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Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:59:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
The server must be authoritative.


It needn't be. That's the whole point. If the server cannot handle what the players throw at it at regular intervals; it's not up to spec.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Eve can be played over a 28.8 modem - and I've personally played it across my cell phone under 2g service. That's ****ing cool.


It can, but the number of people affected by disabling that possibility will be far less than were affected by turning off the low graphics version of the client.

Quote:
That's an expensive proposition you have there


I know, hence why I say it's not one that could or should be implementend.

Quote:
stupid, insulting, and ******ed.


It's none of the three. If you've nothing constructive to say... what is it the kids say now? GTFO, HTFO and BNFL?



Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:04:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2010 23:05:47
Originally by: Muul Udonii
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The server must be authoritative.


It needn't be. That's the whole point. If the server cannot handle what the players throw at it at regular intervals; it's not up to spec.
...
a bunch of other stupid ****.



You're asking to transmit incredible amounts of data across the wire to offload processing to the players. That's simply ******ed, even before you get into the question of what to do when players intentionally throttle giving your data back or give corrupt data.

-Liang

Ed: In case you can't tell, I DO write large scale distributed applications for a living.

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:05:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
First time lag has seriously bothered me, but it's actually as bad as everyone has said it is. Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.

CCP, either actively prevent us forming the fleet the size we need to given your game mechanics, or get a better server. Just limit the population of a system to 100 people if that's all it can handle.


I have proof that TQ is running on a single server.

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:06:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Alyth
Stuff


Way to take some bits of what I said and misrepresent them.

Anyway, bored of arguing the points now; you don't have to agree with or like what I have to say about how the game is written and how it could be written; but it doesn't change the fact that YOU were the one who clicked on a post called 'Fix The ****ing Game already' and were apparantly appalled that people think there are problems with it.

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:10:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
You're asking to transmit incredible amounts of data across the wire to offload processing to the players. That's simply ******ed, even before you get into the question of what to do when players intentionally throttle giving your data back or give corrupt data.


Not really. It's the same data; the local client simply does the calculations for the server.

As for hacking, if people really managed it, it would be detectable anyway like macros are, and well done to them.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:16:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You're asking to transmit incredible amounts of data across the wire to offload processing to the players. That's simply ******ed, even before you get into the question of what to do when players intentionally throttle giving your data back or give corrupt data.


Not really. It's the same data; the local client simply does the calculations for the server.

As for hacking, if people really managed it, it would be detectable anyway like macros are, and well done to them.


There is an enormous amount of data - from the other players' healths to cloaked players' positions and the actual algorithms used - that is not and should not be passed to the players. Again, that completely neglects the latency costs in getting that data to the players and them getting it back to you. For example, CCP asking me personally to process any data would cost them about a second to get the answer - even if I didn't intentionally **** it up. So can you wait 1 second to see if you hit another player?

And like I said - that completely neglects that the players WILL cheat.

-Liang

Leil Ren'Do
Posted - 2010.10.27 23:52:00 - [37]
 

Muul Udonii, I don't know if you're trolling or really that sad.
In any case, please for your own sake, go away and post on another game's forum.

MailOrder RussianBride
Posted - 2010.10.28 01:12:00 - [38]
 

@Muul Udonii- IF you can do it better...

Then go and do it better. Apply for a job. Start a rival game. Something...

But you won't.

GateScout
Posted - 2010.10.28 01:25:00 - [39]
 

[WTB] A linear solution to an O(n^2) problem. Rolling Eyes

Let me know when you get this solved. There will be a Nobel waiting for you.




Jennifer Drama
Posted - 2010.10.28 01:30:00 - [40]
 

Someone help! I can't tell if Muul is trolling!!! Can someone really be that dumb Crying or Very sad

Please, educate yourself Muul. Yes there is lag still, but you don't know better. You are wrong. Oh, so incredibly wrong. You will never be right either. You just aren't very smart. Sorry kiddo, them's the breaks. Sad

Please don't forget the ketchup with my fries. Thanks.

Fishsticks Fred
Posted - 2010.10.28 03:04:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Fishsticks Fred on 28/10/2010 03:08:32
Muul, like the rest of us, I'm not sure if you're ******ed or just trolling. If trolling, congrats, you managed to troll Liang... Rolling EyesLaughing

Personally, I don't do programming for a living, never mind large scale distributed ****, but I do enough of it in my spare time to know that you are ****ed. Just to sum this thread up, Liang basically pwnt you.

edit: Not only do you understand nothing of programming, but how the Eve cluster works in general.

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2010.10.28 03:21:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, CCP is working on methods by which they can solve the problem better than you have suggested here.

-Liang


yeah, like seeing the possibility of making the drake less attractive because of missiles lagging the server!

pro solution!

ps: also deal with itugh

Fishsticks Fred
Posted - 2010.10.28 03:24:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, CCP is working on methods by which they can solve the problem better than you have suggested here.

-Liang

yeah, like seeing the possibility of making the drake less attractive because of missiles lagging the server!

pro solution!
ps: also deal with itugh

at the risk of making it look like I'm sucking Liang's ****, he is right. CCP is looking into splitting a system across multiple cores/nodes, but apparently it's taking ~a while~. (Which makes sense, it's pretty complicated*)

*oh yeah, understatement.

Scott Ryder
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.10.28 05:10:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Scott Ryder on 28/10/2010 05:15:15
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2010 23:05:47
Originally by: Muul Udonii
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The server must be authoritative.


