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Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.11.18 20:51:00 - [1]
 

Ok, I am a bit confused...

The ar rep bonus to both ships is pretty much the same, and the tracking link bonus seems more usable then the cap transfer, why is the guardian the top dog in remote ar repping?

I'm thinking about adding logistics to my list of ships but I am not sure I want to train up amarr ships at this time.

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.11.18 20:59:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Footoo Rama
and the tracking link bonus seems more usable then the cap transfer
The guardian is more popular because the cap transfer is more useable. Pairs of guardians feeding eachother cap never run dry.

iKill Giants
Eternal Phoenix Rises
Posted - 2010.11.18 21:02:00 - [3]
 

Because two out of three commonly used PvP races require capacitor to fire, and most PvP fits are unstable. And tracking ceases to matter much when you blob. As long enough people are hitting, it will die.

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.18 21:05:00 - [4]
 

Pretty simple reason.
With only 1 logistic on the team the ships are pretty much equal BUT once you have 2+ Guardians on the team they can link up their cap transfers and create huge amounts of cap!

Guardian (max skill) gives 351 cap with a Large Engergy Transfer Array 2 while only using 69 cap, link 2 Guardian and each gets 282 cap.
Use 2 cap modules on each and goodbye cap worries.

Amarrbone
Posted - 2010.11.18 21:37:00 - [5]
 

Also like to add that any single Large Energy transfer mod from any ship is enough to keep a Guardian running. It is not uncommon to see something like a Dominix or Phoon feeding one Large Transfer to a Guardian and the Guardian feeding one back to the ship plus 2-3 reppers. Same goes for a Basilisk when it comes to shield ships for PvE thingies. I've seen a CNR/Basi combo that does very nice things.

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.11.18 22:12:00 - [6]
 

Thanks guys, I figured it was something with the cap transfer with 2 ships plus bonus. I suspected that with only 1 logi in the fleet they where pretty much a wash.

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.11.19 00:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Footoo Rama
Thanks guys, I figured it was something with the cap transfer with 2 ships plus bonus. I suspected that with only 1 logi in the fleet they where pretty much a wash.
You never try to go with only 1 logi, because who reps the repper then? Enemy primaries logi, now you're a fleet without logi.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.19 00:44:00 - [8]
 

Ideally the logi's at range though, and runs/dies buying time for the rest. It's not like your mates should just be sitting there watching you pop before shooting. Wink

chrisss0r
The Lowbirds
Posted - 2010.11.19 01:57:00 - [9]
 

guardian:

smaller sig
better resists layout
more reps

thxbye

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:48:00 - [10]
 

Gaurdians still need a cap buddy, which is good and bad (good that they have cap txfers for other ships, bad that they need a buddy) They also have more EHP.

Oenirisisissi dont need a cap buddy, have less total EHP, but waaay better kinetic resists, which make them a better choice (usually) against the drake blob.


An alliance will take either, with a preference for guards.

FireT
Gallente
Royal Advanced Industries
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2010.11.19 03:31:00 - [11]
 

Honestly, Oneiros can be piloted by himself, use all 4 large RRs (with max skills) and still be cap stable and have an armor tank.
While a Guardian needs more support by another pilot.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.19 04:39:00 - [12]
 

Tracking link bonuses are one step shy of useless. Then again, the Oneiros has more mids, and that's *not* useless - it lets you fit ECCMs or a shield tank. Either way I still prefer the Guardian or Scimitar. I dislike the Ony and Basilisk.

I might dislike the Basilisk because it reminds me of POS repping. Just to be fair.

-Liang

Haseo Arashi
Posted - 2010.11.19 10:04:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Haseo Arashi

To clearify. 2 guardians > 2 (probably even 3) oneiros
Guardians on the. Other hand suck ass alone. As a cap stable guardian will have probably half the repping abiility of 1 oneiros.

However when 2 guardians. Cap chain. They have pretty much unlimited cap and can perma run 2_3 reppers and 1-2 cap transfer.

Futther in fleets cap trans will keep your people fighting for long durations (ie structure bashing)

where as oneiros have tracking links. (They suck in fleets by the way)

So I'm not saying oneiros are useless (entirely) just that for fleets guardians dominate.

Now for small gangs oneiros are great for the same reaon scimis are desired over basilisks in fast moving drake gangs. (Ill leeave the rest for you to decide)


From the exact same topic as last week.
search ftw.

Kalnov
Gallente
Broski Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.19 10:05:00 - [14]
 

Essentially everyone flies the Guardian because it has infinite cap with a buddy and Amarr Cruiser 5 is commonly trained for.

Key word here being buddy. The same concept applies to Scimitar/Basilisk.

