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Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:48:00 - [871]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/11/2010 21:57:21
Originally by: Ja'ihra
Quote:

Lets start with one observation: You are truly horrible at quoting.

Followed by, how is that isk taken away from them? It was taken when they bought the learning skills, this change does not affect that in any way. They dont lose anything, they only gain alot of time since they dont need to train those skills.


That's because I don't post much but my writing or copy-paste skills has nothing to do with the subject.

People grinded for a month or longer to get the money to buy those skills. They just bought and injected(mostly)useless books. I think that +2 implants would have been a better investment.
A refund would be on its place, or not?. I don't see how this benefits those players. That's all.

Besides that I really liked the philosophy behind the learning skills in EVE. It's simulates RL. But that's a different story.






Besides that your quote failed again, come on your post just doesnt make sense. Before this change they didnt have that isk and they didnt have learning skills trained. After this change they dont have the isk, and they (effectively) do have learning skills trained without any time lost. How would that possibly be not a benefit?

Torrema Sinclair
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:48:00 - [872]
 

Took you long enough to realize that learning skills SUCK. THX!

Logic Principle1
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:48:00 - [873]
 

So urmm, I may be at a bit of a loss here, but how do the whole slot 1-5 implants work now?.. do we still have them, and they simply add more attributes and thus allow for still faster training?.. or are they going to be replaced by implant sets like the grail/slaves/halo's/crystals that we have now?.. just, alittle worse and thus more affordable to the garden variety noob?

All in all though I appreciate the changes; my alt can be in a tengu by christmas, my main can train up another BS to V by christmas (or be in a legion) and my R&D alt can hit up the charon.

Nice.

Dirk Culliford
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:49:00 - [874]
 

I came

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:53:00 - [875]
 

I don't see how people can think that they are 'losing isk spent on learning skills' ??? You paid for the skillbook, you get the attributes. Whether you got them from training, or through this (AWESOME) change, you still get them. Just because they're not "officially" learning skills now everyone has the effect of them in place, so if they paid that's fair.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:55:00 - [876]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 22:04:36
Originally by: Pottsey
No it does not take 8 years at least all the time. It can take 8 years or it can take much less. Take this Scenario. You invest the learning SP in your current skill plan, later a change of circumstance happen and you change skill plans. Perhaps new skills, perhaps a change of direction whatever the reason that new skill plan now earns 622,080 less skill points a year and take longer then train with the new change over the old change.
This assumes that you will always be perfectly poised to remap to match these new changes and that the additions will match some attribute combination that there is a 365 day+ supply for… which is one huge assumption. You might just as well come up with something that doesn't fit into your remap strategy and doesn't match the attributes you want to have, at which point time just keeps passing, delaying that supposed 8-year cutoff point further into the future.

…oh, and as someone pointed out, if you avoid staring yourself blind on the "total SP" count, you can continuously use those stored SP to even out the losses you gain over the years, and thus be just as (un)agile in your changes as with the current system (until they run out, which, with this strategy will be those 8 years down the line). Granted, the kind of record-keeping required to make use of this would drive the most OCD person insane, but hey, we're EVE-players — we passed that line ages ago. Razz

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:56:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Logic Principle1
So urmm, I may be at a bit of a loss here, but how do the whole slot 1-5 implants work now?..


Exactly the same as they work now, same for remaps, they are not in any way related to this change.

KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:56:00 - [878]
 

To all of you who simply jumped in to start whining about your small deficit on SP/Hr because you "wasted time" training up L5 learning skills, and didn't actually bother reading the discussion should take note of this:

Originally by: Charlotte Yakamoto
So, to the people whining about getting slower training times. True, you'll be training at 2700 SP/hour instead of 2772 SP/hour. Now take into account that you will have 5.3m SP that you can now put in skills you'd otherwise have to train. Putting these 72SP/h loss against a 5.3m SP win, it will take 3067 days, or about 8.3 years, until you ACTUALLY start losing out in actual skills trained. Until then, you're actually ahead.


I applaud CCP on this decision, learning skills have been one of my major issues with the EVE Universe and I personally can't wait to see the back of them. Merry Christmas everyone! Very Happy

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:58:00 - [879]
 

""You have entered a universe where the path to glory is paved by one's choices. Those choices do not come without consequence, and every action taken can carry one closer to their highest goals or drag them down to unimaginable depths.""

-=Author: CCP=-

"Eve online: Incursion Clone wars."

Hope next time we all get same portret so we all look the same and reduce server load :).

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:59:00 - [880]
 

Originally by: Cyberus
""You have entered a universe where the path to glory is paved by one's choices. Those choices do not come without consequence, and every action taken can carry one closer to their highest goals or drag them down to unimaginable depths.""

-=Author: CCP=-

"Eve online: Incursion Clone wars."

Hope next time we all get same portret so we all look the same and reduce server load :).


+1

Rupicolous
Higher Ground
Posted - 2010.11.25 21:59:00 - [881]
 

So we have trial accounts that can currently train for tier 1 BS and smart bombs within a month that are reusable or disposable and now you are giving grievers even more power in less time.

So many things just don't make sense with this decision.

