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blankseplocked Defeating MSE/AB Rifters. Solo Frig fights.
 
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Dark Voynix
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.11.19 15:47:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Dark Voynix on 19/11/2010 15:48:41
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
And there is a distance point where maxed skilled projectiles (with barrage) on a merlin do more damage than blasters (with null) always on the merlin. This distance is close to 7.3 km that is below t2 scrambling range so you don't even need to overload ( the scambler).


Now you're talking. Yes, beyond about 7.5 km Barrage does more damage than Null Merlin. Closer in, it's Null all the way. And 75 mm rails outdamage Barrage from ~3.5 km all the way to 10 km - neglecting tracking, which isn't unreasonable for a ship trying to maintain range.

I'm not saying that Barrage/ACs is a silly choice on the Merlin - they give respectable performance from 0-10 km without any worries about cap and are pretty easy to fit. But your original point was "the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids". Well, they do get a bonus, it is valuable and it translates into a damage bonus large enough that at any particular range <10 km one of Null or 75 mm rails will be doing more damage than Barrage.


Dude i don't know how many times i repeated that im not saying that hybrid are bad.
Now seems that both of us agreed that both are viable ( at least that ).

When i said "the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids" you should read also the other things i wrote. I meant that this bonus don't neglect other choices.

If other options without this "bonus" are equally good means exacly that this is not a faction to chose blaster over different solutions. Saying the same thing in different way. If another unbonused solution is as good as the blaster one, this bonus is not really a bonus, at least meant as "if you don't use it , you loose something".

The setup i quoted was a total crap because any noobship with mwd and long range point would kill him ( ok, ok, i know ... its quite hard to encounter a noob ship with those 2 med slots :D , but you know what i mean). Projectiles do respectable damage at close range ( not like blasters, but still good) , but can also hit over 15km distance. Without switching from blaster to 75mm rails.

Fights don't start and end at a fixed range. Distance vary and people go closer/farer depending what they want to do, and the excellent projectile range effectiveness could cause a lot of damage even before a blaster ship succeed to come too close ( IF he succeed to come close Rolling Eyes)

The whole first post was made to explain that the optimal bonus is not the reason why someone should use blasters. Blaster at close range are better anyway. bonus or not bonus, and THIS FACT is the reason to use them. The 250 meter difference with antimater or 600(?)meter difference with null are not that critical when chosing between blasters and autocannons.

I agree that between having this bonus and not having make a little difference , but is exacly that, a LITTLE difference. Mostly in the range of 2,5-3,5 km (if using null). Closer to this range this bonus in irrilevant ( you are in optimal anyway) and at longer distance the falloff faction becomes preponderant and farer you go, letter the optimal "bonus" is useful.

Summing if few words all i said in the previous posts:
You don't need to use blaster because of the bonus. You can use it because the have no rivals at optimal range( even not counting on the optimal bonus), but you can also use different solution because the are even better in different situation. The pure bonus really cont only if people are at 2-3km distance so don't help the choice because people or are approaching so they will end in optimal anyway, or the guy is escaping and will be far enough that the optimal difference don't count anyway..

I have never seen someone orbiting at 3km ....

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.11.19 16:02:00 - [32]
 

Feel free to fit even lasers if you want. If you are able to control range - you should be if he has no web - and put out more dps at 7-8k, you should win.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2010.11.19 18:55:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/11/2010 18:57:05

Originally by: Dorian Tormak
I think you mean hes calling me incompetent. and if ur right then hes a ****** :)

inb4 "l00k at his KB stats"


He is right though, your setup would die in a horrible fire against cookie cutter MSE rifter.


As far as OP question goes, use AB/web/scram/MSE fit, guns dont really matter, can be 75mm rails, 125mm rails, neutron blasters with null or even 200mm ACs with barrage.

Kite him at about 7-8km, forces him to use barrage and thus attack your best resist as well as it helps avoiding neuts which could shut down your range control and/or your guns.

Depending on your choice of gun type, you end up with at least equal damage output as the rifter or more, while you have a comfortable advantage in buffer. The 75mm rail suggested above would be your best bet all things considered.

