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blankseplocked POS's in Wormholes - ruining the fun of exploration.
 
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Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.11.20 20:44:00 - [1]
 

I remember when Apocrypha launched, how exciting it was to explore a wormhole. Dangers were everywhere, and any moment, you might be set upon by Sleepers, another explorer, or even lose your way out. But it was worth it, because you had the sense that no one had ever seen what you were seeing, and that sense of danger just made your efforts to extract the wealth within these mysterious locales all the more exciting. This was exactly what CCP had promised us: a continuing adventure into hostile territory with no backup.

Fast forward to today. The sense of adventure is gone, since a single scan will show approximately 53 ships on the overview. The ability to mount an expedition is gone - four times out of five, the denizens of the wormhole have already mined out any resources, along with any anomalies. T3 ships are nearly as inexpensive as a pair of t2 cruisers, and wormhole space has basically become secondary null-sec, with corporations and alliances claiming territory and bubbling every entrance and exit. It's static, dull, and, worst of all, boring.

You can no longer jump from wormhole to wormhole, seeing where you'll end up next, because someone will have bubbled it, and you'll die. You can't bring in some friends to go look for sites, because they're largely harvested and defended to the death by the denizens of the wormhole. It's difficult to attack without days of moving people into the wormhole, because POS's are insanely tough to take down without a large fleet.

My argument is that POS's and bubbles need to be removed from wormholes, at least classes 1-4, but preferably all. They are not currently serving the purpose CCP designed for them, but instead are monopolized by a few corporations whose ability to defend them is magnified by the unique structure of wormhole access.

CCP needs to make wormholes what they intended them to be - isolated, scary places that you adventure into, and hopefully, back out of, preferably with large bags of loot. What they shouldn't do is allow them to be used a giant, ultra-safe piggy banks, which is their current function.

CCP, please remove POS's and bubbles from wormholes.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.11.20 20:55:00 - [2]
 

living out of a pos is hard enough, how do you suggest should people, who want to stay longer in a wormhole, live? where should they store stuff?

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.20 21:14:00 - [3]
 

every day in a wh is an adventure. even more so if you have a pos. also no where anywhere did ccp say that these wh systems were not to be occupied. I have asked them many times about matters of wh occupation and what I can and cannot do and 1 thing for sure was that you can settle any system you want at your own risk. and I assure you there is high risk in setting up and maintaining a pos. it also takes a huge amount of investment and time to make it work. my wh took 6 months to start making a profit and we have been attacked many times almost loosing our pos. 4 bs and some days off almost cost us dearly.

you yourself explore from your safe haven in high/lowsec/0.0 were as, people in pos's are out there on there own. no support fleets round the corner. everything is on the line. loose that pos and you loose everything. its different play styles. just because there is a pos doesnt make it much different. we would still enter the wh scan out all exits and blockade them then move guys in the pawn all the sites then move on so it makes no difference.

u should try it. it might renew some of the exitement and danger for you




Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.11.21 08:29:00 - [4]
 

It certainly would lend excitement to WH space if POSs could not last long or if perhaps sleepers would eventually find and attack them.

The worst thing about them is looking at them on D-scan. I have seen POSs in Class 1 through 3 WHs bristling with enough weaponry that would make Darth Vader cringe. The term "worm bear" comes to mind.

Oh well.


Does not stop me though.



Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2010.11.21 13:11:00 - [5]
 

Have seen/worked with the po thing and it is lol easy. Longer you are in, easier it gets. Start building cap ships and wormhole is inpenetrable in the lower class ones which is all small explorer corps like mine had the pilots to do. There is nothing wrong with the pos itself, it is the duration. Large yield wormholes, we would bring a pos "tent" in with fuel for a week or two. Have fun, then move on. But wormholes are carebear 0.0 now. My idea for a solution was sleepers attacking poses. Longer you are in, the stronger and more frequent the seige. Only makes sense sleepers should fight back. It makes sense.

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.21 13:20:00 - [6]
 

Would only work if the pos attacking sleepers are without bounty and drop no loot (no salvage on wreaks too) otherwise it turns into some extra income.

