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blankseplocked Why you shouldn't pay money for labslots any more.
 
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agrizla
Posted - 2005.01.10 22:44:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: The Chef
Higher lab prices will stop people renting them, but newer members of EVE simply won't be able to afford to use them! The best case situation that I can see happening is a slight price rise as people use less-well researched BPO, and the availability of lab slots as a one or two week only use thing for the very rich (ie: 0.0 people).


Higher lab prices won't stop people renting them (or "hoarding them"). "Older" players can afford any price hike CCP can reasonably come up with and all it'll do is close labs off for new players on the basis of cost. I have 4 slots (which took ages to get in the area I wanted them) and I have NO intention of letting them go. Unfair on new players? Maybe but I'm damned if I'm going hunting for slots again. Are my slots in productive use? Well two are at all times but there's no way I'm giving up the other two as it'll take way too long to find other slots somewhere close should I need them.

Geofferic Sidharttha
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.10 22:52:00 - [32]
 

I dunno, folks...

My corp is a whopping two people, neither of which have played for 6 months.

We have two offices and a lab slot.

*shrugs*

The labslots *are* hard to find, tho. Heh Especially if you want it in any given particular area of space.

Zehnamkae
Zehnamkae Corp
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:23:00 - [33]
 

all the devs have done here is impliment a simple supply and demand pricing for the labs/offices/factories. limited supply, high demand and thus prices rise, when the demand falls so too shall the prices fall.

ccp was not looking towards the short term solutions here folks, if they wanted short term they would have just jacked the price to 10mil per week. they set a simple formula by which the prices rise and fall with demand. simple and elegant and damned close to the real world.

you cant honestly tell me that if you own a shop front and they gy you have in there is paying you 300/month and soem guy comes along and says i'll pay you twice what he's paying you that you wouldnt tell the current occupant to kinda leave or make a better offer.

if you can charge it and get away with it why not??
and if this line of thought applies to the pc's then why not to the npc's?? if eve is built upon the basic tenants of capitalism why do those have to be applied only to pc's?

i personally think this is a brillant idea. the cost of stuff in the big systems will sky rocket (yulai becomes the nyc of eve!!) and the prices in all the back water systems will drop to nothing.

its the same simple economics that drives the economies of many great (and sucky) nations.

i pay a whole hell of alot less for rent where i live than those poor people in nyc, why? because theres 18 million people clamoring for a limited amount of space and 60k looking for a home where i live. comperable areas too.

so yeah, supply demand, they have it, you want it and theres little to no competition. its life.

~Zehnamkae

Geofferic Sidharttha
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:26:00 - [34]
 

The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.

MooKids
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:34:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.


Stations are massive and expensive. Creating more lab slots is probably a lot of money for equipment and construction, making it uneconomical for them to make more, especially if they take a lot of space from the station.

Geofferic Sidharttha
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:38:00 - [36]
 

Where there's a buck to be made, there's a way.

MooKids
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:45:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
Where there's a buck to be made, there's a way.


I think they would make more money off the increasing lab slot prices. For something that originally cost 1k to rent going up to probably 3-4 mil for the same rental time, I would say that is a huge profit increase as it is.

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:46:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.


Supply always increases in real world/real market? Really. How about for example the supply of coastline where you can build an ocean front house?

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.10 23:56:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.
And some NPC corp is going to spend, assume 50 billion isk, so that they have 32 more labslots to rent. Which will net them 32m a week, assuming 1m/week prices (not the 32k a week that they were getting before).

Yeah. They should break even on that, ignoring operating costs, in about 35 years. 35,000 years using the pricing that they had up till may.

Thyro
X0-1 Industries
Posted - 2005.01.11 00:06:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Thyro on 11/01/2005 00:08:41
Originally by: MooKids
Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.


Stations are massive and expensive. Creating more lab slots is probably a lot of money for equipment and construction, making it uneconomical for them to make more, especially if they take a lot of space from the station.


yeah! You are right in all aspects...

the Bits tell the Bytes...

- Hey lots of carbon users looking for this sxhit

Bytes, the owners of the Station reply to the Bits (the station cleaners)

- No we will not increase the number of lab slots... because we would have to renegociate the contract and get more bits in

The Bits then reply,

- Damm so we will have to take all the ckap of these carbon users that rent these labs...

