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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.11.08 20:19:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 08/11/2010 20:24:10
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 08/11/2010 20:19:59
There is general consensus that hybrids are weedy. However, for a number of reasons, previous proposals did not pass. I suggest we figure out what we need, and finally get hybrids fixed.
Content of this post may be modified as the discussion goes on, in order to reflect the conclusion our community will (hopefully) come to. I would like everybody replying to this post to agree or disagree with each point separately.
The issue with hybrids today is that they tend to combine the shortcomings of all weapon systems, rather than their strengths: i.e. neut vulnerability, need for ammunition, etc.

1 The most bizarre aspect of hybrids to me, is the LARGER ammunition size. All hybrid charges are twice as large as their projectile counterparts. There are two reasons why this is wrong:
The ship firing hybrid charges has to expend it’s capacitor energy to do so. That means it will need more capacitor booster charges and have to carry larger hybrid ammo. Overall this will result in lower durability of hybrid platforms.
Rail guns have higher rate of fire than artillery canons. That mean they will chew through more ammo during an engagement, and since this ammo is larger, their durability suffers yet again.
In the difference of projectile ammunition, hybrid charges are simply chunks of metal, containing no propellant.
Their calibre is also much smaller – 425mm against 1400mm. Assuming that the “bullet length” is the same (which it isn’t) hybrid charges should be at least 10 times smaller in volume then their projectile counterparts, without the propellant.
Conclusion: size of hybrid ammunition needs to be greatly reduced.

2 To give hybrids an extra edge, reloading time could be reduced from 10 seconds to, say, 5 seconds. That makes hybrids tactically more flexible. Lower reloading time could be justified by smaller size of ammunition.

3 Blasters have range several times shorter than that of projectiles, yet their tracking is the same. They have the lowest relative taking at their range. This tracking should be improved.

4 Null ammo Is the worst of all t2 long-range ammunitions. 25% bonus to optimal and falloff is substantially worse than 50% bonus to optimal scorch gets. To make them equal, Null should get 37.5% to 40% bonus to optima and falloff. If someone doubts this, I will be glad to give you the numbers.

5Referring to THis topic, where author gave every weapon system a score. Although arbitrary by nature, it reflects the situation quite well. Ideally lasers should obtain the best score, then followed closely by hybrids, and then by projectiles, in order of their energy consumption. This is clearly not the case. As the author states, blaster damage output should be somewhat improved to compensate for their lack of range. Their range should not be extended, otherwise we get OP autocanons.

6 To bring the scores closer together, both tracking and damage of rails should be improved. I am hesitant to give exact figures, but adding 5% to each figure should do it.

Void and Javelin suck, but that’s the case with all guns, and reasons are well-known. There is also an obvious problem with gallente physisophy (britux with dualrepp, mwd and full rack of cap hungry guns, Very Happy), but i tried to concentrate o guns themselves here.

Please keep your criticism constructive.

To CSM: IF you need numbers, references, or whatever else, tel me.

mchief117
Posted - 2010.11.08 21:18:00 - [2]
 

1 hybrid charges are mostl likly large due to there construction, ther ein essence micro bombs , they have a tastly core filled with some type of explosive and a hard outer shell, when used in a railgun the whole unit is fired at the target, when used in a blaster the core is suched out and super heated then fired like a water gun. which makes me think that they should most likly be doing more damage or like the rail guns in the moves , damage all 3 Hp bars at the same time ( hey when was the last time you saw a movie that used rail guns the the thing didnt shoot a hole clean through its target)

2 not sure if this would work, even due to size you still have some form of ammo belt to deal with and if that belt has 5 large projectile shots or 10 medium hybrid shots it gona take the same time to take down and replace.

3 I personaly dont see why blasters have trackign issues to begin with, you woudl think that a weapon designed to work up to max 10K (ish) would be able to track anything in that zone. Im perfactly up for giving Blasters a insanly high hit anything in your range tracking ability, cause if a frig cant outrun a bs its doing something wrong

4 never really used those ammos types so cant present argument


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.11.09 02:38:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
1 hybrid charges are mostl likly large due to there construction


... Have you looked at railgun sizes vs projectile sizes lately?
A 425mm Railgun is a max sized battleship turret.
A 425mm Autocannon fits on a cruiser.

I think it's a safe bet projectile rounds are bigger.

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2010.11.09 05:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Arkanor on 09/11/2010 05:08:19
Originally by: mchief117
words



Rail charges are accelerated to many times the speed of projectile charges, the cartridge must contain a significant amount of propellant to make this happen. In addition, in order to pack near the same energy they need to be much larger (hence the 1400mm vs 425, etc. Both sizes are pretty arbitrary and ridiculous but whatever.)

