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sirmcannon
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:54:00 - [1111]
 

only real problem is that, from today till dec 14 new players are screwed. I was gonna start an alt and theres no learning skills available, whats gonna happen then?

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:57:00 - [1112]
 

ccp are never gona read all this...

NereSky
Gallente
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:59:00 - [1113]
 

So question i have is - all 11 of my learning skills are max'd at level 5 - do i get 'all' of these pts back to redistribute?Question and what about some recompense for frustration i had in training them all to level 5

Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:59:00 - [1114]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 07:49:15
I've 85 mil sp. 5.4 mil is a cup in the bucket. I'm gettin hit with the nerf bat on all my future training, after taking a significantly longer time to train that 5.4 mil sp then it will take players now. It's not cool when you change the rules mid game. That's why I'm annoyed.

And yes it's a nerf. I will train slower afterward then I do now. Do the math on the soon to be removed 10% bonus.


Even if it were a nerf to you, it's a buff to others. Kinda like if you primarily play race X's ships, and they get a hard nerf to their weapons systems.

My fascination with people's objections to this is that it seems some uber hardcore leet capsuleers need to HTFU.

The irony juice runs thick and sweet from this thread.

Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:01:00 - [1115]
 

Originally by: sirmcannon
only real problem is that, from today till dec 14 new players are screwed. I was gonna start an alt and theres no learning skills available, whats gonna happen then?


Step one would be to not start a new alt until the changes happen. Step two would be to, well, win.

Aba D'houk
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:02:00 - [1116]
 

But think of all the new people in drakes that does not know how to fly a drake! It will be a killfestbonanza Twisted Evil

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:06:00 - [1117]
 

I've noticed a common trend among the whiners--they seem to focus more on SP as an arbitrary number than on what skills do for you.

I've gained the benefit of virtually maxed learning skills (except the last point in charisma) for at least two years now. I will now continue getting that benefit, plus, I'll get those skillpoints I invested years ago back to allocate to other areas.

My skillpoints may not increase, but I'll get 4.7 million skillpoints that were just sitting there not doing anything except letting me train faster and I'll get to put them into skills that actually do something plus I'll still keep the faster training. That is an effective increase in SP.

It boggles my mind how people find a way to complain about anything. CCP could give every subscriber $100 for free and people would complain. I'm not even exaggerating--I'm convinced that there would be complaints if that actually happened: "why wasn't it $200? I deserve more than $100" "I didn't get the $100 because my account had lapsed! No one told me I needed to resubscribe to get the money!" "CCP is trying to bribe us to play! CCP is bad!" "CCP is dumbing down the game by giving away free money!", "They should have spent that money on fixing lag!", etc.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:08:00 - [1118]
 

Originally by: NereSky
So question i have is - all 11 of my learning skills are max'd at level 5 - do i get 'all' of these pts back to redistribute?Question and what about some recompense for frustration i had in training them all to level 5
You get all of them back, yes, but that is all you get.
Your frustration is recompensed by the knowledge that newer generations will not have to suffer through the same thing, thus making the world a better place for all.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:10:00 - [1119]
 

Originally by: Odnam Moc
Even if it were a nerf to you, it's a buff to others.
I'm hearing "I like rock, scissors is fine, but you need to nerf paper."

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:11:00 - [1120]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Xodarapmis
*snip*

We did anticipate that there'd be a small group of people who'd be in this position and have this reaction. We'd liked to have made this change more intuitively beneficial for people in your position, but it's one of the things that we just didn't have time for.

I say "intuitively beneficial", because on my math at least you're still better off after the change than before it, in terms of just your own progression and wealth. Before the change you shelled out 9.2M ISK and expected to be getting what, 28-33 attribute points out of that in exchange for a month or so's training. After the change in your position, you've shelled out 9.2M ISK, you're getting 60 attribute points and your net training investment in them is zero. By Jan 1st you'll be in a much better position with the change than without the change.

On the flipside, I'm guessing you feel somewhat cheated out of the money, because if you'd known this earlier, you would have the same advantages in a month's time without having spent the money for it. That does kinda suck, and we're sorry that's happened to a few people.