Bytes reply:

- Right, end of discussion, grab other bits and start cleaning the station

Bit reply...

- NO... carbon users demand more lab slots and we are tired of cleaning this crap and get all winning...

Bits group in 8 and form a strike union... and go on strike

- WE WANT BETTER WAGES!

After several months of Strike, GODS give a tip to Bytes...

- Hey dummy Byte... raise Bit's wages they deserve... increase slot prices and everyone will be happy except those dummy carbon users.

Byte reply...

- Yes master what a good idea, lets stop all this crap carbon users from winning with low number of slots.

Then Bytes raised Bits wages and raised the price table of the station slots

Resume...

I laught with your comment :) so stations are damm expensive!

And what only is required to do is those GODs to increase the number of slots available by changing the damm code that is no more than Bytes and Bits

Number of lab slots didnt change in the last few years when only existed less than 6000 players online. Today EVE is shoving more than 10000 players online and NOTHING WAS CHANGED.

Get the message CCP

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.11 01:03:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Thyro

Number of lab slots didnt change in the last few years when only existed less than 6000 players online. Today EVE is shoving more than 10000 players online and NOTHING WAS CHANGED.

Get the message CCP


CCP adds labs. People log in after downtime when it happens and rent them all. You still dont have a lab slot.

Zehnamkae
Zehnamkae Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 01:09:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
The problem with yer supply/demand logic (and CCP's if this is their thinking) is that this is not true market.

In a true market, if labslots were in such amazingly high demand people would be cranking them out. There'd be entire stations devoted to nothing but labslots.

You see, as demand increases so does supply. Supply never lags far behind demand in a real economy.


supply does not always meet demand. there are many items in the real world that simply do not increase in amount, like land. as it was pointed out above just because ocean front property is in high demand doesnt mean that they all of the sudden make more coast line. just because alot of people want to live in one place doesnt mean they can always build more houses. sometimes you cant make more, sometimes you can not build more. It is in those cases that the prices rise to an absurd level.

this happens most with real estate and natural resourses. sometimes there just aint more, theres only so much gold in the planet, theres only so much area in nyc, theres only just so much. you cant magically make more gold, you can not magically make more land to build on in manhattan (or london or paris etc etc etc) sure you can buildup in those cases but only so far before the land itself wont take it but i digress.

supply does not "have" to meet demand. it usually does, however some times it just doesnt. that, again, is just life. in the real world those systems hit an equilibrium and so to in eve the prices of labs and offices and factories will even out.

~Zehnamkae

Geofferic Sidharttha
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.01.11 01:09:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
Supply always increases in real world/real market? Really. How about for example the supply of coastline where you can build an ocean front house?



Yeeees... Have you ever been to a coastal state? lol

The total does not increase, no, but the total coastland that can be used for housing and whatnot does increase constantly.

So nyah.

Besides, labslots are more like unto a commodity than real property.

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.11 01:19:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Geofferic Sidharttha
Quote:
Supply always increases in real world/real market? Really. How about for example the supply of coastline where you can build an ocean front house?



Yeeees... Have you ever been to a coastal state? lol

The total does not increase, no, but the total coastland that can be used for housing and whatnot does increase constantly.

So nyah.

Besides, labslots are more like unto a commodity than real property.


I live on the beach.

Sarina
Amarr
Setenta Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 06:01:00 - [45]
 


Quote:
Thyro said :
Number of lab slots didnt change in the last few years when only existed less than 6000 players online. Today EVE is shoving more than 10000 players online and NOTHING WAS CHANGED.

Get the message CCP



Correct, the idea of raising prices is halfbaked, they need to increase the number of research facilities also.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Malv
Posted - 2005.01.11 08:12:00 - [46]
 

Eventually there will come a point where lab slots arnt worth the cost. That is the benifits of researching a bpo is not worth the excessive costs. Therefore, I really doubt all the tech 2 bpos will be able to fill all the lab slots across eve. What will happen is that lab slots wont become as great as they used to be, and less people will care about them.

Why are lab slots so great. Cause they let you save 10%. Now if that 10% is lost in the cost of the slot, well then, what's the point in having one?