Particle blasters similarly don't need to fire as much ...stuff... at the enemy. Consider

1kg 95+% U235 projectile - 88,250,000 MJ
1kg D2 fusion projectile - 576,000,000 MJ
1kg Matter-Antimatter annihilation - 90,000,000,000 MJ

Tyranis Marcus
Posted - 2010.11.09 06:16:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Tyranis Marcus on 09/11/2010 06:25:29
Originally by: Arkanor
Edited by: Arkanor on 09/11/2010 05:08:19
Originally by: mchief117
words



Rail charges are accelerated to many times the speed of projectile charges, the cartridge must contain a significant amount of propellant to make this happen.




What? Railgun charges don't contain any propellant. They're fired from RAILGUNS. Do a Google search for railguns. You'll like 'em.

Also if you look at the measurements and graphics of the different ammunition in-game, the projectile rounds should be way bigger than hybrid charges, based on the listed diameters, and the proportion of length to diameter shown in the graphics.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.11.09 10:07:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 09/11/2010 10:07:33
Quote:
1kg 95+% U235 projectile - 88,250,000 MJ
1kg D2 fusion projectile - 576,000,000 MJ
1kg Matter-Antimatter annihilation - 90,000,000,000 MJ

those numbers are not really relevant, because railguns don't use fission, fusion, ot antimatter charges. They take energy from the ship's capacitor (whichever way it got tere) and use it to accelerate a chunk of metal. The hunk of metal melts partially during acceleration, which is why it looks cool the way it does, and hit it's target. No explosives involved. (except for antimatter ammo).
As much as i enjoy discussing the RP perspective of this, could we focus on the effect it would have on game play?

Jahpahjay
Posted - 2010.11.09 14:36:00 - [7]
 

100% support on all 6 points. Excellent work bringing all the issues together. It's easier to grasp the extent of the hybrid problem and possible solutions in this format.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.09 16:48:00 - [8]
 

Honestly, hybrids just need to do something different. Lasers have high dps, missiles have higher (but lagged) dps, projectiles have alpha strike, hybrids have... effectively no niche. From a balance standpoint, sure, what the OP suggests would make them better. Honestly, I think the hybrid ships are a large part of the problem.

Ric Adburr
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2010.11.09 17:21:00 - [9]
 

While Gallente ships are certainly part of the problem, hybrids themselves being fixed would go a long way toward making them better in my eyes. As it is now, the only Gallente ships I fly anymore are drone boats.

I mean when you think about it, Gallente ships suffer from the same 'lack of a niche' that their weapon system suffers from. They don't armor tank as well as Amarr, but they're not as fast as Minmatar. What you end up with is a ship sort of half-assing it, not quite fast enough, not quite tanky enough. The other races ships are more specialized for their purposes.

Anyway, I agree with the OP's proposed changes. I especially like the idea of shorter reload times, rails that damage both armor and shield simultaneously, and better tracking.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.11.09 17:56:00 - [10]
 

I agree that Ammo changes could allow hybrids to really be a hybrid.

I suggested something similar to the projectile changes (3 range groups) but rather than damage type flexibility (as you get with projectiles) you could have different tracking and firing speed (adjusting the alpha for similar dps) within each group.

This would allow you to pick slower firing ammo to give more alpha (with less tracking), a faster firing ammo with less alpha (but better tracking) or a jack of all trades with no tracking or refire bonuses within each range band.


I also suggested 5 second reload to allow changing from long range to short range ammo to give better situational flexibility.

Cap use should be looked at as should the ammo sizes.


Now that roflkits have been looked at I think it is time for hybrids Wink

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.11.09 21:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: TeaDaze
I agree that Ammo changes could allow hybrids to really be a hybrid.

I suggested something similar to the projectile changes (3 range groups) but rather than damage type flexibility (as you get with projectiles) you could have different tracking and firing speed (adjusting the alpha for similar dps) within each group.

This would allow you to pick slower firing ammo to give more alpha (with less tracking), a faster firing ammo with less alpha (but better tracking) or a jack of all trades with no tracking or refire bonuses within each range band.
Now that roflkits have been looked at I think it is time for hybrids Wink

I actually didn't think about that,tand i think it's a great idea. Nobody sane will spend 10 seconds reloading for 5% more optimal- it usually isn't a deal big enough. You don't see much difference between uranium and plutonium charges. there is little difference between thorium and lead. Tracking and firing speed could, on the other hand, be immensely useful. Mind if i add it to the original post?