Not to worry.. this also happened to me when the change from WTZ-Bookmarks to WTZ for everyone occurred.
Or when the old probing/exploration system was reinvented into the new version.
And I'm still here.. Twisted Evil

Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:11:00 - [1121]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. approved


I just wish I could keep a set or two as a collector item, in Memoriam of the old times.

SgtRaider
Caldari
Blue Moon Ventures
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:13:00 - [1122]
 

I like it and with all the SP I get to realocate I can get some other training completed ahead of schedule.

So what is the other half, I wonder.......Wink

Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:14:00 - [1123]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Odnam Moc
Even if it were a nerf to you, it's a buff to others.
I'm hearing "I like rock, scissors is fine, but you need to nerf paper."


Well the voices in your head are not doing you many favors.

+9001 to the post a couple above this that states people will complain about literally anything.

The only thing hurt in this situation is people's inflated sense of their EvE Online PHD character. Now everyone's going to have their own PHD and gosh darnit, it's just not fair.Sad

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:17:00 - [1124]
 

Damn I was hoping they would have the time to do the skills to be more usefull. But at least I will not have to go back to slow training times. And I will get that SP back. Thoughs were my two biggest fears.ugh

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:19:00 - [1125]
 

Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 08:22:03
Originally by: Odnam Moc
only thing hurt in this situation is people's inflated sense of their EvE Online PHD character. Now everyone's going to have their own PHD and gosh darnit, it's just not fair.Sad
Dude, try math again. It's a nerf for anyone who took the time to max thier skills. No more 10% bonus on top of maxxed attributes. We will in fact train slower then we do now. Plus it took us significantly longer to train our learning skills without the max attributes everyone else will now have right off the bat.

It takes 3 years to break even after you max them. Some of us are just seeing the payoff, only to have it snatched away. Worse for the people that haven't broken even yet.

RoyAraym
Gallente
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:25:00 - [1126]
 

Edited by: RoyAraym on 26/11/2010 08:26:31
Originally by: Marmios
Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir
So you remove learning skills, which there nice and added flavour. What's next? Will you introduce instances and battlegrounds? Free faction battleships(officer fitted, of course) to the newbies? Max skill point to every character?


You mad because newer players wont be forced to train 3 months of worthless time and you had to? Learning skills added depth? wtf are you smoking ? Why dont you idiot just shut up?


How cannot I quote mr Marmios?

I runned some of "basic training corp", just for fun to make more people like EvE.
I could explain how the game works, to a lot of guys... but... 3 months training for just "metagaming abilities" make a lot of them quit, long before they could play that time (weeks and weeks gaining nothing useful at the start, to have a marginal benefit just in the long-long-run - probably just after an year or more).

Yes: i'm also disapointed by this decision, because if CCP threw away Learning skill a lot before, probably i had a less trouble at my start (... i'm not so old, but i started - in EXODUS - when toons have 70k sp, NO skilling bonuses, NO ITEM BONUS - skills book and ships from tutorials - and VERY LOW attribute: that needed a loth more months to have some decent ships under my but-t-t-t) but i can cope with free 3millions sp to jump in other, more useful, skill branches.

And... yes... i'm smoking... and I'm happy with it.

My 2 free slot in my second account are happy too. And my actual alt, with maxed learning, better than my main, is also more happy than me... :P

Great XMas gift.

Superform
Caldari
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:28:00 - [1127]
 

Edited by: Superform on 26/11/2010 08:28:27
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Superform
Edited by: Superform on 25/11/2010 12:41:19
graph one is not working, the skills needed dont jump.. but the line does.. please explain

edit.. i'll explain a bit more, the number of skill points to fly a drake well or good should be a constant.. in the 3rd line it isnt..

The third line in the first graph has ~500k SP in learning trained up front, which don't help you fly a Drake in the slightest. (Which is why we're removing them.)


Ok sorry i didnt mean the 3rd line I meant the 2nd line,

In the graph it shows 4 scenarios, the skill points required to fly a drake shouldnt change right? its a constant? so its either just over 5m or its just over 6m.. but it cant be both... the graph is broken!!


Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:29:00 - [1128]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 08:19:17
Originally by: Odnam Moc
only thing hurt in this situation is people's inflated sense of their EvE Online PHD character. Now everyone's going to have their own PHD and gosh darnit, it's just not fair.Sad
Dude, try math again. It's nerf for anyone who took the time to max thier skills. No more 10% bonus on top of maxxed attributes. It takes 3 years to break even after you max them. Some of us are just seeing the payoff, only to have it snatched away. Worse for the people that haven't broken even yet.


"It takes 3 years to break even after you max them."

1) You are looking at this from a raw time investment angle. You are getting 5.4 mil SP back to spend as you see fit, with no restrictions. If things were different, these SP would have been spent somewhere. You know, like, in actual skills that affect actual things your character can actually do in the actual game. No biggie.
2) You openly admit you were planning on playing Eve for well over 3+ years when you made the "investment". CCP is making a change you feel nullifies this investment. Question: What investment is without risk? Did you know CCP would even be in business right now 3 years ago?

Additionally you seem to think that somehow skillpoints start to accrue on top of each other in some mad interest-type avalanche of awesome after the magic number of 3 years. Could you have had more SP at 3 years and 1 day on the old learning system? Yes. But how many years would it have taken for you to be "up" 5.4 million SP? Will you still be playing eve by then?

I maintain my position that the opposition to this is raw emotion in a game that prides itself on phrases like "HTFU", and therefore one of the most ironic things I've ever seen on these internets, and this ain't my first rodeo.

Dian Rasd
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:33:00 - [1129]
 

Originally by: Odnam Moc

I maintain my position that the opposition to this is raw emotion in a game that prides itself on phrases like "HTFU", and therefore one of the most ironic things I've ever seen on these internets, and this ain't my first rodeo.


This.

Some people need to adapt or die.
And by die I mean give me all their stuff before quitting ofc.

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:33:00 - [1130]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 08:22:03
Originally by: Odnam Moc
only thing hurt in this situation is people's inflated sense of their EvE Online PHD character. Now everyone's going to have their own PHD and gosh darnit, it's just not fair.Sad
Dude, try math again. It's a nerf for anyone who took the time to max thier skills. No more 10% bonus on top of maxxed attributes. We will in fact train slower then we do now. Plus it took us significantly longer to train our learning skills without the max attributes everyone else will now have right off the bat.

It takes 3 years to break even after you max them. Some of us are just seeing the payoff, only to have it snatched away. Worse for the people that haven't broken even yet.



that last sentence is my issue also... I've not even started to break even and I'm just being gived the SP back, and everyone is equal now (except for implants)... this is a game changing change... there was a game in skilling... there was a game in planning your skills years in advance and planning on skilling faster than those that CHOOSE not to skill in learning... now noone has a choice and existing players will forever be entrenched in their SP advantage. Removing the only method of catching up 6 years into the game is a nerf...

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:33:00 - [1131]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 26/11/2010 08:46:50

I think some of the more cheerful posters should remind themselves that games are only fun because of purely artificial restrictions.

Every time you remove one of these restrictions it may seem like a good idea for the individual player at that point in time but in the end you remove content/depth from the game (so you have to be very careful with that).

That being said... I don't like the removal of learning skills (at all), however it will allow me to shut down one of my accounts sooner than I had anticipated (because the alts on it will have finished their training and can be transferred to my main account) so I am not too sad about this. Of course I will take full advantage of the "free 19 days remap" effectively offered by the SP reimbursement (I repeat: now is the best time to train your advanced learning skills).
But that's what I am talking about above - I like the immediate gains so I don't mind the removal of learning skills too much but of course it dumbs down the game even further (in line with the revamp of the starting characters, the introduction of neural remaps and the fact that you start out with two remaps instead of one). However, returning from 2 days of playing WoW pretty much non-stop I feel right at home.