Sarina
Amarr
Setenta Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 08:20:00 - [47]
 

Malv: Theres more than a mere 10% at stake here, when you consider the gain on production time. With the use of morphite and megacyte the economocal gain is wastly greater.

For copys to be attractive you need some ME at least, sure needs not to be anywhere major.

Why have the tech 2 items and ships gotten so rare, and when they are found the prices so high?
Simple! We sit here with the prints for those items but we cannot produce, we cannot make copies so other interested players can produce in other regions!

And thats's what so all important to me as a very small corp, is the ability to make limited run copies to sell.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Delath
Gallente
Posted - 2005.01.11 09:09:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Daxit

anyway, there's what i figure will eventually happen... ccp makes some kind of lab unit for POS and a factory unit for POS and tries to convince mega corps to shift their production and research out to 0.0.

just a rambling thought.


Uhm that's exactly what they're doing and have stated that they're doing since uhm they announced the exodus components half a year back or so. So all this discussion about fixed supply is superfluos really. Yes just raising prices without dynamic supply doesn't mimic a real market, but they are introducing that supply and it's named pos-labs. Yes it should've been in exodus from the start but I presume it will be in next patch. Yes it won't solve your labslotsproblems tomorrow but it is a longterm viable solution once it's in. Enough said.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.01.11 09:18:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Sarina
Malv: Theres more than a mere 10% at stake here, when you consider the gain on production time. With the use of morphite and megacyte the economocal gain is wastly greater.

For copys to be attractive you need some ME at least, sure needs not to be anywhere major.

Why have the tech 2 items and ships gotten so rare, and when they are found the prices so high?
Simple! We sit here with the prints for those items but we cannot produce, we cannot make copies so other interested players can produce in other regions!

And thats's what so all important to me as a very small corp, is the ability to make limited run copies to sell.




It is faster to produce tech 2 items than it is to make BPCs of them, so your arguement is null.

BPC's are the root of the problem anyway, limit BP to only being copyable twice (as I believe it was originally intended), and half the labslots will free up overnight.

Delath
Gallente
Posted - 2005.01.11 09:21:00 - [50]
 

And to add to the topic - the correct answer to what you should be paying is what you think you could earn from that lab in the time from now until you think the labslotsituation is stabilized and you can get a lab for free (but with a hefty rent of course - and personally my guess here is 2 months). Then you subtract the chance that you'll get ripped off times your price and you have it. That is provided your economically rational and don't want to pay extra just for the feeling of owning a lab. Which of course some people will just like some pay absurd amounts to have the latest ship though the combatabilities can't possibly match the price.

Delath
Gallente
Posted - 2005.01.11 09:28:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Avon

BPC's are the root of the problem anyway, limit BP to only being copyable twice (as I believe it was originally intended), and half the labslots will free up overnight.

Also it could restore producer as a somewhat more viable profession as more stuff will be sold over the market rather then everyone and their mother making starship equipment in the bathroom.

Sarina
Amarr
Setenta Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 09:36:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Sarina on 11/01/2005 09:46:05
First off, Thyros number for how many players we got here is wildly off, thought he had another zero there! Embarassed

Quote:
Avon said:

BPC's are the root of the problem anyway, limit BP to only being copyable twice (as I believe it was originally intended), and half the labslots will free up overnight.



So I would be running R&D agent missions for a whole year to get a print, then only to be allowed making two copies from it?

Get real!

And its not about speed either, its about whats possible to do with a very small corp.

But lets assume building ships was one option. To build tech 2 ships I would still have to build the tech 1 ships and then convert them.
The materials involved would run out very quick, talking morphite and reactors and whatever.
Then you would have to fly them to the various markets, time consuming indeed!
So that point drops dead on the ground right off.

Making print copies IS therefore the only viable option for the forseeable future....oh why do I bother! ugh

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.01.11 14:35:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Avon on 11/01/2005 14:36:36
Originally by: Sarina


Making print copies IS therefore the only viable option for the forseeable future....oh why do I bother! ugh




Just becasue you don't have what it takes to run a successful prodution line does not mean that making BPC's is right.
If you can't use the BPO, sell it to someone who has the savvy to put it to good use.

