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Khadann
Caldari
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.12.04 13:44:00 - [31]
 

Great topic,

I would like to add an idea.

I thought about adding an interface to mining. Not a mandatory one.

Basicaly, as miner, i'll use a specific scanner/module to study the asteroid i am mining. By zooming inside the asteroid, i would be able to identify 'rivers' of highly concentrated ore inside the asteroid.

It is not mandatory for me to active this scanner. I can do classic afk mining, but if i active this scanner, i have to zoom through the asteroid and to identify the good spots of concentrated ore from the other poor one.

It requires to active the scanner, to scan, and to select the river when it appears, because it moves and does not visiblee for long. you have to be in front of your computer and catch the river to get better ore...

I am sure something like this has been already proposed... You know, it is like Oil, petrol >> you have to find the perfect spot to get the best from the ground...


About the interface well... It should require to be focus on the screen to cattch the best spots, and also, skills would provide some info on the quality of the river...

Ok, i am just writing it, but more and more, i feel this thing like a PI Interface in the asteroid... Not sure it is good though...

Dro Nee
Posted - 2010.12.04 18:48:00 - [32]
 

Just out of curiosity

If mining is so mind numbingly boring and needs fixing

Why is the hulk so popular and why are there so many people still doing it (looking at the people in this thread)?

Not saying I do or dont support... just wondering why so many people are terrible at economics.

sYnc Vir
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2010.12.04 20:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Eve Orwell
Supported

also, roid belts as sites instead of celestials would be a good solution for when ccp fully eliminates downtime, since thats when they respawn (no downtime, how would belts respawn? sites respawn easier)


You cant remove belts, they are a natural thing. Space without belts would just seem completely stupid. However belts are not the pieceful gentle things you get in eve. Belts are full of fast moving constantly colliding rocks. I'd rather this element was brought in then moving all mining spots to sites.

Also site require probing out, not everyone wants to probe crap out. Mining ship as it is dont have space for a probe launcher and given you already need an alt to fly an orca to mine any real sizable amount. A second alt for probing its just taking the ****. Not everyone has the time and money to train up alts for everything as Refining skills alone are bloody years worth of training.

Leave the belts alone, just making small changes to the system. The idea of making the ore gained more skill based rather than lock and click seemed a good place to start.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.05 07:31:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Dro Nee
Just out of curiosity

If mining is so mind numbingly boring and needs fixing

Why is the hulk so popular and why are there so many people still doing it (looking at the people in this thread)?

Not saying I do or dont support... just wondering why so many people are terrible at economics.
Because it's low risk and also profitable.
Originally by: sYnc Vir
You cant remove belts, they are a natural thing. Space without belts would just seem completely stupid. However belts are not the pieceful gentle things you get in eve. Belts are full of fast moving constantly colliding rocks. I'd rather this element was brought in then moving all mining spots to sites.
To be fair, the "belts" in eve aren't really asteroid belts. The "asteroid belt" is an enormous ring of asteroids that orbits the entire system, Not little isolated blobs of asteroids like you see in Eve. Though personally I'd have no problems with the belts staying, though I'd like to see them procedurally generated.
Originally by: sYnc Vir
Also site require probing out, not everyone wants to probe crap out. Mining ship as it is dont have space for a probe launcher and given you already need an alt to fly an orca to mine any real sizable amount. A second alt for probing its just taking the ****. Not everyone has the time and money to train up alts for everything as Refining skills alone are bloody years worth of training.
Go into space. Open your scanner window. Go to the "probe" scanning tab. Click the scan button. Notice that, even though you don't have any probes out, it still scans. This was the scanner I was talking about; It's a short range (5 AU I believe) scanner which reveals major sites. That's the scanner I was talking about in the OP.

Egilmonsc
Minmatar
Massively Mob

Posted - 2010.12.05 14:35:00 - [35]
 

Supported~

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2010.12.06 18:15:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: sYnc Vir

You cant remove belts, they are a natural thing. Space without belts would just seem completely stupid. However belts are not the pieceful gentle things you get in eve. Belts are full of fast moving constantly colliding rocks. I'd rather this element was brought in then moving all mining spots to sites.



You've been watching too many mainstream science fiction films mate. In real life asteroids are typically separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometres and collisions occur on timescales of tens of millions of years.

In reply to the OP, I do support a mining revamp, although I personally prefer the minigame-style setup that others have suggested over your suggestions. I have only recently returned to Eve after a 4 year break and have very much been enjoying the PI and probe interfaces which require some thought rather than just the usual 'click and go back to watching TV' type things.