Learning skills were imo in fact optional - on mains you could choose between 5/4 and 5/5 (and it's not only about breaking even with SP totals or effective SP totals but being able to train new skills quickly when deviating from long-term training plans is a value in itself; maybe 4/4 was feasible for mains too if you can have high-level implants plugged in at all times), for more specialized alts 4/3, 4/4 and 5/4 were all feasible choices depending on circumstances.

I don't know why EVE has to cater even more to "the new player" - in 2 days of playing WoW I met maybe 25 other human players (most of these in 2 capital cities I visited), EVE seems to be crowded all the time. I think I would be very happy with CCP using WoD or Dust to grow their revenue and just let EVE stabilize. The server population has a looong way to go until space feels empty and hostile again.

(maybe I am a bit biased but most of the new players I have encountered since Apocrypha I would want weeded out from this game sooner rather than later - and every hurdle you have to surpass to get into EVE ensures certain quality standards in the remaining players)

Elisha Starkiller
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:39:00 - [1132]
 

I have run out of cheese to go with wine in this thread.....

what i dont understand is why people are angry about this, it is a game if you dont like it leave..... there is no point debating it as this is happening. most bitter vets seem quick enough to tell a noob to leave if they dont like it so do it.....

go on i dare you.... Twisted Evil

Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:41:00 - [1133]
 

Edited by: Odnam Moc on 26/11/2010 08:44:24
Originally by: Sed Man
Originally by: Torothanax
Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 08:22:03
Originally by: Odnam Moc
only thing hurt in this situation is people's inflated sense of their EvE Online PHD character. Now everyone's going to have their own PHD and gosh darnit, it's just not fair.Sad
Dude, try math again. It's a nerf for anyone who took the time to max thier skills. No more 10% bonus on top of maxxed attributes. We will in fact train slower then we do now. Plus it took us significantly longer to train our learning skills without the max attributes everyone else will now have right off the bat.

It takes 3 years to break even after you max them. Some of us are just seeing the payoff, only to have it snatched away. Worse for the people that haven't broken even yet.



that last sentence is my issue also... I've not even started to break even and I'm just being gived the SP back, and everyone is equal now (except for implants)... this is a game changing change... there was a game in skilling... there was a game in planning your skills years in advance and planning on skilling faster than those that CHOOSE not to skill in learning... now noone has a choice and existing players will forever be entrenched in their SP advantage. Removing the only method of catching up 6 years into the game is a nerf...


Cuz it was all about "Choice", right? Like the "choice" to get Learning to 5 so that your brand new character could go on to (someday) learn actual skills that actually affected actual gameplay within the actual game. Like the "choice" to keep chipping away at said skills, paying a hefty sum (for a noob) to get the secondary books up, all the while hoping to someday be able to fly something bigger and better.

What a "choice".

Tidanis
Autistic Sharks
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:42:00 - [1134]
 

2 things:

1. From a business model, I'm really surprised you guys didn't do this earlier. One of the hardest things for new players to train are learning, and they are expensive for most new players.

2. Thank god you are taking them away. Excellent choice.

2a. Buried on page 38.. ftl

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:42:00 - [1135]
 

Originally by: Odnam Moc
"It takes 3 years to break even after you max them."

1) You are looking at this from a raw time investment angle. You are getting 5.4 mil SP back to spend as you see fit, with no restrictions. If things were different, these SP would have been spent somewhere. You know, like, in actual skills that affect actual things your character can actually do in the actual game. No biggie.
2) You openly admit you were planning on playing Eve for well over 3+ years when you made the "investment". CCP is making a change you feel nullifies this investment. Question: What investment is without risk? Did you know CCP would even be in business right now 3 years ago?

Additionally you seem to think that somehow skillpoints start to accrue on top of each other in some mad interest-type avalanche of awesome after the magic number of 3 years. Could you have had more SP at 3 years and 1 day on the old learning system? Yes. But how many years would it have taken for you to be "up" 5.4 million SP? Will you still be playing eve by then?