BPC's have ruined the whole manufacturing infrastructure of Eve.

BPC farming is the safest, most reliable, least skilled occupation in Eve.
It incurs no risk and makes steady and healthy profits - sometimes exceptionally high profits.

Blue print copies were intended as a way for a bpo owner to protect their investment, they were not meant to be a commodity.

CCP addressed this by limiting the runs on bpcs, and now by making t2 copies take much longer to create (hoping that people will produce the items, not just sell the bpc's).

Unfortunately this has still not worked.
Still people see a BPO as a master copy from which they should make prints to sell.

This is wrong.

Zero risk, high yield, and ruins the entire manufacturing, and to some extent trading, professions.

And you defend it?

Disgraceful.

Sarina
Amarr
Setenta Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 15:03:00 - [54]
 

Sell? Not an option.

After more than 1.5 year in Eve, I got one and only one thing left to do and explore in the game of Eve that I previously havnt done. And that is to research and copy my legally obtained, hard reseached prints that have taken me one whole year of gameplay to obtain.

How would that ruin manufacturing?
There's hardly no one manufacturing anything in this region for crying out loud!
Its not disgraceful, its helpful keeping some other guys playing and making money.
For I dont need more funds for the time I will remain here, question is if I will be able to spend what I got.

I've already adressed this in 'Factorys' no need to repeat myself except for one thing.

The Eve economy is at a standstill, no production worth mentioning is happening right now. This most obviously due to the lack of available labslots.

So you're the last to tell me what im supposed to do or not!

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Scorpanti Corporation
Posted - 2005.01.11 15:14:00 - [55]
 

Actually supply DOES invariably rise to meet demand.

For example ocean view property was quoted as disproving this.

A few years ago giant man made extensions were added to some rather popular ocean view areas. Giant patterns of land extending out from the shore, perpose built for expensive luxury home developement (i forget where,i just remember the newspaper article). They were constructed with what amounted to a load of dirt with structural support. Suddenly the supply of ocean view land raised, due to high demand.

Supply will EVENTUALLY always rise when demand is high.

Of course this is a game not real life, and simply raising the supply will not solve the problem. The so called 'megacorps' will just wander round hoarding all the lab slots and we will be back to the current situation a few months down the line.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.01.11 15:14:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Sarina
Sell? Not an option.

After more than 1.5 year in Eve, I got one and only one thing left to do and explore in the game of Eve that I previously havnt done. And that is to research and copy my legally obtained, hard reseached prints that have taken me one whole year of gameplay to obtain.

How would that ruin manufacturing?
There's hardly no one manufacturing anything in this region for crying out loud!
Its not disgraceful, its helpful keeping some other guys playing and making money.
For I dont need more funds for the time I will remain here, question is if I will be able to spend what I got.

I've already adressed this in 'Factorys' no need to repeat myself except for one thing.

The Eve economy is at a standstill, no production worth mentioning is happening right now. This most obviously due to the lack of available labslots.

So you're the last to tell me what im supposed to do or not!




Production is at a standstill because of bpc's.

Don't give me that I've been here forever stuff either, so have I - that is why I know that bpc sales are the biggest stumbling block in the whole Eve economy.

You want free labslots?

Ask the devs how many slots are used for research compared with copying.

Delath
Gallente
Posted - 2005.01.11 15:34:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Avon

BPC's have ruined the whole manufacturing infrastructure of Eve.


In fact this was recognized by the devs in some devchat earlier this fall where they said they were very aware of the problem and was considering removing copying totally from the game. They had thought limiting the max number of runs would help solve the problem but it was still there and not only does it adversly affect manufacturers but as the asker of the question put it "allows the copiers to virtually print their own isk". In fact the devs said it had gone so far that they were seriously considering removing bpos altogether and let everyone buy copies of the markets or from agents though that might hurt manufacturers as well.

Anyway the outcome of it was that they were considering this as a problem but since it's connected with a whole host of other manufacturing/researchproblems like the availability of T2 stuff that Sarina speaks of they weren't gonna do something drastical about it right now but rather do a more massive overhaul at a later unspecified time.

