaps get added to Eve?

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:21:00 - [1228]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Jesus Christ, someone gets it.

Anyone who can't see that this is a massive real boost to older players should close their browser, pick up the phone and sign up for nightschool classes on basic maths.

Anyone who has not at least did the maths to see if they should be training learning skills *right now* is failing.

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:23:00 - [1229]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 26/11/2010 13:14:31
Mike deVoid said ďI'll make it easy for you to understand. You drop 72sp/hr, however you get a gift (reimbursement) of 5,376,000 SP (assuming you have 5/5 learning). This means it will be 8.5 years before you are at a net loss.
To put it another way, if you spent your reimbursement of 5,376,000 SP at the rate of 72 sp/hr to keep your training rate at the same level it would last you 8.5 years.
So you won't actually feel your nerf for 8.5 years.Ē

I have already proven that wrong more than once.

Look at it this way. You spend 5mill SP pool on your current plan. Your circumstanceís change and you change skill plan(s). Those new skill plans will end up with 5 million less SP in them after 8 years then what the current system would have. Thatís a nerf in the new skill plans in year 1 yet alone by year 8. That nerf has turned into a 5mill loss in SP for the new skill plans but a bonues for the skill plan that got the SP pool. So its a bonues and a nerf.

It might not matter in some ways and is not a reason to stop the changes. But itís not 8 years till you get a nerf. Effectively the old skill plan that gets the SP pool gets a bonus. All new skill plans that happen after the pool get used up end up with a nerf. What if T4 comes out in 2 years and I used the SP pool in my first year SP plan? Then the T4 skill plan that is 3 years long would end up with over 1 million less SP in it over the current system. All before the 8 year point. Slower training means itís harder to adapt to changes and new skill plans.

Now this isnít really a major problem but it is a disadvantage or nerf for changing skill plans.



I do understand you point, but then, you can't really say its a nerf, everyone, and i mean every player will succumbed to this, not just the vets. lets put it in a real life perspective, 10 years ago, maybe gas was $1 a gallon, now its $2.90/gal., now is that a nerf? NO, coz everyone will have to pay $2.90 now. You all are so fond of the 2772 sp/hr; but hey, why not petition CCP altogether to make it a bit faster, FOR EVERYONE, like perhaps, 2800 sp/hr? 3000 sp/hr?

Your contention is the sp/hr lost, that means its irrelevant to abolishing the learning skills altogether, coz you just want the existing sp/hr rate that you're used to. :))

Vantlor
Gallente
Scrap Iron Flotilla
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:30:00 - [1230]
 

Originally by: Damien Smith
Originally by: Ish Maril
Originally by: Vantlor
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !

Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)

I am crying right now.


mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :)

ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **[email protected](


Thanks Vantlor, but it feels kinda like begging for money, i will work it out myself, tough luck, but hey, thats the game.


And that right there is an example of a noob who's 10x more of a 'proper' eve player than all you whiners will ever be. He's actually lost out. You 5/5 crybabies lose 74sp/hr in about 8 years. Oh woe is you.. Wink

Send him the isk anyway Vant, and if I remember to do it when I get home from work, so will I.

PS: TomB in the house?! I thought you were dead...


Totaly agree about the 10x part; hopefully we can get enough people to send some ISK to give this guy a nice early game boost!
I never planned to take no for an answer :) ISK on its was soon as I get a chance to login after work!


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