Told you something to this effect after our little fight IIRC Wink

Captain Nares
Posted - 2010.11.19 20:14:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Natasha Fury

[Merlin, Nubbins]


Merlin with AC's/pulse lasers is great, and it will be only better after rocket boost. Fit u've posted is standard & good exept omgwtfhowucametothisidea ammo in AC's... use EMP/PP/Fusion/Barrage.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.11.19 21:16:00 - [35]
 

Can't point him, but it can sure make him run away, bring some tackle and he's done for provided you don't !#$% up and jam your friendly.

Should be about 126 dps after the upcoming rocket boost with CN Thorns out to 10.1 km minus wasted travel per regular rocket mechanics. Javelins out to 15.2 km. Rage out to 9.1 km. 5702 EHP Omnitank with 22 sustained defence efficiency, multispec Jam strength of 9 out to 9+6. 933 m/s top speed. All that without overheating. It can run everything for 1 min 25 secs or is cap stable with the ecm burst off which works since you can turn it off after a successful jam for 20 secs.

[Kestrel, Rocket DPS & Tank]
Micro B66 Core Augmentation
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Extender II
ECM Burst II

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I


Natasha Fury
Posted - 2010.11.19 22:47:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zyress
Kessie with no web and point.


Thank you for the fit, but I kinda wanted to kill him.Smile

Led Zeppelin420
Posted - 2010.11.20 01:02:00 - [37]
 

Id use a kestrel with standard missiles and targeting range damps. Or if that didnt work like someone said above, a griffin, setup up to jam minmitar only. with multiple jammers u could easily keep him jammed full time. web and scram him hell be easy picking for your weak a*s guns.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.11.21 05:15:00 - [38]
 

Yeah you can put a point or a web in the place of the ecm Burst, but if the fights going badly for him and you have the point he can probably run away from you anyway, he's faster unless you brought a scram and he brought a mwd. If you put in a web, he'll just warp away if things are going bad, Web and point just gimps the tank too badly. I figure get right to the point, jam him and watch him run away.

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.21 20:52:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: oldmanst4r on 21/11/2010 21:09:01
If you want to kill rifters....

[Thrasher - Standard Murder]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Warp Scrambler II

200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
200mm Light Autocannon II [Republic Fleet EMP S]
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I

On the downside any rifter pilot with half a brain will start aligning out the second he sees the thrasher drop into the belt...

Edit: OP Wanted a missile fit...hurm (Pulls out EFT)

Griffin [Rifter Killer]

Ballistic Control System II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Warp Disruptor II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster [Cap Booster 75]
ECM Phase Inverter II

'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher [Caldari Navy Sabertooth Light Missile]
'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher [Caldari Navy Sabertooth Light Missile]
[Empty Slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I

Warrior II x 1

97% chance of jam.

50 dps

Cap Stable

1.4k EHP

Not to be used for anything other than solo duels with rifters...seriously.


Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.21 21:05:00 - [40]
 

Last time I checked my Merlin worked rather will killing rifters, and intys and what not. I got ACs on my merlin, but blasters work as well.

And its going to be better now that rockets will not totally suck :).

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.23 07:02:00 - [41]
 

Too many people over-complicating a simple issue. I've been flying the rifter for so many years its not even funny. Garmon even shows you how to do it.

[Rifter, The one and only]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Warp Scrambler II

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

----------

5.2k EHP, 107 DPS, 2.7k/s speed.

Hit approach, turn on all your guns, win.

The rifter is the best T1 frig in the game. I fly all t1 and t2 frigs in the game fully t2 fitted, and i've specialised in frigs since i started playing eve.

The only thing that scares me more than a 400 plate punisher is a properly fitted rifter, because it has the tank, the dps and the tackle... all at the same time.

Rebelike001
Posted - 2010.11.23 07:39:00 - [42]
 

Kiting Harpy?

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.11.23 08:45:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Maeltstome
Too many people over-complicating a simple issue. I've been flying the rifter for so many years its not even funny. Garmon even shows you how to do it.

[Rifter, The one and only]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Warp Scrambler II

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

----------

5.2k EHP, 107 DPS, 2.7k/s speed.

Hit approach, turn on all your guns, win.

The rifter is the best T1 frig in the game. I fly all t1 and t2 frigs in the game fully t2 fitted, and i've specialised in frigs since i started playing eve. The only thing that scares me more than a 400 plate punisher is a properly fitted rifter, because it has the tank, the dps and the tackle... all at the same time.


