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raukosen
Posted - 2010.12.02 21:21:00 - [301]
 

Why go to the effort of adding a faction supercarrier if you're going to make it the second worst supercarrier in the game? Considering how much it's going to cost it's, in practice, going to be the worst supercarrier.

Yes the bonus is more in line with Sansha but getting slightly more drone bay space is not the same as getting 3-4 extra utility highs. It's not a very useful bonus, it's different not better so it's not really a "bonus". Faster fighters/bombers? Rolling Eyes

MAKE THE SHIP DESIRABLE

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2010.12.02 21:38:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

Caldari carrier:
* Can deploy 1 additional fighter or fighter-bomber per level
* 50% bonus to capital energy and shield transfer per level


Did you miss out the word 'range' by any chance? Because otherwise that's a pretty big buff to remote shield and energy repping.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.12.03 00:19:00 - [303]
 

Make it so it can dock in True Power and True Creations stations.

Koronos
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:48:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Koronos on 03/12/2010 01:48:46
nevermind.

Just more spaikes moar shineh.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.12.03 04:01:00 - [305]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/12/2010 04:04:23
Originally by: Koshiko Murakami
So basically a Hel with faster fighterbombers? That doesn't seem very awesome.


the hel gets a 100% boost to fighter damage?

So it sounds like the new carrier should be in line with the current super carriers but not 400% stronger, more like 1.5% stronger? a ship and a half?

Faster bombers sounds badass but how about instead that same bonus but to all other Super carriers on grid? So that it's a support Supercarrier? So you bring in a sansha supercarrier/mothership, and it makes all of your fighters and bombers faster. That would boost how many fleets would want one :P

maybe too powerful?

HellsAngell
Posted - 2010.12.03 07:40:00 - [306]
 

I would rather see a faction dread than a MS. We all know dreads need a boost so maybe next time i see a angel dread beeing presented :)

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2010.12.03 07:42:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/12/2010 04:04:23
Originally by: Koshiko Murakami
So basically a Hel with faster fighterbombers? That doesn't seem very awesome.


the hel gets a 100% boost to fighter damage?

So it sounds like the new carrier should be in line with the current super carriers but not 400% stronger, more like 1.5% stronger? a ship and a half?

Faster bombers sounds badass but how about instead that same bonus but to all other Super carriers on grid? So that it's a support Supercarrier? So you bring in a sansha supercarrier/mothership, and it makes all of your fighters and bombers faster. That would boost how many fleets would want one :P

maybe too powerful?


The other SCs can field 20 FBs (+1 for each DCU). The Sansha SC can only field 10 FBs (+1 for each DCU), but the 100% damage gives it an effective default of 20 FBs. The Nyx gets +5% FB damage per level so the Nyx's effective FB number is 25.

Vincent Jarjadian
Posted - 2010.12.03 12:18:00 - [308]
 

but the 100% damage bonus means you effectivly get 2 from each DCU meaning this can have an effective 32 bombers.

i really like the fact it applies hit points too for the FBs.

would have been nice to have that role bonus changed for the shield effects for slave sets, would make is really desirable.

It's certainly a lot better than the original setup ccp were going to use. All they need to think about now is that FBs may kill their own tracking when MWDing around a target since they dont use missiles anymore.

anyone got accurate(ish) EHP numbers while fitted with the usual faction gear on the new layout, maybe to compare use a shield harmonizing ganglink with it too for extra EHP.

Raid'En
Posted - 2010.12.03 15:04:00 - [309]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 03/12/2010 15:06:30

i'm a noob on SC so maybe i'll say something ridiculous, but if the devs really liked the jump bonus before, why not taking the idea back, not on the ship, but making it fleet wide ?

you explained that on the ship alone it has no use, but if you make it a bonus on all the capitals on the fleet... it must be interesting. just need to review the number to have something good.

this would give a real interest of having one sansha SC on the fleet.
could also be used to allow a titan to have better range on his portal

when i think about this ship i think about having one on the fleet as a bonus, not having 10.
so really something which give an interesting bonus to the fleet.

Lascano
Traumark Shadow Elite
H Y E N A
Posted - 2010.12.03 15:16:00 - [310]
 

OK i'm getting this ship nowCool .... when do you plan to put it in game?

Aylara
Posted - 2010.12.03 15:44:00 - [311]
 

Edited by: Aylara on 03/12/2010 15:48:05
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

Caldari carrier:
* Can deploy 1 additional fighter or fighter-bomber per level
* 50% bonus to capital energy and shield transfer per level

Wow, imagine 10 or more Mr.Hanky spider tanking.

Edit: you might be missing "range" rather than "amount" though

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.12.03 18:48:00 - [312]
 

Okay, so we've now got a ship fielding the equivalent of up to 32 fighter-bombers, and which has four fifths of the drone capacity of the Nyx, but gets double the bang for the buck per fighter-bomber, meaning more available waves.

SIGNIFICANTLY more if you assume they're flying into smart bomb fire, since each wave will also last twice as long (area damage coming up against doubled HP).