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.09 21:32:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ogogov on 09/11/2010 21:35:44
First off, THANK YOU for posting a well reasoned topic with some positive changes.


1
This argument actually holds a great deal of water and I'm pleased you brought it up, because its something I didn't really notice before.

2I like this idea alot. Hybrid reloads absolutely slaughter the dps of Gallente ships.

3I'll up you one more step and say the whole sig radius algorithm needs revising so that blasters work without being broken and able to hit orbiting cruisers. The tracking issue is a tough problem because the math really isn't well understood. It seems to me that even though sig radius is supposed to SIMULATE a larger target area, it's really just an abstract number and what the formula is really working on are two euclidean points. This needs to be revised to take into account how large a battleship orbiting at 2500m would actually be in terms of surface area to a tracking turret. It would take up a large portion of the sky in terms of arc-seconds and would likely be extremely easy to hit.

4I think CCP are working on some T2 ammo tweaks but I have no idea what they have planned. I feel that blaster boats should be focusing FAR MORE on optimal range - the falloff bonuses given to many hulls are quite nonsensical. Blasters should have a very low falloff as realistically, the plasma from the charge would lose cohesion rapidly.

5I don't know if hybrids necessarily need to be 'better' score-wise than Projectiles but Blasters in particular need some kind of clear advantage for the risk involved in getting a gun platform into range in order to do damage.


Also hats off to TeaDaze for being the first CSM type I can remember who's touched the hybrids issue. Thanks :)

*edit*
Quote:

I suggested something similar to the projectile changes (3 range groups) but rather than damage type flexibility (as you get with projectiles) you could have different tracking and firing speed (adjusting the alpha for similar dps) within each group.


This is a very good idea also. I remember when i was first learning eve and wondered why the hell there were so many different kinds of hybrid ammo that did absolutely nothing. AFAIK the only types that are used are Antimatter, Lead and sometimes I personally use Iridium for range, because let's face it.. the T2 ammo sucks horribly and Iron hits like a wet noodle.

I keep coming back to wishing that Railguns also had some kind of shield-piercing or shield bleed capability... perhaps that's something that could be done to buff the long range T2 ammo when it gets looked at.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.11.09 21:47:00 - [13]
 

As much as i would enjoy shield-piersing, and i am afraid that it might be overpowered. I mean, if you have a drake with 700 dps passive tank, and a ceptor/af with rails tackles it and kills it just by damage bleeding through shield, is that fair? I am not sure

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.11.09 22:27:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Crazy KSK on 18/12/2010 22:33:48

lots of awesome ideas here and i totally agreed with that hybrids need fixing badly but its not just them its also the ships that use them that for example have very hard time staying in range for the blasters to hit

so in short fix the whole gallentean race look at all ship's stats, bonuses, how much its is used and for what etc
especially the diemost and the ishnotfittingtar(ishtar) need some luve also missiles on gallente ships are...just not right


~o~
EDIT:yeah and fix the most important part about gallente ships being the slowest with the shortest guns that just does not fit I.E.

MAKE GALLENTE SHIPS THE FASTEST

yes that means faster than minmatar ships

PS: don't fear to make hybrids overpowered as they have the most penalties of all weapons so (ammo use, cap use,) so in return they should be better then the others

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.11.09 22:46:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
I actually didn't think about that,tand i think it's a great idea. Nobody sane will spend 10 seconds reloading for 5% more optimal- it usually isn't a deal big enough. You don't see much difference between uranium and plutonium charges. there is little difference between thorium and lead. Tracking and firing speed could, on the other hand, be immensely useful. Mind if i add it to the original post?

Feel free to add it as another possible fix. I haven't quoted numbers etc because that is something for Game design to look at. However I would say the max alpha from a railgun should be less than an arty for example and that a blaster should have the highest DPS of any gun at point blank range.

As with all CSM proposals we can't promise CCP will implement the exact solution provided here, think of them more as guidelines.