That's a straightforward kill for a Merlin. Faster, more agile, better DPS at range, more EHP.

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:37:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Maeltstome
Too many people over-complicating a simple issue. I've been flying the rifter for so many years its not even funny. Garmon even shows you how to do it.

[Rifter, The one and only]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Warp Scrambler II

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

----------

5.2k EHP, 107 DPS, 2.7k/s speed.

Hit approach, turn on all your guns, win.

The rifter is the best T1 frig in the game. I fly all t1 and t2 frigs in the game fully t2 fitted, and i've specialised in frigs since i started playing eve. The only thing that scares me more than a 400 plate punisher is a properly fitted rifter, because it has the tank, the dps and the tackle... all at the same time.


That's a straightforward kill for a Merlin. Faster, more agile, better DPS at range, more EHP.


No its not. A merlin cant hold a candle to a rifter. It doesn't matter what EFT says - rifters just perform so well against every other frig. I thought a 2006 cahracter would have realised this - the rifter has been the king for so long and ive never seen anything other than a plated punsiher trouble it.

Your EHP and DPS look better on EFT until you relaise the rifter can out-range basters and out-track rails. Its faster than you and does damage on your worst resitance, so your 'omni-EHP' is entirely wrong.

That anyone who's played longer than 6 months should never think a merlin can win against a competant rifter pilot.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.11.23 15:43:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/11/2010 15:59:02

Check again, a Merlin only needs a single aux thruster rig to be faster as well as more agile. I mean, what do you expect, piling on plates and trimarks like that?

After that, it all just comes down to piloting skill. If the Rifter gets a good intercept course and can stay close enough for long enough, it'll win. If not...

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:04:00 - [46]
 

Maelstome thanks for the laugh Embarassed

You can fly that monstrosity versus my merlin, tristan or whatever any day of the week.

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:48:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Maeltstome on 23/11/2010 16:50:59
Originally by: Gladys Pank
Maelstome thanks for the laugh Embarassed

You can fly that monstrosity versus my merlin, tristan or whatever any day of the week.



He asked for a setup against an MSE rifter - i gave him it. If you want a more general fit:

[Rifter, Standard]
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S

Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
[empty rig slot]

Alternative is MWD with a fitting mod in the lows.

Edit*

2k10 can haz an opinion.

Tozmeister
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.23 19:16:00 - [48]
 

2k10 can haz other accounts?

also Maeltstome, can you point us to some record of having flown 'rifters for so many years it's not funny'? BC,EKC and previous corps seem very light on your rifter prowess.

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.23 19:32:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Tozmeister
2k10 can haz other accounts?

also Maeltstome, can you point us to some record of having flown 'rifters for so many years it's not funny'? BC,EKC and previous corps seem very light on your rifter prowess.


If you learned to use eve search you'd see a video i released when i was a few weeks old flying rifter/jag (which is where i began my rifter career).

As far as killboard go, alot of killboards before corp API have gone down so you wont find them - beyond that you'll notice that my last 2 corps where actually small corps of friends who didnt care about killboard stats and didnt have one.

Feel free however to track down the D00M/triumvirate killboards and have a look at my stats there if you can be bothered. There's a few fight reports i'd like to retrieve myself if your up for it.

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.23 19:43:00 - [50]
 

Maeltstome is funny.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.11.23 21:57:00 - [51]
 

I'd imagine some sort of laser kiting setup would be able to do it, no?

Smabs
Posted - 2010.11.23 22:20:00 - [52]
 

Quote:
That anyone who's played longer than 6 months should never think a merlin can win against a competant rifter pilot.


I must've imagined killing all those rifters with my merlin when I started out.

MSE rifter has no range control against the merlin and its tank is obviously weaker, with the damage at the merlin's optimal range with neutrons/rails/lasers being fairly similar. So the merlin would win that fight or at least can just disengage whenever it likes.

I always had the most trouble with 400 plate rifters when flying the merlin.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.11.23 23:27:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Mavnas on 23/11/2010 23:27:51
[Executioner, New Setup 1]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Small Armor Repairer II

Warp Disruptor II
1MN Afterburner II

Medium Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Medium Beam Laser II, Aurora S

Small Ionic Field Projector I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Stay at 20-24km by being faster and win?


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