Voddick
Posted - 2010.12.07 02:03:00 - [37]
 

Yes Yes Yes!

Good ideas and mining does need an overhaul. Ice mining included--get rid of limitless macro infested fields. The EVE economy will survive.

Anna Ooze
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:32:00 - [38]
 

Supported.

Also, perhaps increase the rat intelligence in the belts / sites, to make it a bit more interesting. Add more of them, have them attack your drones, or your haulers frequently. Just so you actually can do something other than waiting.

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.07 03:49:00 - [39]
 

Good summary of ideas mooted in previous posts.

Would like to see the fact a survey scanner is being used leads to improvements - not just the fact the player has pressed a button but the player comes up with a plan -> follows the plan -> gets a reward for his interaction.

The best method I can think of for controlling bots would be to have a pitch of sound that varies according to how well the mining beams perform, a varying frequency to the mining beam yields better results. You could do this graphically but no doubt this would then be botted.

Lol,, or "Dont cross the streams" mechanic,, players should be able to spot this one easily, bots would struggle.

Would like to see roid belts absolutely huge - with some very large roids in there too - I used to love mining near small moons 8) and popping one used to be a goal to set yourself.

Would very much like to see roid belt rats in some regions be a lot stronger and require Hulks to be swapped for combat ships in highsec - why not ? Would be nice to see faction rats exploiting belts with their own bases in numbers rather than just flying doing very little in belts.

Please make this part of the game more fun 8)

M'ktakh
Posted - 2010.12.08 09:53:00 - [40]
 


Q Aa
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:51:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Q Aa on 31/12/2010 16:06:00
im to tierd to read more than the first post (been shooting people all night) but we do need a new mining system, i mean ive never talked with anyone that's a high SP miner that loves to do the actual mining... i have no ideas tho + im to tierd to raed what others write but probably some good tips for CCP in this thread

Jai Di
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.08 15:38:00 - [42]
 


Rommah
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:33:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Rommah on 08/12/2010 17:34:34
I agree AND disagree on this...
I disagree on not investing into your mining operation.
This will devalue the balance between piracy and industrialists. Something thats already hanging by a thread.
Making things needlessly complex? Perhaps no.. But Eve needs complexity. Just the type thats easily understood.
I do however agree that the current mining system MUST be tweaked to somehow make it interesting. I dont think adjusting yield values higher or lower is the answer though. Making it longer for you to travel between the rocks (if i understood you right) will do nothing but decrease the yield. Mindlessly flying between each rock also adds nothing but more pain to the whole thing...

About scanable sites, I think it would be better or more realistic to include giant roids instead of multiple little ones. This would make asteroid belts more realistic. You would still be able to "suck on fumes" of little roids to gather rarer ore perhaps? Another idea is the longer you spend mining one asteroid, the bigger and maybe better ore type yield.

There must be a better way to go about this?
Maybe making a mining interface somewhat interactive?

Jaik7
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:46:00 - [44]
 

as of now, i can run missions on my alt while i mine

fix that plz.

however, i like being able to warp to a belt by rclicking space, so leave that function in with your random belts.

Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises

Posted - 2010.12.08 22:15:00 - [45]
 

I'm flying a Maelstrom now and gave away my Hulk because mining in EVE is the most mindnumbingly boring thing I've ever done in a game.

So thumbs up for this proposal!!!

Vestrara Khai
Posted - 2010.12.10 21:15:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Vestrara Khai on 10/12/2010 22:31:34
I don't macro, but I run a couple mining alts at once. I'm in my chair at my computer mining with a friend or two. We chat, look up youtube videos with each other, anything really to keep us entertained while mining. The point is that we are actively mining, and yes its boring and painful. Mining needs an overhaul. The thing is that you can't make it too complicated otherwise you loose alot of non-macro accounts like my alts.


When anyone warps to roid belt without scanning they can see all the rocks that are there. They just can't see the amount thats in the rock, but they can make rough estimates based on the size of the rock and whats left in the belt.

Here is my change:

Make roid yeilds mixed and unknown. As in when you go to the belt you can see rocks sitting there but you can't tell the quality they are or what type they are. Yes the roid models will stay the same so an experienced miner will still be able to visually tell you what rocks are in the belt but not know the quality. Only by using a survey scanner can you tell the type, and quality of the rocks.

The second change would be to make regular belts have lower quality ores. To counter this have easily scannable sites with higher quality ore. Make it just hard enough to scan that a macro can't do it. Something harder then undock and warp to belt. Perhaps while scanning all the belts come up so macros don't know what belt is high yeild.