I maintain my position that the opposition to this is raw emotion in a game that prides itself on phrases like "HTFU", and therefore one of the most ironic things I've ever seen on these internets, and this ain't my first rodeo.
I didn't invest to "break even". I invested to end up ahead in the long run. Like in a couple of years. And yes I fully expected Eve to be around long enough for my time to be worth it. Guess I was right huh? And I fully expect Eve will be around in another 2 or 3 years, with or without this chance to learning skills. It's a good game that continues to improve.

The point is: I and others will now train slower. It's a nerf. An unwarrented nerf. Especially after 7 years. When you mess with skill training, you mess with the core of Eve.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.11.26 08:46:00 - [1136]
 

Originally by: Sed Man
ccp are never gona read all this...
We are still reading.

Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:49:00 - [1137]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Odnam Moc
"It takes 3 years to break even after you max them."

1) You are looking at this from a raw time investment angle. You are getting 5.4 mil SP back to spend as you see fit, with no restrictions. If things were different, these SP would have been spent somewhere. You know, like, in actual skills that affect actual things your character can actually do in the actual game. No biggie.
2) You openly admit you were planning on playing Eve for well over 3+ years when you made the "investment". CCP is making a change you feel nullifies this investment. Question: What investment is without risk? Did you know CCP would even be in business right now 3 years ago?

Additionally you seem to think that somehow skillpoints start to accrue on top of each other in some mad interest-type avalanche of awesome after the magic number of 3 years. Could you have had more SP at 3 years and 1 day on the old learning system? Yes. But how many years would it have taken for you to be "up" 5.4 million SP? Will you still be playing eve by then?

I maintain my position that the opposition to this is raw emotion in a game that prides itself on phrases like "HTFU", and therefore one of the most ironic things I've ever seen on these internets, and this ain't my first rodeo.
I didn't invest to "break even". I invested to end up ahead in the long run. Like in a couple of years. And yes I fully expected Eve to be around long enough for my time to be worth it. Guess I was right huh? And I fully expect Eve will be around in another 2 or 3 years, with or without this chance to learning skills. It's a good game that continues to improve.

The point is: I and others will now train slower. It's a nerf. An unwarrented nerf. Especially after 7 years. When you mess with skill training, you mess with the core of Eve.


To refer you to a point I made earlier: I'm sure 8 years down the road, you all will REALLY be cursing CCP for those few hundred thousand SPs you're going to be missing as you fly around in the myriad of ships that having a 10-12 year old character will no doubt afford you.

Jennifer Drama
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:51:00 - [1138]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Sed Man
ccp are never gona read all this...
We are still reading.


Really? Because the whining is terrible.

CCP: "we're doing something that's good for a lot of people, especially new people"

Whiners: "but what about ME??!!1? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH"

Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:54:00 - [1139]
 

Can we get an official CCP announcement if remaps will be available to everyone after this change. It would seem pretty silly to be stuck with a 9-15-5-5-5 remap for the next year when I could have a 15-15-15-15-14. Also I assume that the attribute point limit will be larger so I could, for example, have 25-25-5-5-5.

Leke NeDrax
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 08:56:00 - [1140]
 

This is possibly the single most sensible thing I have ever read on CCP's behalf. The learning skills are bad for players, bad for newbie retention and ultimately bad for the game.

The learning skills were definitely one of Eve's "Sounds good on paper" features that completely destroyed the new player experience. Now, there's a lot of those sounded-good-in-development features still around, but this is a positive step to moving the game design forward into a very good space. I've personally had a hand in getting between six and a dozen players to try Eve and every single one (and me, way back when) found the learning skills to be a major turn-off from the game. Eve at its worst is dull, boring and monotonous - everything the learning skills embodied. You need to keep new players away from the dull and show them what Eve can be, or you lose them.

It's like inviting everyone to play football and then insisting they read Sir Alex Ferguson's biography cover to cover before they can actually play.

It also seems that most of the objection can be summed up as: "I suffered months of boredom, so should they". If you can't see how hurtful this argument is to Eve as a whole, well, there's nothing I can do for you.

As far as the CSM goes. If you did have weight in this decision then good on you. If you didn't and it's just a happy coincidence, well, that's kinda ok too.


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