Oneiros/Scimitar > Guardian/Basilisk if there is only one person who can fly a logi.

Guardian/Basilisk > Oneiros/Scimitar if there are one or more people able to fly logis (and both ships). due to the ability to have infinite cap through cap transfer.

Oneiros is particularly weird because it's really hard to fit a usable armor tanked fit. As a result I shield tank mine. However, I would argue that it has a better resist profile than Guardian. Sure, there's an explosive hole, but how many things shoot explosve? The answer is very few.

Something to think about though: If you armor tank an Oneiros it can fit Tracking Links and then you can team up with Scorch Abaddons or Tachybaddons for a fun gimmick fleet.

The reason you don't see many Basilisks is that you don't get many good ships with Caldari Cruiser 5. You get a LOT of good ships with Minmatar Cruiser 5. Same with Amarr/Gallente.

Doctor Alban
Posted - 2010.11.19 10:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kalnov
Essentially everyone flies the Guardian because it has infinite cap with a buddy and Amarr Cruiser 5 is commonly trained for.

Key word here being buddy. The same concept applies to Scimitar/Basilisk.

Oneiros/Scimitar > Guardian/Basilisk if there is only one person who can fly a logi.

Guardian/Basilisk > Oneiros/Scimitar if there are one or more people able to fly logis (and both ships). due to the ability to have infinite cap through cap transfer.

Oneiros is particularly weird because it's really hard to fit a usable armor tanked fit. As a result I shield tank mine. However, I would argue that it has a better resist profile than Guardian. Sure, there's an explosive hole, but how many things shoot explosve? The answer is very few.

Something to think about though: If you armor tank an Oneiros it can fit Tracking Links and then you can team up with Scorch Abaddons or Tachybaddons for a fun gimmick fleet.

The reason you don't see many Basilisks is that you don't get many good ships with Caldari Cruiser 5. You get a LOT of good ships with Minmatar Cruiser 5. Same with Amarr/Gallente.


Well, for PvE there is a great ship which you get with Caldari Cruiser 5, and for PvP there are some which are not completely useless in their roles. Agreed though, for combat PvP Caldari needs only Cruiser 3 and BC on 5, since there is no other ship which can really compete with the other races than Drake :D

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.11.19 19:42:00 - [16]
 

With regards to the tracking links being useless....

Considering AB AHAC gangs seem to be all the rage right now b/c BS ships have an issue hitting them.... wouldn't those tracking links be beneficial to a close range fit BS fleet? Just wondering. Question

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.11.19 19:51:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
Originally by: Footoo Rama
Thanks guys, I figured it was something with the cap transfer with 2 ships plus bonus. I suspected that with only 1 logi in the fleet they where pretty much a wash.
You never try to go with only 1 logi, because who reps the repper then? Enemy primaries logi, now you're a fleet without logi.


But you do at least have a chance of getting away with it with a Scimitar - which is small, fast and agile.
Oneiros technically has the same slot layout as the scimi, just armour focussed, but ... well, it's fatter, slower, and that slot layout seems to indicate shield tanking.
So it's not bad, exactly, it's just the scimitar is better, and it's very important when the ship is alone - and vulnerable.
If you have more than one logistics, you want cap transfers, because then you can tank more. Which means the Basilisk or Guardian, and ... well, often teh kind of fleet you're bringing multiple logistics to, are going to be armour centric.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.19 19:58:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: iKill Giants
Because two out of three commonly used PvP races require capacitor to fire, and most PvP fits are unstable. And tracking ceases to matter much when you blob. As long enough people are hitting, it will die.

For pvp guardians wont feed anything except other guardians with only few exceptions. Only in PvS (player vs structure) it is very handy you can feed cap to amarr and gallente.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.20 02:13:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Considering AB AHAC gangs seem to be all the rage right now b/c BS ships have an issue hitting them.... wouldn't those tracking links be beneficial to a close range fit BS fleet? Just wondering. Question


I've found them to be much much more useful for range than for tracking. Even with pretty spectacular tracking (for a battleship), you'll still have trouble hitting cruisers. For instance, 425mm ACs have ~8x the tracking of D650s...

-Liang

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.11.20 08:30:00 - [20]
 

Speaking of bonuses why do people complain that a 45% more tracking on a 82km range isn't useful, how much should it be to be considered useful 200% ?

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2010.11.20 11:00:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Tracking link bonuses are one step shy of useless. Then again, the Oneiros has more mids, and that's *not* useless - it lets you fit ECCMs or a shield tank. Either way I still prefer the Guardian or Scimitar. I dislike the Ony and Basilisk.

I might dislike the Basilisk because it reminds me of POS repping. Just to be fair.