While this changes don't eliminate macro mining it does make it more profitable for actual players, and making it slightly more interactive. The key is to make small steps that don't shatter the eve-economy or completely stop macros all at once, but to reduce their effectiveness making them less profitable. That will put the isk back into the hands of the hard working miner, and it will keep the market prices stable aswell.

Niklas
Posted - 2010.12.11 03:22:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Niklas on 11/12/2010 03:53:15
A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, there was something known as EVE. The year? 2003.

Let me tell you a story about mining 0.0 during these long forgotten times. Picture, if you will, a landscape devoid of life. A landscape far beyond the colonized reaches of space. There were no Outposts. No POS. No conquerable stations. To get the valuable megacyte, you had to venture far, far out into deep space, many jumps from the nearest refinery.

In this mystical land, something else was very weird. You wanted to strike it rich mining that oh so valuable bistot and arkonor? Of course you did, who wouldn't? So you set sail out to the depths of nullsec, found a suitable asteroid belt, warped to it, and found...

Nothing. Not a rock, not a sign of life other than the occasional rat.

"Where is my precious ore?!" You screamed!

Those weak willed often gave up at this point, despondent at the lie of riches. Those with more fortitude and cleverness, however, might think to themselves that perhaps the ore is out there, and I simply cannot see it.

And so those people would fire up their faithful Dscan, activate it, and loe! Rocks! Plentiful and magnificent!

But where exactly?

And now the hunt began. Those without prior knowledge, who came solely to mine, were ill equipped for this trek, as the miner must first seek out his spoils before gathering them, and doing that required finesse with the scanner, and a very fast ship, for there were thousands, even tens of thousands of km of empty space to cross, while constantly checking their scanner and adjusting their course.

And so the way was made long, and the way was made difficult, but for those who truly wanted what 0.0 had to offer, it was possible.

The devs, in their infinite wisdom, ended up fixing the grid sizes, so there was no more need to actually hunt for your rocks, and shrank the belts to the size you see now, pale shadows of the behemoths they had once been.

This is probably well before almost all of you joined, as it only lasted 6 or 8 months after release before the 'fix' that ruined it and made mining the brainless drag n drop exercise it is now. But it was awesome. I want it back. The feeling of dscanning that rock down and taking that dual mwd punisher 10,000 km towards a reading that said only 'Arkonor' for 20 minutes or half an hour, and to finally emerge on the grid and see that lonely red rock set against the black backdrop of space, nothing else around for hundreds or thousands of km, then scanning it while crossing your fingers and hoping it wasn't a dud, was amazing.

I mined, those many years ago, in the FNXL-Q system. Long before IT owned it, or BOB before that, or CFS before that, or any alliance owned anything at all. It was empty space, with only a few corpies and the extremely occasional pirate stopping by. Every jet can of ore had to be taken up to Gehi through the A2 corridor, a 38(?) jump round trip(I was damned good at making Instas in those days). I'd bring up loads of ore, and bring back a hold full of giant cans to make my mini settlement in a safespot, where I also parked my scout punisher, and mining thorax(and later apoc) with a bay of harvies.

Good times. Paid for my first few battleships that way. Probably my favorite time in eve.


So how would I fix mining? I'd go back to that. Make the easy offerings in belts anemic compared to the riches beyond the grid, that you must scan for and fly to. And not the weak, easy probing, but actual dscan navigation, or at least a combination of the two, and even then, you won't know till you ore scan it if its worth wasting time on or not.

Plus it kills the bots without killing multiboxing, since you can scout while mining, but I'm betting a bot that dscans would be difficult.

Nevryn Takis
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:48:00 - [48]
 

I mine about 50% of my time and yes it tedious and yes it does need fixing..

I'd like to see some combination of hwat's been suggested already

1) keep the current belts but reduce the number of roids, and hence the ore volume and make 90% of them a mix of the two commonest ores
2) add a number of clusters than can be found with just the ship scanner or 1 probe - like the 100% auto lock anomalies. It's take about 2 minutes to go out scan these bookmark them then get your miner out. Put the less common ores into these clusters.
3) substantially increase the number of hidden belts and put better and rearer roids into the other combat type anomalies, so that to actually mine there you first need to kill the inhabiting angel/guritas/sansha defenders ... then add a variable timer so that having lost contact with their outpost they send some ships to investigate ... how much time have you got to get those high value roids. I bet 100% of veldspar/scordite/omber roids in most mission deds/cosmic deds never ever get mined

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:21:00 - [49]
 

Mining revamp is way overdue, supported.