The only thing that does is ......... Make it easier for noobs and make more money quicker.

'really hope you have considered the long term effects of this in the grander scheme of business.

I'm sure your competition is watching very closely.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:02:00 - [882]
 

Originally by: Logic Principle1
So urmm, I may be at a bit of a loss here, but how do the whole slot 1-5 implants work now?..


Did you read blog? Did it said about implants? No? Then what is your question?

Galahad1
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:02:00 - [883]
 

....Neutral

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:02:00 - [884]
 

Originally by: Rupicolous
So we have trial accounts that can currently train for tier 1 BS and smart bombs within a month that are reusable or disposable and now you are giving grievers even more power in less time.

So many things just don't make sense with this decision.

The only thing that does is ......... Make it easier for noobs and make more money quicker.

'really hope you have considered the long term effects of this in the grander scheme of business.

I'm sure your competition is watching very closely.

Minus that trials dont last a month, and first 1.6M SP used to be about same speed. If anything this makes normal accounts more competitive with alts since on alts it just costs you one plex to train those learning skills and you can play on your main, on a new account you just spend loads of time in the beginning not being able to do much since you lack skills.

Uki Egdoca
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:03:00 - [885]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
I don't see how people can think that they are 'losing isk spent on learning skills' ??? You paid for the skillbook, you get the attributes. Whether you got them from training, or through this (AWESOME) change, you still get them. Just because they're not "officially" learning skills now everyone has the effect of them in place, so if they paid that's fair.


well, I have a 10mill sp character, just finished maxing out learning skills, thats 5,3mill. that means that in the time I have been training my learning skills, I have been "stuck" with my other half, 5mill sp, for about 5-6 months, over half my time playing eve. A time I could have spendt on lets say my drone and gunnery skills, getting more dps, finishing missions faster, and making more isk. So over the time I have been training learnig skills, you can see that I have "lost" more then just the isk on books.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:05:00 - [886]
 

Originally by: Rupicolous
So we have trial accounts that can currently train for tier 1 BS


Quote:
Skill at operating Caldari battleships. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts.


Still fail. Try again.

the tracter
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:06:00 - [887]
 

Exclamationyour making the game so people or new players dont have to think. they can go into the game and in a short time be in a good ship. not for the fact that other people have spent 6 months mining to get isk.
what about the time where i have trained up the skills upto level 5 so i can train faster.
your makeing this game for the new player can go straight to a good ship, not spend time trying to get isk for a good ship.
if this was done two years ago, what about the time people have spent traing, and the time before that when they could have us a drake.
people might as well go back to X3reunion. at least they dont chage there mind.
if they wish to get rid of some thing out of the game, try getting rid of the certification thing. thats about as much use snow.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:06:00 - [888]
 

Whether or not this change is good, I leave up to others to judge.

But what boggles me, is how the devblog constantly uses a counter-argument to why didn't you use the best/better solution stating that CCP "doesn't have enough time (until Christmas)".

It's never a good thing to rush decisions, particulary not something that has such a major impact as the skill training. Why you guys thought it'd be funny to type that multiple time in the blog, and use it as an argument, is quite frankly disgusting. Nopes, I'm not very surprised. Razz

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:07:00 - [889]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 22:07:49
Originally by: Uki Egdoca
Originally by: Caldariftw123
I don't see how people can think that they are 'losing isk spent on learning skills' ??? You paid for the skillbook, you get the attributes. Whether you got them from training, or through this (AWESOME) change, you still get them. Just because they're not "officially" learning skills now everyone has the effect of them in place, so if they paid that's fair.


well, I have a 10mill sp character, just finished maxing out learning skills, thats 5,3mill. that means that in the time I have been training my learning skills, I have been "stuck" with my other half, 5mill sp, for about 5-6 months, over half my time playing eve. A time I could have spendt on lets say my drone and gunnery skills, getting more dps, finishing missions faster, and making more isk. So over the time I have been training learnig skills, you can see that I have "lost" more then just the isk on books.


You can still distribute these points into named skills. What's wrong, now?

Originally by: the tracter
Exclamationyour making the game so people or new players dont have to think.


Training learning skills was never a thoughtful choice. It was a straightforward nobrainer.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:07:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: Uki Egdoca
Originally by: Caldariftw123
I don't see how people can think that they are 'losing isk spent on learning skills' ??? You paid for the skillbook, you get the attributes. Whether you got them from training, or through this (AWESOME) change, you still get them. Just because they're not "officially" learning skills now everyone has the effect of them in place, so if they paid that's fair.


well, I have a 10mill sp character, just finished maxing out learning skills, thats 5,3mill. that means that in the time I have been training my learning skills, I have been "stuck" with my other half, 5mill sp, for about 5-6 months, over half my time playing eve. A time I could have spendt on lets say my drone and gunnery skills, getting more dps, finishing missions faster, and making more isk. So over the time I have been training learnig skills, you can see that I have "lost" more then just the isk on books.

So because the only difference for you is that you get 5M free SP, you lose isk and time? This has been asked now over 9000 times, please explain how getting 5M SP and no other changes qualifies as losing...