Nischara
Posted - 2010.11.09 22:55:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Nischara on 09/11/2010 23:01:05
Edited by: Nischara on 09/11/2010 22:59:15
1. the drawbacks of ammo size can be intentional because of other strong-points of hybrid weapons (there are no strong points, i would like to change that first)
and roleplay reasons can be easily fixed, like, the unstable material contained in the charge needs a very large, powered protective container for transport

2. like the idea, as a general game change to make weapons more diverse, change load times of hybrids to 5 seconds, and also change missiles to 20 seconds (also double the capacity of missile launchers)
that way we have 4 flavors of weapon systems based on another factor, currenty we have normal systems and overpowered lasers judging by this characteristic

3. tracking is a major problem for blasters, mostly caused by the great speed (web) nerf, webs got nerfed by 50% and now blasters are realy unfairly underpowered, they need an almost 100% boost to tracking just to bring them inline with the pre-nerf status, which would mean that you can hit things if you web them, still cant hit anything not webed... also all weapon systems got hurt by the web nerf, so the number shouldnt relay be 100%, but still, atleast as much that a BS can hit another BS while orbiting it

4. agree, simple math 25% on half plus another 25% on the other half is not a total of 50%, it's a total of 25%, so yes that needs changing to 40%, regardless of any other changes to hybrids

5. agree, blasters need a major DPS boost, current status is that you get maybe 20% more DPS in exchange for something like 4-5 times smaler range. exact number for dps boost needs to be thought out carefuly, and also depends on point #3, if they get a tracking bost, then a minor dps bost is needed, and if they dont get the tracking boost then their dps should be insane, because you cant hit anything anyway

6. rails are wierd, the main problem is that they suck at medium ranges, wich is a problem for galente PVE, because at pve ranges of 20-70km ACs and pulses double the dps of railguns with better tracking. for pvp they can be used as snipers on extreme ranges, and then work mostly fine. i cant propose a good solution to them


ninjaholic
Gallente
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.09 23:30:00 - [17]
 

Imma kill myself. I just cross-trained Amarr BS and guns to all 5 as I hate how useless hybrids are, and now everyone's on the "improve hybrids" train. God damn. I'm all for it, but it couldn't have been 3 months sooner no?

paritybit
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.10 00:15:00 - [18]
 

Not necessarily this exactly; but something like it or what TeaDaze has suggested.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.10 15:25:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 10/11/2010 15:30:48
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev

stuff



1. Size of projectiles got reduced to make it possible to carry different ammos and considering the higher ammo use. This change was done in dominion. Ammo size reduction on hybrid ammo is not needed, since you only need 2 ammo types in general and it is only a issue for longer sniping sessions(aka pos shooting).

2. Reloading time of 10s is fine. Changing ammo mid fight should present some drawbacks.

3. Tracking needs a buff, however the real problem is the web strength. If you want to fix it all with tracking you will create a 25km death zone around any Blaster BS instead of just a 10km(like it was before QR).
This is actually the most important point, what made most blaster ships not perform proper in her niche role to a point where it makes no sense to use them.

4. Null ammo is designed to keep blasters short range, it is not like barrage or scorch.

5. A useless rating, since it is not based on how this parameters scale ingame but only on raw stats. The main problem isn't being far less effective at medium ranges, the problem is about being not better off at point blank.

6. All T2 short range ammos suck.
Problem of the Brutix is not cap in a armor tanked setup, it is the miserable range of electrons and the low speed. Then again the
armor tank bonus is pointless on it anyway, since the myrm does this far better and it totally gimps the only strong point of the brutix.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.10 15:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
As much as i would enjoy shield-piersing, and i am afraid that it might be overpowered. I mean, if you have a drake with 700 dps passive tank, and a ceptor/af with rails tackles it and kills it just by damage bleeding through shield, is that fair? I am not sure


Well, there is already a shield damage bleed effect that is mitigated by Tactical Shield Manipulation.

I'm thinking perhaps the slower-cycling, longer range siege ammunition you're proposing would also have a small shield bleed through (say... 5%... something quite low but enough to spook the targets) whereas the mid range one would not, and the high damage short range charges would again have a shield bleed through but less (3%) - or you could even go one step further and make the possibility of a shield bleed completely random.

This certainly wouldn't be enough to kill a shield tanking ship by any means, but it would provide another niche for hybrid snipers being able to 'soften up' targets more effectively at range.

Reddx Panther
Posted - 2010.11.10 16:21:00 - [21]
 

Good proposal.

One issue that is not touched in the proposal is damage type selection - projectiles have a good selection of damage types while lasers have none. If hybrids were meant to be hybrids, they should have at least a choice between more thermal and more kinetic damage, or another set of damage types (e.g. kin - exp)

Jane Jacobs
Posted - 2010.11.10 17:11:00 - [22]
 

Good proposal. I support the idea.
On the idea of damaging both shields and armor at the same time, may be a little much to ask for. But...perhaps there is a random chance that the hybrid charge will penetrate the shield, although not cause damage to it, and damaging the armor. This effect could have similar chances of damage as how optimal and falloff work. With in optimal you have say a 50% chance of penetrating the shield and damaging armor, and then hull when armor is down. Past optimal the chance decreases similar to the current mechanics of falloff.