Mehrune Khan
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.21 13:33:00 - [7]
 

I remember when they introduced wormholes and I thought it would be a great idea for introducing exploration to EVE. Then everyone got into this rush to set up POS's in there and claim territory, and I couldn't understand why. I got into arguments with people asking them why you would do that, since it defeats the intended purpose of this game mechanic.

As things are, wormholes are no different than nullsec. There was no point in implementing it like this, since most players simply won't explore an area of space that is fortified. I think that CCP should never have allowed anchorable structures in wormholes, and if you want to mine there, you should bring an orca and carry your ore out.

This did nothing to change the status quo. A handful of powerful people control lawless territory, and everyone else stays in the cluster**** in highsec. If CCP wants people to get out and explore, they need to create an area where people can't "claim" territory, and that's what they really should have done with wormholes.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.11.21 13:37:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mehrune Khan


This did nothing to change the status quo. A handful of powerful people control lawless territory, and everyone else stays in the cluster**** in highsec. If CCP wants people to get out and explore, they need to create an area where people can't "claim" territory, and that's what they really should have done with wormholes.


This is patently false. I see tons of small corps in WH space that wouldn't stand a chance in traditional nullsec. If you want an area where you can't claim systems, there's this section of space I'd like to introduce you too - it's called Lowsec. Have a ball.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:06:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Covert Kitty on 21/11/2010 23:16:51
Quote:
Dangers were everywhere, and any moment, you might be set upon by Sleepers

If "any moment" means scanning the sites down and warping to them.. then yes, and thats how it still is. There were rumors before the expansion came out that sleepers would go to the wormholes, attack pos's etc etc, thats never been true however.

Quote:
If CCP wants people to get out and explore, they need to create an area where people can't "claim" territory, and that's what they really should have done with wormholes.

Thats exactly what Lowsec and NPC Nullsec are. Wormholes on the other hand are different and imo, it's like sov for small corps. You can have a very real home and be assured that you won't be insta ****d by a giant blob of capital ships.

Quote:
You can no longer jump from wormhole to wormhole, seeing where you'll end up next, because someone will have bubbled it, and you'll die

This statement is basically entirely incorrect. Don't let your perception of wormholes be tainted by your own inexperience. I've lived in wormholes for almost a year now, it's very rare to see a wormhole thats bubbled, keep in mind most wormholes only last 12-24 hrs, so unless there has been recent aggression your not going to find anchored bubbles. People generally prefer hic's for that anyway, and usually people clean up their bubbles once there done, they do live there afterall they don't want random bubbles cluttering up their scan.

Wormholes in my opinion are one of the best things CCP has come up with, its an absolutely fantastic concept and implementation and I'm still saying that after a year of experience.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:12:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 21/11/2010 23:13:09
I think you want Low Sec Exploration. It describes everything you are looking for...

Also, while I've only lived in a wh for about 2 months, I can honestly say 1/2 of all hole I explore are unoccupied, or have dead towers (a real bane).

Are you really exploring or just hearing and perhaps having a bad experience or two.

There are 2500 Wh systems, almost There are roughly 5500 k-space systems. I think its still a pretty big space.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.11.22 00:09:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 21/11/2010 23:13:09
I think you want Low Sec Exploration. It describes everything you are looking for...

Also, while I've only lived in a wh for about 2 months, I can honestly say 1/2 of all hole I explore are unoccupied, or have dead towers (a real bane).

Are you really exploring or just hearing and perhaps having a bad experience or two.

There are 2500 Wh systems, almost There are roughly 5500 k-space systems. I think its still a pretty big space.



Why are dead towers a "real bane"? Just curious. Seen a few myself but never regarded them much.



De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.11.22 00:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 21/11/2010 23:13:09
I think you want Low Sec Exploration. It describes everything you are looking for...

Also, while I've only lived in a wh for about 2 months, I can honestly say 1/2 of all hole I explore are unoccupied, or have dead towers (a real bane).

Are you really exploring or just hearing and perhaps having a bad experience or two.

There are 2500 Wh systems, almost There are roughly 5500 k-space systems. I think its still a pretty big space.