Niyrah
Posted - 2010.12.11 15:26:00 - [50]
 

Get rid of belts...except for tiny rocks in n00b systems--and make them very rare in empire, a few more in low sec, and a few more in null. Scannable sites or mining missions for the rest.

Get rid of ice fields...they make no sense.

Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:47:00 - [51]
 

supported. mining shouldn't be an activity that feels like manually botting your own ship.

Burzrujat
Posted - 2010.12.14 03:09:00 - [52]
 


Velocifero
Posted - 2010.12.14 21:33:00 - [53]
 

Some good ideas here, but I don't know what the answer is, except that mining does indeed need sorting... until it happens, my WoW playing friends are always going to have a wildcard to jab me with. But tbh that's the least of my worries with mining mechanics.

/Support

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:35:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 14/12/2010 22:57:16

Most of your suggestion are aimed at penalizing group mining in favor of a single player mining alone.

No thanks.

Originally by: Black Dranzer
this is all low hanging fruit.


Removing static belts in favor of a large number of dynamic mining pockets isn't a low hanging fruit.

The advantage of the static belts is that the asteroids are always there as far as the server is concerned, always in the same location, the only difference is that sometime they have size zero (when depleted). That way the server hasn't the need to plot the location of every asteroids every time a new mining pocket is spawned.

It could certainly be implemented, but replacing each belt with several exploration sites in a way that will not make them disappear from the systems where they are regularly mined and "migrate" to rarely used systems and pile there in the hundreds (as it happens today with the explorations sites) is not something "easy" and done "rapidly", so it is far from a low hanging fruit.

This change could give us a better EVE for the single player (and a worse one for people that do corp level mining) but would require a lot of work to be balanced decently.


Originally by: sYnc Vir

You cant remove belts, they are a natural thing. Space without belts would just seem completely stupid. However belts are not the pieceful gentle things you get in eve. Belts are full of fast moving constantly colliding rocks. I'd rather this element was brought in then moving all mining spots to sites.



No, the asteroid belt is mostly empty space, on that the OP is right.

Quote:
Contrary to popular imagery, the asteroid belt is mostly empty. The asteroids are spread over such a large volume that it would be improbable to reach an asteroid without aiming carefully. Nonetheless, hundreds of thousands of asteroids are currently known, and the total number ranges in the millions or more, depending on the lower size cutoff. Over 200 asteroids are known to be larger than 100 km,[38] while a survey in the infrared wavelengths shows that the main belt has 700,000 to 1.7 million asteroids with a diameter of 1 km or more.[39] The apparent magnitudes of most of the known asteroids are 1119, with the median at about 16.[40]


Wiki Asteroid belts


Originally by: Niklas

So how would I fix mining? I'd go back to that. Make the easy offerings in belts anemic compared to the riches beyond the grid, that you must scan for and fly to. And not the weak, easy probing, but actual dscan navigation, or at least a combination of the two, and even then, you won't know till you ore scan it if its worth wasting time on or not.



Nice tale, but what could work in a universe with 2.000 concurrent users don't work in a universe with 50.000 concurrent users.

Your miner d-scanning the asteroids would be picked in seconds by any guy with a probe hunting for ships and the drop in mineral production will push most players in frigates while the "old guys" with plenty of ships in the hangars would be the untouchable rich.


Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:46:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Sir Drake on 14/12/2010 22:48:37
Isnt most of that already in planning by CCP?
Think i read a dev blog some time ago where they stated wanting to get rid of the static belts and only make them spawn as grav sites.
Would be nice to know in what stage that plan is.

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.12.14 23:12:00 - [56]
 

Good ideas.

Mining is awful and boring. It'd be kinda cool if it wasn't.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.12.15 01:21:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
It could certainly be implemented, but replacing each belt with several exploration sites in a way that will not make them disappear from the systems where they are regularly mined and "migrate" to rarely used systems and pile there in the hundreds (as it happens today with the explorations sites) is not something "easy" and done "rapidly", so it is far from a low hanging fruit.


Moving the belts to grav sites that are "static" to the system will be necessary to move away from the requirement for DT to reseed asteroid belts - unless the belts are reseeded at random times through the day, so all the macros need to do is keep warping to the belt and sucking up the new rocks as they appear.

Quote:
This change could give us a better EVE for the single player (and a worse one for people that do corp level mining) but would require a lot of work to be balanced decently.