Um. I'm no expert, but this is looking all kinds of viable.

... I kinda want one.

Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
CryoTech Engineering
Omega Vector
Posted - 2010.12.03 19:26:00 - [313]
 

Ok, now that were seeing some changes in the right direction, the real question will be, when can we get our hands on some of there to actually test these on sisi to see if they are going to be exploitable, or just primary targets?



DL

pmchem
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:22:00 - [314]
 

So it's kind of like a Marauder version of a Supercarrier. Marauders are often seen in nullsec pvp.

At least now something will get shot before Hels!

Cannig Tol
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:25:00 - [315]
 

You know what I like, it can only field an effective 16 normal drones even with high slots full of DCUs


Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:25:00 - [316]
 

All the bonuses of this ship (effective DCU bonus, fighter speed bonus) make this ideal for botting sanctums.

I like it.

Kesper North
Caldari
Gentlemen of Means
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:33:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Mike deVoid
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/12/2010 04:04:23
The other SCs can field 20 FBs (+1 for each DCU). The Sansha SC can only field 10 FBs (+1 for each DCU), but the 100% damage gives it an effective default of 20 FBs. The Nyx gets +5% FB damage per level so the Nyx's effective FB number is 25.


Actually it looks to me that the Revenant can field 15 SBs at max skills, not 10, before DCUs. Its base drone bandwidth is 7500 so 7500/500 = 15.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:34:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: Weaselior on 03/12/2010 22:33:52
Originally by: Kesper North
Originally by: Mike deVoid
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 03/12/2010 04:04:23
The other SCs can field 20 FBs (+1 for each DCU). The Sansha SC can only field 10 FBs (+1 for each DCU), but the 100% damage gives it an effective default of 20 FBs. The Nyx gets +5% FB damage per level so the Nyx's effective FB number is 25.


Actually it looks to me that the Revenant can field 15 SBs at max skills, not 10, before DCUs. Its base drone bandwidth is 7500 so 7500/500 = 15.



5 fighters from drones V + 5 fighters from Carrier V. 10.

Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
CryoTech Engineering
Omega Vector
Posted - 2010.12.04 02:22:00 - [319]
 

OK, looking over the specs, I see one possible issue, the bonus to cap energy transfer lends itself to supercap circle ..... dual transfer to generate more cap than it uses, this could make 2 or more of these working together damn near unkillable. since they are immune to Ewar, you cant break their locks on each other...... umm, re-evaluate that please?



DL

Fat paul
Posted - 2010.12.04 12:17:00 - [320]
 

Fix the game instead of producing new and pointless sh*t kthnx.

~Alt of Hedliner~

Syndemic
Posted - 2010.12.05 06:04:00 - [321]
 

While the best idea I've read (dunno who where it was first presented) to make the Revenant useful was a hull bonus where slave implants give a shield bonus, CCP just needs to suck it up and introduce a shield bonus implant akin to slaves from the Guristas, or some other faction. It's only one but a major step to make way for shield tanking supers to live up to their armor tanking big brothers.

Crye MultiCam
Posted - 2010.12.05 06:21:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: CannibalCorpseZor
At first give a normal bonus for Hel, then think out something new!

Kralin Ignatov
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Posted - 2010.12.05 12:30:00 - [323]
 

Ok, you are getting there. My critique:

  1. As the goon above me metioned, the loss of regular drones hurts this ship's ability to encounter smaller vessels, when compared to other SC's. If the damage + HP bonuses applied to all types of drones, it would help mitigate that loss (except w/ ewar drones).

  2. Are the 'Special Ability' bonuses changing? because w/o those, the ships is even more underpowered than it seems atm. Although the 30% jump is useless in fleets, I know a lot of SC pilots wouldn't mind having it (Beacon dropping, alliance deployment, ect) for the solo aspect of flying capitals

  3. As it stands, the tank is only a little better than the Hel, which while this does bring it within the range of Supercarrier tanks, its still low compared to Aeons (slaves) or Wyverns(-1 slot, no 5% bonus). As it stand right now, faction ships, especially pirate faction, always have the most raw starting hp, and this ship should be no different. I would either go w/ 25% shield resist pirate bonus, or loose the warefare link bonus (no one is going to use it) and tie a 5% resist to the amarr skill, which...

  4. Brings me to my last point, the balance of training. Not many that will be flying this ship would care much to train amarr carrier past 4 if they had other things to do. Caldari carrier holds the important bonuses, whereas the amarr skill holds non-necessary sp. There should be reason enough to train both to V.



Kai Yuen
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:02:00 - [324]
 

That 100% bonus to damage needs to apply to drones as well, otherwise the Revanant is going to continue to be underwhelming. Not only can it not field 20 drones, but it can't even hit like it fields 20 drones. That's useless. It's STILL the second worst super carrier. Let the damage bonus apply to all drones. Give it a TANK bonus. SCs are all about tank and the only SC without a tank bonus, save the Nyx, is the WORST SC of them all. Not giving the Rev a tank bonus is just feeding it to the wolves.