Sarina
Amarr
Setenta Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 15:45:00 - [58]
 

Nicholai Pestot said:
The so called 'megacorps' will just wander round hoarding all the lab slots and we will be back to the current situation a few months down the line.

That is a risk yes, and the megacorps of this game have created what is no less than a cartel. Theres nothing as damaging for one economy when free enterprise isnt permitted to run freely.

Historic examples have shown that over and over, and this is also the reason why cartels are outlawed in the real world.
Sadly the game of Eve have had serious problems avoiding this situation, and just like Avon said, 'Sell the origiginal print then' - but thats exactly one of the major reasons they have for doing this. To squeeze out the smaller players!

It didnt take a genius to find out this weak spot of the Eve economy, and it happened quite early but with Techell and the miner II prints.
They squeezed out the smaller guys and bought their prints creating a monopoly which they held for a considerable time.

So its nothing new, the issue right now is just the same thing on a grander scale by gobbling up all labslots.

So I know very well why some attacks me so strongly here and in the factory discussions, its so obvious its silly!

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.11 17:28:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Actually supply DOES invariably rise to meet demand.

For example ocean view property was quoted as disproving this.

A few years ago giant man made extensions were added to some rather popular ocean view areas. Giant patterns of land extending out from the shore, perpose built for expensive luxury home developement (i forget where,i just remember the newspaper article). They were constructed with what amounted to a load of dirt with structural support. Suddenly the supply of ocean view land raised, due to high demand.

Supply will EVENTUALLY always rise when demand is high.

Of course this is a game not real life, and simply raising the supply will not solve the problem. The so called 'megacorps' will just wander round hoarding all the lab slots and we will be back to the current situation a few months down the line.


To some extent you are right, though I think that these kind of projects can only increase coastline up to a certain point and so your claim that supply will eventually always rise when demand is high is still wrong. There is just a limit on some things. Earth is finite, seas are deep. Maybe going to Mars and building first an ocean there and then expanding the coastline there is theoretically possible but ocean front property would have to increase in price significantly from where we are now before humans go planet-hopping coastline-building.

The kind of project that you describe takes place not just when "demand is high" but when demand is high ENOUGH. This point, going back to labslots for roleplaying purposes, means that even if stations actually had space to add more labslots (which would make them unlike a costline), it may very well be that the demand for labslots is still not high enough to warrant the addition of labslots which may be extremely costly to build and even at current prices still make a loss to the corporation that owns the station. They are simply there for advancement of theoretical knowledge of the empires and their costs are subsidized by the empires and not fully carried by the labslots users. Which is why there is no additional labslots being built even though the demand for them may be huge among pod pilots.

Zehnamkae
Zehnamkae Corp
Posted - 2005.01.11 17:58:00 - [60]
 

i see we are onto the topic of bpc now, how lovely. though i have given my opinion on this topic before it really was a while ago so maybe the point of view should be represented here, no?

On BPC's

i honestly do not think that bpc's are the problem. it is the skills needed to progduce the items in question. manufacturing is the only profession in eve that you can perform almost _every_ task in the profession after training one skill to level one. once anyone trains inudstry to level one then they are one their way to being a manufacurer.
You only need industry lvl 1 to producce _any_ tech one item in the game. It takes the same amount of skill to make a raven as it does a bantam, the same skill to produce an iteron mk I as it does an iteron mk V as it does to produdce Iron S.
The only other skills that are applicable only increase your effecancy of production, not what you can produce. you do not need any extra special skills to produce anything until you get to the tech two items.
if you needed to specialize into what you can produce, like you have to do in real life. (honestly you dont see intel cranking out automobiles and boeing certainly doesnt make ak's)
If you needed frigate construction to make a bantam and battleship construction to make a raven iam quite sure you'd see the market for bpc's drop off the face of the planet, and then since labs were not the isk making machines they are (throw in the rising costs to help along) people will drop the slots, and since everyone and their brother couldnt make every damned tech 1 item in the game after they spend 250!!!!!!!! skill points then i am sure that you'd see specialization, a decrease in competition (which might increase prices to the general public but honestly the public shouldnt be buying the items sold to them at only a (atbest) 15% markup) and a healthy and proper producer-consumer relationship.

mah .02 isk

~Zehnamkae


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