Nischara
Posted - 2010.11.10 20:34:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Nischara on 10/11/2010 20:35:15
Originally by: The Djego

4. Null ammo is designed to keep blasters short range, it is not like barrage or scorch.


so, long range ammo is designed to keep range short while incurring heavy penalties on everything except range
and other races are designed to have long range ammo while galente/caldari are designed to be inferior

IF you are right and it's by design then the design is bad and unfair and needs fixing, maybe adding 25% dmg bonus in adition to the current 25% range bonus to null amo would be fine then

Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.10 21:23:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: The Djego
Edited by: The Djego on 10/11/2010 15:30:48
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev

stuff



2. Reloading time of 10s is fine. Changing ammo mid fight should present some drawbacks.



This idea I never understood. With missiles moreso than guns, but a flat 10 second reload on every weapon system seems kind of ill thought out. 10 seconds for a frigate to reload is considerably different than a battleship taking that time to reload.

Meldgaard
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.11.12 15:53:00 - [25]
 

I think the biggest problem with hybrids are that there are no good mid range guns/ammo it you look at must small to mid sized gangs must are fitted to fight at 10-30km at that distance the hybrids are just no good: Blasters cant hit and rails cant do damage compared to other weapon systems there can hit in that range.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:02:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Aineko Macx on 12/11/2010 17:02:56
A proposal on hybrids I can generally agree with. Altho I wonder if all the changes combined would be a bit too much.

TDs idea on reworking the hybrid ammo variation concept is very interesting indeed.

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:53:00 - [27]
 

I agree hybrids could use some love. I like the idea of reworking the ammo, similar to what they did with projectile ammo. Also hybrid ammo needs to be smaller.

Tray LiSans
Posted - 2010.11.12 20:21:00 - [28]
 

I give support to pretty much any attempt to bring attention to hybrids. Some thoughts on this proposal though.

1. The ammo size isn't as much a problem for small and medium ships, but I can remember way too many times when my Rokh ran out of ammo on POS bashes. Large hybrid charges are ridiculously large.

2. If ammo changes are used to boost hybrids similar to how projectiles were changed then I can agree with altering reload times. It's not really that important though.

3. Tracking is one of the many proposed changes for blasters. It makes sense, though I don't think it's going help blasters as much as most people hope.

4. T2 ammo would probably be looked at if ammo changes are made. No big argument here.

5 & 6. I don't like using some arbitrary number to try and dumb down this problem, even if it is derived from the turret damage formula. It's just trying to put too simple a face on too complex a problem.

Also, I wish people would stop suggesting shield penetration. Why are you trying to fix one aspect of the game by demolishing another?

Marley Browning
Posted - 2010.11.12 20:52:00 - [29]
 

Ok guys, I got the solution....

Swap minmatar and gallente play styles. Minmatar gets blasters so they can dodge around with their speed and shield tanks and apply wtf damage. Let them keep their racial ewar with web's and tp's and such. Give gallente projectiles but let them be the slow armor tanking race that they are. They can keep their racial ewar with long points and damps and stuff. It would be awesome. Also gallente still get's drone boats.

Hell we fit auto's on most gallente ships anyway, how bout we give em a bonus for it? I dont care what you say, gallente is under powered. You can ***** stat's all day about dps, range, ehp and cap consumption but you cant deny that 90% of the ships you see are either non gallente or an ishtar/domi/myrm. Proteus's are sweet but rather rare.

Blasters should be setup where you can disengage if you want to similar to how minmatar is setup. With close range projectile ships, you can either fight at range or go nano and get in close with the ability to disengage. Close range hybrids dont offer you this choice because of the ships they are tied to. With minmatar getting hybrids, they can get in close and fight but can also dictate range if needed because of their high speed and shield tank. Gallente wont be able to dictate range but their guns will be much more effective considering their ship attributes.

You can justify it by saying some crap like "gallente and minmatar are bff's now and like to tell each other their deepest darkest secrets regarding weapon bonus's or something". I dont know, i dont care but fix something.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2010.11.12 21:35:00 - [30]
 

Ok guys i have the real solution!

This topic has been posted several times before in the assembly hall. Please read the sticky of hot topics of the Assembly Hall before posting repeated topics. There are two hybrid topics already floating around in there. One for rails and one for blasters. Please post in those threads rather than making new topics.


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