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Robert Lowell
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:26:00 - [181]
 

Issue with combat in stations. You can't get to your clone. When you get podded in a pod some Jove system sends needle and toxin into your brain before you actually die (yes the pod kills you not the enemy ; P) and takes a snapshot of the neural activity - this explains the re spawn mechanic of EvE. If you die OUT of that safe little pod guess what you don't get downloaded into a new body. YOU DIE. meaning you must make a new character, maybe inherit the last guys stuff but you have to retrain all those many many skills.

So if you want allow some guy with a gun to splatter your brains and have you loose months to years worth of skill training then support this topic. But I prefer not to have such a thing, maybe hand to hand combat so I can knock the bastard out and steal his ISK card :P or the key to his ship.


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:31:00 - [182]
 

Yet agaaaaaain: fiction does not determine mechanics, and especially not good mechanics. Tomorrow CCP could decide that the actual brain scanner is the size of a penny, or just say "a wizard did it" and we can med clone. To day nothing of the fact that some official fiction already says you can cone even outside of a pod.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.17 07:45:00 - [183]
 

No thanks. There's a time to play, and a time to dock up and go to sleep. No particular desire to wake up, log on, only to be immediately suicide ganked in station.

That's the problem with you so-called pirates, isn't it? It's not the carebears who want it easy, but YOU. Otherwise you wouldn't be incessantly whining about wanting more easy prey. Man up already, and go shoot someone in low-sec. Oh wait, you might lose there.

Moar Dakka
Posted - 2011.01.17 10:17:00 - [184]
 

One shard, and it's based in iceland. 200+ ping. Barely able to keep up with MMO style combat. Oop, look at the time, must dash.

You could make 8 (in combination with 4, obv.) instanced, and matched only against people with a decent ping, and I'll support that contingent on there being no MMO rubbish about trained skills improving weapon accuracy / ROF / magazine size / hit points. Make it about player skill. Also, strap in for the myg0t invasion.

Don't make it a crappy KOTOR/SWOL knock off. If I want to play a futuristic isometric thing with one click combat, I'll play Fallout.

9 is really distracting from what the devs should be doing, so I'm not supportive. Use EVE as a testbed for your WID engine? Sure, go nuts. Distract from making actual spaceships online content? Not so much.

If you can somehow make a single shard per station FPS thingy with not-godawful lag and killable NPC's (including the station police forces), I'd be on board. Until then, no.

Interferentus
Posted - 2011.01.17 10:49:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Interferentus on 17/01/2011 10:53:22
Originally by: Ranka Mei
No thanks. There's a time to play, and a time to dock up and go to sleep. No particular desire to wake up, log on, only to be immediately suicide ganked in station.

That's the problem with you so-called pirates, isn't it? It's not the carebears who want it easy, but YOU. Otherwise you wouldn't be incessantly whining about wanting more easy prey. Man up already, and go shoot someone in low-sec. Oh wait, you might lose there.


Read please Apsidia last post, a bit other idea there is described. How it to you?
If to follow the idea described by Apsidia to you threatens nothing and you can easy sleep, if you will not fall asleep with pushed button "W" on the keypboard and you will not reach the airlock, big shreder or something threaty.
If you stay in dock in a pod - threatens is zero too.

Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.01.17 11:24:00 - [186]
 

I didn't read the entire topic, but here's how I would see it. Note that it is security-heavy as there is no real need to exit your ship and if ganking is too easy no one will.

Captains's quarters: Safe. Even if you can invite someone there any weapons would be greyed out as your scanners would notice anything dangerous and be left outside.

Main deck: The deck that connects to hangar. This deck is the safest one and holds the station facilities and the most expensive stores to rent. The security here depends on the security level of the system, but in general unholstering any weapons will result in quick (as in ~1 sec, enough for a single shot) webifying, fines, confiscation of all weapons carried and SS loss. Firing a weapon here gives a massive SS loss in addition to the previous and concord-style retaliation. Also pilots with -5 or lower status will not be able to enter this area. In this area you should be able to gank someone in a group if you are really determined, but it should be penalizing enough to make ganking a random passerby not worth the trouble. No shooting at war targets.

High security decks: Same as above, but the reaction time for law enforcement will be little lower (3-5 seconds, enough for a few rounds of ammo). Ganking in this area should still require a small group of coordinated people to pull it off successfully and in general make it not worth the hassle to shoot random people.