-Liang


You probably dislike the Basilisk because there are few shield-oriented gangs with staying power and a necessity for cap-transfer outside the logi-chain. By comparison, any AHAC, BS (or even Capital) environment is more reliant on cap than your typical Drake gang.

As with most things, the norm has become tanky armor and nimble shield, which makes Amarr and Minmatar generally preferenced. You can find a place for both the Oneiros and the Basilisk, but in general an armor gang is better served by tanky/focused Guardians and a shield gang is better served by nimble/flexible Scimis. Nimble/flexible armor and tanky/focused shield become peripheral choices to achieve something unusual (either unusual - poor, or unusual - ingenious). Short said, you bring an Oneiros if you can find a use for those extra midslots and larger drone-bay (above tank), you bring a Basilisk if you can find a use for cap transfer (above essentially everything else).

I have seen both the Oneiros and Basilisk used creatively with exciting results.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:39:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: FireT
Honestly, Oneiros can be piloted by himself, use all 4 large RRs (with max skills) and still be cap stable and have an armor tank.
While a Guardian needs more support by another pilot.


This is exactly what I do as well.

Personally, I think any pilot who really wishes to do well in logistics needs to get max skills. It takes a while, but that last level of Logistics is the difference between needing that cap transfer on you or not.

The Guardian/Basilisk seem to be preferred for the cap transfer, though I like tossing in an Onieros for gatecamps. You can run 4x large repairers, medium repair drones, and a pair of tracking links, paired with a satisfactory buffer tank and and AB. The tracking link can enable your snipers to hit with higher damage ammo from further out than they would have normally. Works best on Malestroms and Tempests.

Someone else mentioned that someone needs to repair the logistics ship, or lose it. In PvP if someone's close enough to kill the logistics (as someone else mentioned, they should be operating at the edge range of their repair beams anyways) it's going to happen rather quick, or not at all. But regardless, any time the enemy is firing on the logistics, it's time they're not firing at your battle line. So a logi pilot should be behind his own ships, at range, maneuvering perpendicular to the enemy to keep his traversal up. Done right, he shouldn't be taking too much fire and have plenty of time to warp out if the enemy's cruisers and 'ceptors get into range. Warp out, warp back, rinse and repeat. With luck they'll be too focused trying to nail down one cruiser and not enough on the ships actually doing damage to them...

Niclas Solo
Amarr
Love n Peace
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: FireT
Honestly, Oneiros can be piloted by himself, use all 4 large RRs (with max skills) and still be cap stable and have an armor tank.
While a Guardian needs more support by another pilot.


My guardian alt can run her 4 reps for 5+ min and she only got logi 4 atm, a week from logi 5 and then she i cap stable at 100% for as long as i got cap boosters and that should be about the same :) 5 min. But what solo fight last longer then that?

Originally by: Baneken
Speaking of bonuses why do people complain that a 45% more tracking on a 82km range isn't useful, how much should it be to be considered useful 200% ?


It is a logistic ship if it run out of cap it's useless, a team of guardians can't run our of cap that's why they are better, it have nothing to do with the tracking bonus being useless.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:43:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Niclas Solo

My guardian alt can run her 4 reps for 5+ min and she only got logi 4 atm, a week from logi 5 and then she i cap stable at 100% for as long as i got cap boosters and that should be about the same :) 5 min. But what solo fight last longer then that?



Good point. I hate being dependent on cap boosters for recharge, but assuming you've got 5 minutes that should be more than enough.

Only instance I can think of where you might need more than that is if you're sieging a POS. Most Amarr and Gallente fits can't sustain all 7-8 guns with high dmg ammo going for a half hour on end, and I've seen that it's nice to have a cap transfer logi on station to top off their tanks as they slowly run dry.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.11.23 06:40:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus

You probably dislike the Basilisk because there are few shield-oriented gangs with staying power and a necessity for cap-transfer outside the logi-chain. By comparison, any AHAC, BS (or even Capital) environment is more reliant on cap than your typical Drake gang.



I'm pretty sure that I dislike the Basilisk because:
- It reminds me of POS repping. I hate POS repping.
- It requires a buddy to be really effective (I traditionally don't fly in gangs big enough to warrant 2 logistics)
- It's about as agile as a brick, and with two lows you can't do much about it.
- There's some fitting issue with it... I don't remember what it is. I think its grid though.

Quote:
I have seen both the Oneiros and Basilisk used creatively with exciting results.


Sure - me too. Hell, I've used them both with fairly convincing results. Doesn't mean I like the Basilisk, and it doesn't mean that the tracking link bonuses on the Ony/Scim aren't one step shy of useless.

-Liang


 

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