Why do you say that? Requiring the mining fleet to have a dedicated scout due to the pockets of ore only sustaining six hulks for half an hour, would seem to me to be an ideal situation for corp-based activity. Get the rookie out with his probing ship checking out all the mining sites while the hulk pilots are pillaging rocks.

Quote:
Your miner d-scanning the asteroids would be picked in seconds by any guy with a probe hunting for ships and the drop in mineral production will push most players in frigates while the "old guys" with plenty of ships in the hangars would be the untouchable rich.


I remember the days when deadspace was actually "dead" and not only could you not warp into it, you would have a harder time probing into it too. Perhaps we need to reintroduce "deadspace" in order to make lowsec mining a little less like suicide? There are no warp disruptor bubbles in lowsec, so there's no way to lock down systems.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.15 09:12:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Venkul Mul
It could certainly be implemented, but replacing each belt with several exploration sites in a way that will not make them disappear from the systems where they are regularly mined and "migrate" to rarely used systems and pile there in the hundreds (as it happens today with the explorations sites) is not something "easy" and done "rapidly", so it is far from a low hanging fruit.


Moving the belts to grav sites that are "static" to the system will be necessary to move away from the requirement for DT to reseed asteroid belts - unless the belts are reseeded at random times through the day, so all the macros need to do is keep warping to the belt and sucking up the new rocks as they appear.


So we will be trading static belts for static grav sites? What will be the difference? Static is static, bookmark the site and it will be there forever.

And why you think that static grav sites would be better that static belts for DT?

Quote:
Quote:
This change could give us a better EVE for the single player (and a worse one for people that do corp level mining) but would require a lot of work to be balanced decently.


Why do you say that? Requiring the mining fleet to have a dedicated scout due to the pockets of ore only sustaining six hulks for half an hour, would seem to me to be an ideal situation for corp-based activity. Get the rookie out with his probing ship checking out all the mining sites while the hulk pilots are pillaging rocks.


Not the OP proposal.

Quote:
Using this system, perhaps instead of there being a fixed number of belts in a system, there could be smaller but more numerous asteroid clusters with varying ore types;Arrow Say, a dozen rocks per cluster.


"A dozen rocks" will last 1 cycle or 2 for 6 hulks and will make not worth it to warp the orca to the belt.

Quote:
Quote:
Your miner d-scanning the asteroids would be picked in seconds by any guy with a probe hunting for ships and the drop in mineral production will push most players in frigates while the "old guys" with plenty of ships in the hangars would be the untouchable rich.


I remember the days when deadspace was actually "dead" and not only could you not warp into it, you would have a harder time probing into it too. Perhaps we need to reintroduce "deadspace" in order to make lowsec mining a little less like suicide? There are no warp disruptor bubbles in lowsec, so there's no way to lock down systems.



That guy wasn't speaking of deadspace.

Having the gravimetrics (an other exploration sites) in a area of deadspace dampening the ship signature could be useful, but the problem is always static vs dynamic.

If it is static the player need to find it only once, then it will be bookmarked and any protection will be lost.

If it is dynamic the mechanic for seeding them should be redone as currently they have the tendency to cluster in unused systems and to shift toward the less interesting kinds of exploration sites.

For those that aren't aware of that mechanic: when you despawn a site a new, random, kind of site respawn in a random system with the same security status and the same kind of NPC rats.

As people generally complete only the "good" sites and leave alone those that aren't interesting to despawn in 3 days the effect is that:

1) if initially there were 1 site each in 10 systems and 5 systems are explored regularly while the others are explored very rarely after 1 cycle of exploration the statistical distribution will be: 5 (often explored) systems with 0.5 sites each and 5 rarely explored systems with 1.5 sites each, after 2 cycles it would be 0.25 and 1.75 and so on. The 3 day despawn rule will mitigate this a bit but there is a noticeable tendency for the exploration site to cluster in less used systems.

2) the kind of sites follow the same trend. They shift in the same fashion toward the less interesting sites.

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.12.15 10:53:00 - [59]
 

I've often wondered why mining missions given by mining corps dont give missions which are sites with more ore than that required to complete the mission.
Mining missions and especially mining missions from NPC mining corps, should give missions sites with ore to mine in excess of that required for the mission objective. If its a storyline mining mission and especially for a NPC mining corp, and even moreso if its a faction storyline, there should be ore at the mission site to mine.
I switched to mining combat mission sites rather than belts.
as long as ore/sec status ratios dont change, anything to improve mining would be good.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service

Posted - 2010.12.15 11:15:00 - [60]
 

Like it. Wish there was already a system in place to make asteroid rings around planets/stars possible.


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