Low security decks: The security is more sparse in here and will respond in around 8-10 seconds, meaning a gank could be done with just a couple of people. Walking with an unconcealed weapon isn't a crime anymore. The penalties for ganking will still apply (they could be lessened a bit though because of corruption and such) as the station management wouldn't want explosive decompression and a hefty repair bill for some badly placed shot. The reason for keeping the concord here is so that these decks will not become a wasteland like low sec is now. Shooting war targets could be considered legal here. After all any damage done to the station could be billed from your corporation.

Lawless decks: The decks so far from anything that has any value (or with extra-reinforced walls in the case of low/nullsec) that they are not regularily guarded. No rules, but an occasional security patrol will pass trough every now and then. They will respond to nearby weapons fire and can be killed, though firing at the security will spawn several patrols looking for the offenders and responding to weapons fire usually. They will also guard the elevator shafts to prevent the aggressors from easily escaping.

As for the general station configuration: All stations in Empire has a main and at least one low security deck, even in 1.0 to let the low security people get out of their pods. In general the higher security systems should have more high security decks than lowsec systems. The actual number of decks will be left to CCP depending the deck size and traffic experienced by that station. The decks will have a clear indication of what security status it has, either as big bold letters next to the elevator, colour coding or in the GUI like when in space.

On equipment: Players should have defensive equipment to prevent the "surprise, you're dead!" situation. Shields, armour, Jove/Sansha body regeneration or whatever. Stronger variants could be left usable only in low security decks if deemed too difficult to penetrate in high security (walking around in a heavy battle armour could be considered as a plan to cause havoc after all). Customizing these to counter specific weapons would add more variety than just seeing who has the biggest pool of numbers.

Likewise the weapons should have more than just 1 type of projectiles, blasters and lasers. Also include rare and illegally modified variants. Limiting the higher security to conceable weapons only while letting people carry rifles in low security could add variety to areas.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.01.17 12:46:00 - [187]
 

mhm, nano-disassembler grenade :) on perma-death note. it shouldn't happen. jump clones allow for non-lethal transfers. which means, every time pilots leave pod, they get a "save point".

Apsidia
Very Industrial Corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.17 14:03:00 - [188]
 

Bar: (maybe) The very serious and huge security guard, takes away the weapon, here again fight by fists and feet is possible only. Smile

Add for Lawless decks:
Illegal weapon and other criminal items can be trade here by NPC or Players.
Exclusive missions for pirate-players (ss -5 and lower) can be found here.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.18 06:10:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
No thanks. There's a time to play, and a time to dock up and go to sleep. No particular desire to wake up, log on, only to be immediately suicide ganked in station.


Good thing I pointed out that your hangar will remain as safe as it's always been, eh, eh?
Really dodged a bullet there.

Originally by: Ranka Mei

That's the problem with you so-called pirates, isn't it? It's not the carebears who want it easy, but YOU.


Ahh, with bonus 'I hate Pirates!' rant.
This isn't about easy targets, or targets of any kind. This is about adding content to a massive expansion that's currently only slated for Space Barbie and, perhaps, Fable style bar mini-games.

Freyr Ashen
the Organ Grinder and Company
Posted - 2011.01.18 15:12:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Freyr Ashen on 18/01/2011 15:12:05
best idea bout incarna i heard so far... and please make it so that u can gang up and jet the carebears from* the nearest airlock.

Apsidia
Very Industrial Corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.20 22:14:00 - [191]
 

"Oh. Stand. Wait!" - the Barman has told and has passed to whisper.
"That pilot whom you searched..." - he has made whisper even more silently - "He now here at station and it seems him search for the concord. It seems for him the quite good award is appointed! I share with you his site, for a modest payment in 40 million isk's, after all an award for him - the whole billion! You can buy the weapon in corridor N-5, the third deck of station, near to technical premises. We have a deal?" ...

Jakara Jomar
Caldari
Incidental Damage
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.01.21 03:32:00 - [192]
 

/signed - but some food for thought.

Anyone worried about "ganking".
Simple avoidance.
Don't be a 'tard, it's not hard.
It works for internet spaceships, then it'll work for internet barbie.


A word on cloning - I'm sure CCP might write in some story about some fancy new invention to go with WiS whereby the cloning tech is now implanted into capsuleers skulls. The hows whys and wherefores are for them to decide, and arguing it here is like arguing about the what ifs of if whedon created another firefly show. Either it'll happen, or it won't and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, so stop your whining.
Also - The Broker.