Travis Immortalis
Gallente
Beyond Evil and Good
Posted - 2010.12.06 03:49:00 - [325]
 

Edited by: Travis Immortalis on 06/12/2010 03:52:23
First let me say that I really like the changes. I agree that the ship should follow more in-line with the rest of the Sansha ship bonuses (don't listen to all the nay-sayers pushing for a resistance bonus). Let me also double-check on that Caldari logistic bonus…is that actually a bonus to AMOUNT, and not range?? I certainly hope that wasn't a typo, because I LOVE that idea.

That all being said, I do have to offer some critique…
The bonus to fighter/fighter-bomber MWD speed is a good start, to keep the bonuses in-line with other Sansha ship Amarr-skill-bonuses, but it creates a problem. For other Sansha ships, the Amarr skill provides a tracking bonus, to help the laser turrets hit more acurately, which essencially allows them to hit smaller, faster targets. When drones are the weapon being used, boosting a drone's speed only helps so much, when it's attacking a smaller, faster target. When a fighter gets into orbit around a smaller target, it's own orbit speed out-paces it's tracking ability, and can no longer score any hits at all. So boosting the MWD speed means that fighters (and subsequently, fighter-bombers as well) will actually have an even harder time hitting the smaller targets (due to MWDing into orbit more frequently, and following less). This "bonus", as it stands now, is actually more of a penalty. To fix this, you would need to apply a bonus per Amarr level to drone tracking, along with with the speed bonus, to balance it all out, so that the overall effect actually does become a bonus rather than a penalty.
Secondly, I also have to agree that the 100% bonus to damage/hitpoints needs to apply to normal drones as well. Otherwise, this does make the ship even more vulnerable to smaller vessels than the empire supercarriers.
Other than the above points, I really like what you're doing here. I can see incredible potential for this ship, and now I definately want to get one of these (provide you fix the drone MWD speed "bonus" thing). However, I would also really like to see the other Sansha capitals arise from all of this (especially a Dreadnaught, and Titan…Sansha Kuvekai does love his lazors, after all).

Keep up the good work! Very Happy

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.06 11:00:00 - [326]
 

I'm questioning the use of a jump range bonus, as that doesn't allow the ship to stick with other supercaps (only carriers). Applying it as a fleet bonus would be silly, and will quickly lead not only to easier supercap hotdrops but more stranded folks after a disconnection or fleet org change.

However this can be fixed by adding a simple niche:

Remove jump range bonus
Remove amarr carrier bomber speed bonus
Add this:
Fleet Bonus: -5% bonus to jump drive activation cost per level of Amarr Carrier.


xo3e
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.06 14:51:00 - [327]
 

Quote:
more closely follow the Sansha's Nation ship building philosophy


speed and sansha ships
sansha ships and speed...

dont mind that sansha frig, cruiser and BS is slow almost as amarr ships, but just believe, that speed is Sansha Ship Building Philosophy!

seriously.. make figters from Revenant able to effectively catch up with and hit cruiser-size on MWD, and fighter-bombers able to effectively kill BCs and BSs and than it will be pretty Sansha.


HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.07 08:24:00 - [328]
 

im with xoe3 make it hit the good stuff and bcs at least and it should be a vaulable weapon

Xing Fey
Posted - 2010.12.07 09:06:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Syndemic
While the best idea I've read (dunno who where it was first presented) to make the Revenant useful was a hull bonus where slave implants give a shield bonus, CCP just needs to suck it up and introduce a shield bonus implant akin to slaves from the Guristas, or some other faction. It's only one but a major step to make way for shield tanking supers to live up to their armor tanking big brothers.


Realy, waht needs to be done is that the slave shet should bonus shield, armour, and hull HP, and the crystal should bonus shield armour and hul rep rate...

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.07 13:12:00 - [330]
 

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1012/sms.png
(please note this includes these implants: CR8, CC8, KVA2000, KYA2000, siege mindlink)

This ship is still of questionable use.

1) Still fairly low HP for what will be an expensive ship. The only shield bonus not added in this example is the Leviathan's, which would still need to regenerate over several hours to be of use.
2) The drone bonuses are pants-on-head ******ed. With 1 bomber per level, the Revenant does the same DPS as any other supercarrier while having less drones out - making them easier to primary with a fleet. If you want to actually make the most of the damage bonus you can sacrifice your high-slots for DCU's. However you won't be able to use the 6th one thanks to drone bandwidth. The additional DCU from the role bonus really only saves you from training ADI V.
3) Jump range bonus is of limited use. The Revenant can only travel with similarly-skilled carriers if it wants to make any use of it. Why not have a more useful jump-capacitor bonus - or even gang bonus - instead?
4) Bomber MWD speed cuts about 6 seconds off a 50km distance to a target. Then the bomber settles into an orbit speed and no longer gains any benefit. Useless bonus.
5) The remote transfer bonuses suffer from Hel-syndrome. If you want any EHP at all on your ship, then prepare to lose any and all cap stability. This means that you can't support even one transfer locally for any length of time. Why bother with the bonus?


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