Why are dead towers a "real bane"? Just curious. Seen a few myself but never regarded them much.





Mostly because you have to kill it before you can put up your own. I've seen empty systems with as many as three dead POS's

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.11.22 03:57:00 - [13]
 

+1, need a wild west somewhere.

Low sec is pointless. No real benefit to anyone except as a place to stick your pirate alt and camp a gate.

Null sec is full of group bears. Too scared to fight anyone without a fleet.

Wormholes are full of POS and people since you can 'live' in the wormhole. They were supposed to be explored and exploited and then left. Not made cosy and homely. They are just miniature versions of 0.0 space.

Be nice to have some systems that are wild. With the occasional person crossing your path. This promotes chance pvp encounters that are balanced towards fun rather then gank. Who would camp a remote system with only the occasional person when they could go skillessly gank a more trafficked area?

Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.22 09:00:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Wormholes are full of POS and people since you can 'live' in the wormhole. They were supposed to be explored and exploited and then left. Not made cosy and homely. They are just miniature versions of 0.0 space.


The introduction of WH's was the best Buff to Small/Medium Corporations given the fact that you don't have to listen to the constant Whine of NullSec Politics, small/medium corporations can get a foothold in a WH without the fear of instant retribution from the big alliances. Put up a POS in a WH and you can be lucky and not seen anyone for Days/Weeks/Months, try doing the same in NullSec, that POS will be turned to dust in under a week Guaranteed.

KaiserSoze434
Posted - 2010.11.22 09:23:00 - [15]
 

WH space is fine. I would support more erratic actions by sleepers just to make it fun. Perhaps a mechanic like they're doing with incursions. But not to discourage anything, just to make it more interesting. I've lived in WHs for months and there are plenty of empties out there. Not to mention when I find an occupied wh closeby I don't just tuck my balls between my legs and post a complaint in features and ideas. I take a hard look at what they're doing and run their sites if I think I can manage it. Anyone that says CCP designed class 3 and up WHs for people just to mosey on in, screw around, and back out is insane. The wild west anaolgy is just stupid. They had forts in the wild west and thats just what a POS is.

Oh, and my corp that is "monopolizing" wh space has 3 guys in it. You guys complain that you can't find small fleet action without getting blobbed or do anything unless you're in a mega-alliance, but the answer is right there for you.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.11.22 13:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: KaiserSoze434
WH space is fine. I would support more erratic actions by sleepers just to make it fun. Perhaps a mechanic like they're doing with incursions. But not to discourage anything, just to make it more interesting. I've lived in WHs for months and there are plenty of empties out there. Not to mention when I find an occupied wh closeby I don't just tuck my balls between my legs and post a complaint in features and ideas. I take a hard look at what they're doing and run their sites if I think I can manage it. Anyone that says CCP designed class 3 and up WHs for people just to mosey on in, screw around, and back out is insane. The wild west anaolgy is just stupid. They had forts in the wild west and thats just what a POS is.

Oh, and my corp that is "monopolizing" wh space has 3 guys in it. You guys complain that you can't find small fleet action without getting blobbed or do anything unless you're in a mega-alliance, but the answer is right there for you.

There used to be plenty of empties in 0.0 too. You are just repeating the process all over again. Eventually your 3 man corp will be 'asked to leave' when someone bigger comes along and decides they like it more then you. Eventually they will all be claimed and your 3 man corp won't have a chance in hell of taking one back.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2010.11.22 15:13:00 - [17]
 

Saw the comments about lowsec explore instead, and it is fail too of late. Don't know why exactly but perhaps there is finite exploration sites. Summation, other day went scanning for in exess of an hour. All I found was dozens of wormholes and a couple anomalies. Would have been great if the wormholes didn't have heavy pos activity

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:30:00 - [18]
 

What's the point of colonization and exploration if you cannot set up a base from which to colonize and explore?