Station Security - high sec, is still high sec for a reason. Also, see above rules.
Besides, in High-sec, you've either gotta be suicidal, or be banking on the other guy to be a 'tard to kill him/her.
Only a minute percentage actually cover the first role, and the second role usually plays on the exact people who irritate the hell out of everyone else anyway. Kind of like Darwinism at work or something.


Next, devil's advocate - stations ARE currently written as super protected, only super sneaky folks with some major plans, and major money can get through that stuff. It would be pretty screwed up for CCP to go bass ackwards on stuff they've already written. Some idiot with a gun is probably going to get pounced on, just about anywhere on the average station. Giving CCP a licence to completely re-write fiction is like asking a chimp to re-write the entire works of shakespeare in 5 hours. "Not Good". Make this realistic, and force "high sec" gankers to jump through a ton of hoops to pull this off, like a real assassination/hit, and it might be worth considering. GTA style killings should be reserved for low sec and below, like it is already with our spaceships.


So... on the one hand, "Moar PvP".
On the other "oh noes, I no like PvP!" (seriously, call the waambulance).

Solution - a sizeable chunk of any given station is non-pvp. This gives people who don't wish to fight a choice of somewhere to go to not get shot. It also gives herds of 'tards a place to stay in safety. This place is for folks who want to play "legal" pilots, or whatever else. Everyone here is given a white hat I guess...

Another chunk of "gritty" real estate is given over to PvP and/or combat related content/RP/missions for those who wish to PvP or play the kind of person who shoots guns, deals drugs, pimps hookers, or smuggles stuff, or whatever else your dirty little minds can concoct (including assassinations I guess). No fancy hats for these people, 'cept what they already chose to wear.

Ultimately, EVE is about choice, and Risk vs Reward.
BOTH sides should be appeased, otherwise we run the risk of losing combatants, or targets, or whoever else from the community.
If people start arguing for said choice to be removed, it's kind of like arguing that null-sec should be removed (or low sec) or that guns should be outlawed in-game, etc etc etc.
Freedom of choice is an important factor of this game, and taking it away is a quick route to finding yourself podded into a new clone by just about anyone in locking range. Yes, even corp mates and fellow carebears. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Apsidia
Very Industrial Corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.24 08:29:00 - [193]
 

Good ideas must be closer to top!)

Kwashi
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
Posted - 2011.01.24 08:40:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Kwashi on 24/01/2011 08:42:11
When I first heard about Incarna, the combat potential is what got me excited. Killright-sanctioned shootouts! Fisticuffs! Duels! Hangar thievery (and dangerous guards that can be bought/upgraded)! Sabotage! Boarding derelicts / dead POSes for extra salvage (and battling whatever's infested them in the meantime - rogue drones etc)! "Hostile takeovers" where you walk into the enemy corp's station office and hose it down with hot plasma!

Here's hoping Incarna doesn't end up being just a see-and-be-seen scene. We can already dress up and go out IRL, we don't need to pay money per month to pretend to be a space pilot who dresses up and goes out :)

Tornicks
Caldari
The Green Cross
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.01.24 14:24:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Tornicks on 28/01/2011 01:14:54
Big 'no' to this proposal.
1. Every action in stations should be mature and thought-out social interaction, not running around and shooting like in action games;
2. Space should be the only PVP orientation of EVE, as all of its vast and complex PVP resources and tools that make it stand out have been created, re-created and iterated for space during all these 7 years. Shooting in stations would make it another (and worse than many current) action game.

Greg Huff
Posted - 2011.01.24 19:10:00 - [196]
 

NO

unless...

Stations are split into 3 sections - High, Low, and Null
    High - No combat permitted of any kind, not even kill-rights. Security scanners check for contraband as you pass through doorways.
    Low - No/weak security scanners; kill-rights permitted; unprovoked combat tags you as a wanted criminal, capture results in immediate execution.
    Null - Anything goes.
Leaving your ship always gives you direct access to High, plus access to Low and/or Null.

heyItradestuff
Posted - 2011.01.24 19:37:00 - [197]
 

i fail to see the point in pvp in a station, i figure a station is a city, so you will have working areas, offices, housing for the rich, and a slum area for the poor.
since capsuleers are like gods and a few isk is worth a lot then why would anyone go to the slum area?

i figure a High an low security area but no guns in high. slums will have fighting but no killing, just beatdowns ad general thug failures running around, maybe put a % of isk in an acual wallet when u go into station so you can be pickpocketed or robbed in the slum area, but you can also play cards, bet on slave fights, or buy a female escort.





anyways OP idea is pretty bad, and would recommend bio massing character immediately to spread the stupid virus.