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:08:00 - [891]
 

I find all this a bit funny actually. Many of think this is going to going to keep new players because they won't have to spend X amount of time on the Learning Skills, but the fact is, these people will still quit because they think they can't "do anything" until Y skill finishes. They might stay an extra month,but in the long run, there will be no noticeable change in active users. Then add in the fact that these same people can't set goals for themselves. People should start dumping their T2 BPOs now, because if CCP is going to do a radical change to gameplay like removing the learning skills, certainly those are next.

Joe Egger
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:09:00 - [892]
 

Thx for dumbing up eve ccp,

I dont mind losing the 2 days and 17 hours and 42 minutes training time this nerf cost me per year.
The worst thing is making Eve so much easier to new comers, I thought thats what Wow is for ?

OH wait you want Wow payer subscription fees, I get it: "show me the cash" motto from 5th element.

Plz make pos fueling easier to then, you'll realy get alot of loving from the playerbase than this change.

sue denim
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:12:00 - [893]
 

Awesome: exactly the change that should happen imo.

Surprisingly I 100% agree with everything in a dev blog for once, gj.

Ancyker
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:14:00 - [894]
 

December 14th is my new Christmas.

Please don't push back the date. In fact, if anything, move it up :)

Seriously I love this change. The only thing to make it sweeter is throw in +1 remap so we can re-tweak our stats a bit but I'm happy with or without that. :)

Dungheap
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:15:00 - [895]
 

Originally by: KFenn
To all of you who simply jumped in to start whining about your small deficit on SP/Hr because you "wasted time" training up L5 learning skills, and didn't actually bother reading the discussion should take note of this:

Originally by: Charlotte Yakamoto
So, to the people whining about getting slower training times. True, you'll be training at 2700 SP/hour instead of 2772 SP/hour. Now take into account that you will have 5.3m SP that you can now put in skills you'd otherwise have to train. Putting these 72SP/h loss against a 5.3m SP win, it will take 3067 days, or about 8.3 years, until you ACTUALLY start losing out in actual skills trained. Until then, you're actually ahead.




noted. that's really some creative math he's done there. 8.3 yrs lol. bottom line is, after this change, i'll have the exact same sp as now, and train slower.

not really upset as it's good for the game but plz..Rolling Eyes

Concornage
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:15:00 - [896]
 

Ok so I have read the full details for the change plans and I do like that CCP will be getting rid of learning skills but I don't truly feel that the people who train'd the 5.376mill SP in learning are actually getting fully reimbursed. Those of us all of us who did train learning skills to any amount it took us longer than it will after the change to learn ourselves up another 5.376mill SP or less and because of that I simply ask that they add what was lost in training time to gain those Learning attributes. Please just do the math and you should see that it is a size-able difference in sp. Otherwise extended game time would also be appreciated Smile I have not read the whole 30 pages of this thread but I browsed through it and didn't spot anyone who caught this so figured I would bring it to your attn. Please respond and thank you for reading!

Fyrr Deerdan
Caldari
Epsilon Lyr
BPLAN
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:18:00 - [897]
 

I didn't read through the 30 pages of text, so sorry if it was posted.

:facepalm: Greyscale on the graphs.

They show us that we will require less skillpoints in the future to drive a drake (graph 1), but that now we start at -500k SP (graph 2). Lol.

Otherwise, love the change :) Training learning for newbies was a tradeoff between something boring (nothing new that my chararacter can do for weeks) and feeling stupid for not training them.

WTG CCP !! Very Happy


Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:18:00 - [898]
 

Yea!

Now to figure out which skills to speed boost to level 5!

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:19:00 - [899]
 

The overall style of the blog was great, btw. Just the content that was sorely lacking.

GJ on style, CCP!

Dinak Khnid
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:19:00 - [900]
 

My investment in training skills was just that. You've rendered that investment null and void. You say you are giving us a "present" - what a sack of coal- taking the advantage of the invested in training skills is a great thank you for the loyalty and investment into your game. Way to screw us again as you fatten your collective bottom lines. Some of us trained (at enormous time invested) these "learning" skills. Oh well whaaaa to us! **** poor since there is nothing short of going to play elsewhere to satisfy the unfaireness of it all. I could give a hoot less about the complaints of those who feel it unfair to "train" for an advantage we took the time to get.

CMS is doing it's job in celebratiang your decision. Don't think for one second you've fooled us into thinking they represent the paying client - all of us know they will cheer the company line.

This chanage sucks. I can make a graph to prove anything. No, i don't believe this is anything short of another scheme to drain even more dollars/monies from those of us playing multiple accounts. I for one will not add another nor recommend another to play.

Too many pages for you to note the dissenting voices, won't change anything at any rate however, I put my voice in dissent forward.

You and your plan suck. Play to the whinners that didn't take time to train. The character I created for other purposes and have been training learning skills ever since to gain that advanatage, since it's conception is no longer valid - i've wasted almost 2 months training skills your've decided to make defunct - damn! I could have gotten into that drake.

At least you told me prior to the repayment date so i could kill it b4 you took another payment. Way to go CCP - thinking of better ways to screw your clientel -


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