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:11:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Magnus Orin
What's the point of colonization and exploration if you cannot set up a base from which to colonize and explore?
The issue isn't so much the colonies, it is that there is all the economical boons of 0.0 that does not require sov. However, it is much more difficult to take out somebody. Heck a successful wormhole takeover is considered newsworthy. Even with the site spawn changes, there are so many, it doesn't make much difference. The value of wormhole systems need more risk to offset reward of pos camping. If there was risk to the poses that required active play to control, it would free up more for exploration. Either that or give Kspace more for explorers.

Lord Dralos
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:30:00 - [20]
 


Sounds to me like you guys are moaning about someone else beating you to the punch, there is tactics to claiming a wh off another corp you know first option is to pvp with them pod them collapse the exsisting whs to allow for new whs to appear then bring in your own guys to take the pos apart :).
There lots of exploration and danger for you if your brave enough Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil you could even setup your own pos and do the same thing.

Asarus Atreyu
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lord Dralos

Sounds to me like you guys are moaning about someone else beating you to the punch, there is tactics to claiming a wh off another corp you know first option is to pvp with them pod them collapse the exsisting whs to allow for new whs to appear then bring in your own guys to take the pos apart :).


Amen, many, many bubbles...

We evicted (and then sold!) a C3 corp last week by this method.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.11.23 00:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lord Dralos

Sounds to me like you guys are moaning about someone else beating you to the punch, there is tactics to claiming a wh off another corp you know first option is to pvp with them pod them collapse the exsisting whs to allow for new whs to appear then bring in your own guys to take the pos apart :).
There lots of exploration and danger for you if your brave enough Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil you could even setup your own pos and do the same thing.

Has nothing to do with jealousy. I'd rather poke hot needles in my eyeballs then setup a pos. More to do with variety. 5000 claimable systems roughly without claiming wormhole space as well. Plenty. Not everything needs to be the same old same old boring sov / corp / alliance ownership crap.

Areas that are wild and unclaimable would be nice to explore and hunt in.


Ragedman
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.23 05:35:00 - [23]
 

You can't claim NPC 0.0 and nobody can kick you out. Go there. . .

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.23 05:43:00 - [24]
 

there is no ownership but there are poses which can be defended. So they do have their own sepeerate strategic advantages and disadvantgages nothing stopping anyone from moving into a wh and attacking the residents either through site removal or harassment

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.11.23 06:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 23/11/2010 06:01:57
Originally by: Ragedman
You can't claim NPC 0.0 and nobody can kick you out. Go there. . .

npc 0.0 is lowsec with a different name. Hardly deserted or feels deserted.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.23 06:34:00 - [26]
 

low sec is more deserted since ccp keeps nerfing it than 00

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.11.24 08:09:00 - [27]
 

So the general consensus is that there is no "wild west" or to be more cosmopolitan, "outland" in Eve.


A sprinkling of wormholes in systems that are too unstable for anchoring, yet perhaps even more reason to be there (like new sites with new clues and loots) would be perfect for this. People will seek them out and take more risks to get there, maintain any entrance there (but it would be good if they never had "statics"), and get as much as possible before collapse or worse.

Such should also be the only systems that allow "deep safes".

What's really lacking here is that deep space feel. Unfortunately this is not a deep space exploration game. It's all about what it presently is about, taking space, holding it, exploiting it to build ships, and messing up others trying to do the same thing. It's a huge space, but not big enough for many reasons. There is a mix of OOC goals like killmail addiction and fake piracy that amounts to griefplay, and to operate under that requires the group up thing. Not really big space considering those factors. CCP took a very large gaming universe and made it very small with politics and game mechanics.


I have yet to know a WH explorer who complained about a POS getting in the way of preventing them from putting one in, because the explorers of this game (that most hated lone wolf and small gang activity) are seldom interested in POSs. Who would cross oceans and vast forests just to find one right hill to build a cabin on and then live in it in total boredom for the rest of their lives? If that was the goal to start with, no problem, but explorers don't go into that WH with the goal of staying there.


I think that WH dwellers should get the opportunity to build gates in "their" system and then claim SOV. Reason for this is not to destroy WH space but to lend honesty to the game. A strip-malled WH system should become just like any other 0.0 space so it stops being a WH system. Otherwise it's like those housing developments where they leave one oak tree standing and then call the place "Oak Forest Hills" or something like that.




 

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