Caspardian
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.01.27 02:20:00 - [198]
 

Maybe I'm late on this, because I haven't bothered to read the last3 pages of comments, but perhaps we should be allowed to plug into some sort of "virtual reality" to kill each other. It makes your wish of in-station combat come true, and it doesn't violate any sort of out of pod safety concerns.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:09:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Caspardian
it doesn't violate any sort of out of pod safety concerns.


There is no violation.
"Thanks to the Widget-Powered DeusEx device, pilots can now have their consciousness downloaded to medical clones even if they die outside of their pods. Science marches on! Next up, here's Tom with sports."

The fiction in EVE exists to support the game, not the other way around. And fiction doesn't necessarily make for good gameplay, either. (Do I get my Amarr superweapon that fits on a battleship and can destroy and entire enemy fleet now, or do I have to wait a while?)

Originally by: Jakara Jomar

Next, devil's advocate - stations ARE currently written as super protected


Even in EVE, there is no such thing as "total security", and you're overstating what the fiction actually says. If stations can be bombed with crude explosives, a determined individual can sneak a gun onboard or, at least, break a bottle and slit someone's throat.

Originally by: Jakara Jomar

Solution - a sizeable chunk of any given station is non-pvp.


Eh... not a good solution, and not a good precedent. If the anti-PvP folks can get that much, why not Empire space too? Part of the driving logic of EVE is that nowhere, at all, is completely safe.

Originally by: Tornicks
1. Every action in stations should be mature and thought-out social interaction


Yeah... this is EVE. It's a sandbox game. You don't get to decide how other people play the game, let alone that their actions should be "mature" and "thought out". If you need to control how other people play the game, this is not the game for you.

Originally by: Greg Huff

Stations are split into 3 sections


Combat is 100% allowed in every single location in EVE that is not your personal hangar. Everywhere. There is no reason to create a special space for stations where combat is physically impossible.

Originally by: heyItradestuff
i fail to see the point in pvp in a station


PvP, in a PvP game? The devil you say!
Originally by: heyItradestuff
maybe put a % of isk in an acual wallet when u go into station so you can be pickpocketed or robbed in the slum area


But you think that there should be actual paper money in the ultra-far-scifi-future. Do you think, when people go and buy faction battleships for hundreds of millions of ISK, are they counting out the cash in 20's or in 10's?

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:15:00 - [200]
 

Love it, ****ing LOVE it! Never going to happen but I LOVE it!!

Did I say I love it already?

Chinwe Rhei
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:29:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Chinwe Rhei on 21/02/2011 12:41:09
I'm against it, EvE is a tactical game not a shooter for hyperactive children.

The only EvE ground combat i support is a PC Dust version that maybe can be started from inside EvE. But not in stations.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:31:00 - [202]
 

There's nothing that says that shooting can't be tactical. Besides, arguing that there should be combat-free zones in EVE because combat is tactical is slightly misleading, eh?

Engage logic then post.

Chinwe Rhei
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:43:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Chinwe Rhei on 21/02/2011 13:00:58
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
There's nothing that says that shooting can't be tactical. Besides, arguing that there should be combat-free zones in EVE because combat is tactical is slightly misleading, eh?



There should be combat-free zones in EvE because there have always been combat-free zones in EvE, they're called Space Stations and they should stay that way.

And no, FPSs can't be tactical because FPS players are the single most moronic crowd of gamers and EvE is not designed with them in mind.
If you want to PvP in station join a game table or go to the market screen. If you're not smart enough to win there, undock.

There have always been supposedly three major career paths in EvE, the combat, the industrial and the business career.
The first two have had tons of content added for them through the years so think of Incarna as the long overdue expansion for the third. They've always called stations their home, their PvP is one of numbers and spredsheets.
Now they get to move around a bit as well. Last thing they need is some numbskull with a gun, as if combat types don't already have 1 million things to shoot at.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 13:04:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Chinwe Rhei

There should be combat-free zones in EvE because there have always been combat-free zones in EvE


It would be nice if you at least played EVE, ya know. There have never been combat free zones in EVE, that is simply fictional. And no, space stations were not "combat free" because, if you actually played the game, you'd know that they do not exist and never have, except as graphics in space. Hangars are the only place that's safe from combat, and they would remain so under my proposal.

Originally by: Chinwe Rhei

And no, FPS can't be tactical because FPS players are the single most moronic crowd of gamers



Yet again, engage logic, and only then, post.

Combat doesn't have to be FPS any more than ship combat in EVE is FPS. To say nothing about your absurd broad-brush ad hominem nonsense.
Yet again even ignoring all that your basic rhetoric is absurd. FPS combat would inherently be non-tactical (you claim), so therefore there should be no combat at all rather than non-FPS style combat.

The rest of your nonsense is appreciated, however. Yes, joining a "game table" is the kind of "tactical PvP" that you're supporting. Rolling Eyes

Jokerface666
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.21 13:23:00 - [205]
 

I wouldn't make Counterstrike Jita of it, BUT

It would be nice to sell for example illegal drugs in highsec, via person to person trade at some corner of the station. it would be nice to be able to have like a small cargo (pocket) where you can carry drugs, little bit ISK, and stuff with you, other players can sneak on to you and steal it.

Small stuff like that, which would make it much more interresting, not breath taking, OMG UEBERPWNAGE WTF LEWLT LAZER POINTING TO MY HEAD stuff, butt small funny things, built in betting system fro the minigames, where players who are watching can bet who will win.

To keep it a social like expirience i would keep it small but EMORAGEABLE
Would give much more reasons to emorage and declare war on someone =)

BR,
Joker

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 13:26:00 - [206]
 

Again, combat doesn't have to be FPS style. Hell, transplant the 'ship combat' style and put it in stations, just with different graphics.

And since nowhere in EVE that you can go is safe space, stations shouldn't be either.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.23 02:59:00 - [207]
 

I supported this thread back in post #67, but a few more words given its several months down the road and I have a much better understanding of what will and won't get responses from the game designers when it comes to proposals...

Given what I've learned about the process in CSM5, I'd say you'd be better off focusing more a proposal calling for PvP of some kind in stations and less on the specifics of how that should be implemented. Since none of us have any clear idea what CCP is planning for Incarna into the second and third iteration, nor what their limitations are technically or otherwise for WHAT they are willing to implement, spending a lot of time detailing implementation mechanics is largely a waste of time.

What they want is for players to propose an idea expressed as a solution to a problem. High level implementation ideas to help clarify both the problem and how it might be solved are okay. Numbers and percentages and well...game design, there I said it...no. As CCP has stated to CSM time and again, game DESIGN is their job to figure out. They just want your ideas for big-picture solutions to problems that you have identified.

THAT is the way any proposal from AH will have the best chance of being looked at seriously by CCP when CSM submits them. Detailed implementation mechanics--especially for ideas that are feature-level in scope--just make their eyes glaze over most of the time because 99.99% of the time, the details just won't work for a variety of reasons (game balance, other plans you don't know about, etc.).

That said, I support any proposal that puts more impetus behind the message that we want PvP of some kind in Incarna.

Ba'lur Rorrot
Posted - 2011.02.23 03:04:00 - [208]
 

you realize that buy the fluff were only immortal in a pod.
killing out side of a pod would be real death(no neural snapshot no sending of data) and that would case so much rage quit because of station gank that eve would die. also if you want eve FPS than push for dust.

Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.02.23 03:51:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Dunkler Imperator on 23/02/2011 03:54:10
Edited by: Dunkler Imperator on 23/02/2011 03:53:40
I read some where in the lore that pop pilots have Security forces to do their dirty work. What about being able to hire Dust players ? They follow u around protect you in Stations/Kill anything u don't likeTwisted Evil.

A few ideas/conditions for this to work.

1. dust players get paid and have an economic intensive.

2. The price is market driven I.E there are going to be 10 pod pilots to every dust player right so supply/demand.

3. The dust players would be paid per every 10 mins. So i can't just hire some1 and bore the crap out them doing nothing.

4. got to be able to talk let them know what's going on (I.E I've got a bounty and i want u guys to protect me.)

5. The more the better. Hiring more than one dust player totally allowed but the cost goes up *2 for each one.( i dunno but seems weird some guy could if he wanted buy 200 dust players for a few mins and have a gun fight with concord/kill Evey one in sight.)

6. perhaps you can see the stat's of players and they can choose their rates. So i can get a crappy player for cheap or a really skilled one for the big bucks.

Problems.

1. dust players might find this boring and completely break the feature.

2. How will The pod pilots let the dust players know who to kill and not to kill? Some sorta lock/broadcast thing?

3. Would pod pilots be able to join in the fight?( i sure hope so)

4.How do the dust players get all the way around the universe. Would they use generic bodies or only be able to work in certain stations.

5. would be a huge isk sink.( not sure if this is even a problem)

edit for Stuff

Nott Hunter
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:16:00 - [210]
 



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