It needn't be. That's the whole point. If the server cannot handle what the players throw at it at regular intervals; it's not up to spec.
...
a bunch of other stupid ****.



You're asking to transmit incredible amounts of data across the wire to offload processing to the players. That's simply ******ed, even before you get into the question of what to do when players intentionally throttle giving your data back or give corrupt data.

-Liang

Ed: In case you can't tell, I DO write large scale distributed applications for a living.


Everyone playing online games are either lawyers or programmers :)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.28 06:22:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Scott Ryder
Everyone playing online games are either lawyers or programmers :)


And some of us are actually good at it. Wink

-Liang

Blasphemour
Posted - 2010.10.28 07:40:00 - [46]
 

Having the client calculate anything would open it up to hacks and cheats, would cause a latency higher than Mt. Everest and would create a huge bandwith problem for alot of people.

CCP is working on lag. It has improved. I've seen battle reports that told stories of nearly no lag with 700~800 people in system. This doesn't mean that every large fleet fight will be lag free or nearly lag free, since they are not finished.

Yes there are issues, yes there are bugs, yes it can be annoying sometimes.
Don't stuff 1000+ players in one system, all using drones/fighters/fighter bombers, making the number of 'entities' in the system probably close to 5000 or even more. Now you go write code that can do THAT while still maintaining playability for the other 54.000 players in the game.

If you can make a game as awesome as EVE with such possibilities, without making it vulnerable for client hacks, (or nearly invulnerable), I'll come and play.

Otherwise STFU, GTFO.

Lady Parity
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.10.28 10:22:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
*rams 1100 people in to a single system
*experiences lag
*whines about it as if it is unexpected

*is NC


So like when I whine about NC being useless blobbing everything until the node crashes its "wrong and bad" but when you repeat it its fine.

NC are always recruiting more hypocrits and noobs, I think you should apply!

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.10.28 10:35:00 - [48]
 

I was there. The lag was horrible. The lag was expected.

Thing is, it still wasn't as bad as I was afraid it would be. There is a definite improvement compared to what we had the first days post-Dominion, and if CCP turns performance up just one more notch, then we might actually see fights like the 1300-ones in 49-u.

Props to CCP for working hard on this.

Additionally, I would like to say good fight to the Ruskies.Smile

Manipulator General
o.0
Posted - 2010.10.28 10:37:00 - [49]
 

At this point complaining is pointless. Your options are limited to tolerating it, or leaving.

Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.10.28 10:41:00 - [50]
 

Tbh we were 700ish in fountain yesterday and it was ok.
Not as good as during Apocrypha but still ok

Lag seemed to clear when grid dropped below 450ish ships.

Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.28 11:19:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: PeveS
[18:46:59] CCP Warlock > Is this a good time to ask about lag :)

Rolling Eyes


give them a ****ing break and play the game the way it is, or move on.


Seconded. CCP GAVE you EVE. You wanna keep playing? Then keep critisism constructive.

Danks
Caldari
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
Posted - 2010.10.28 12:07:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.


Congrats sir, this if officially the stupidest thing I have seen posted on these boards in 7 years. Give yourself a cookie.


Tramlaw Trub
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.10.28 12:51:00 - [53]
 

Right on, Muul! They should totally throw some SOA up in that ***** too, yo.

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.28 13:35:00 - [54]
 

poor guy....but it is a common point of "if you are not 100% sure you are right don't insist you are"

I personally am not afraid to be wrong and I am glad if someone proves me wrong so I learn something new (and I will discuss until I am proven wrong/right) but I am never as arrogant to assume that I am right no matter what. That would make backing down honorably even more difficult

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.10.28 15:32:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Hyveres
[...]
Lag seemed to clear when grid dropped below 450ish ships.


Those of you who still play (regularily) better make it count. Next expansion seems incoming mid-November already. And the experiences from the couple past ones (expansions/patches) tend to lead to the expectation of not too much fun for some time after that day... Laughing

Murev Vorchilde
Caldari
End Game.
Posted - 2010.10.28 16:23:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Scott Ryder
Edited by: Scott Ryder on 28/10/2010 05:15:15
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2010 23:05:47
Originally by: Muul Udonii
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The server must be authoritative.


It needn't be. That's the whole point. If the server cannot handle what the players throw at it at regular intervals; it's not up to spec.
...
a bunch of other stupid ****.



You're asking to transmit incredible amounts of data across the wire to offload processing to the players. That's simply ******ed, even before you get into the question of what to do when players intentionally throttle giving your data back or give corrupt data.

-Liang

Ed: In case you can't tell, I DO write large scale distributed applications for a living.


Everyone playing online games are either lawyers or programmers :)


Not supprising for a game also known as spreadsheets-online
why a non IT professional would enjoy this game is beyond me Cool

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.10.28 17:19:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Danks
Originally by: Muul Udonii
Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.


Congrats sir, this if officially the stupidest thing I have seen posted on these boards in 7 years. Give yourself a cookie.




not been playing 7 years danks but i agree with you.

muul if you can do it then apply

Joe Phoenix
The Commonwealth Federation
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:12:00 - [58]
 

Sure we would play, if we could stay connected for more then 2 minutes.Rolling Eyes

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:19:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: cpu939
Originally by: Danks
Originally by: Muul Udonii
Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.


Congrats sir, this if officially the stupidest thing I have seen posted on these boards in 7 years. Give yourself a cookie.




not been playing 7 years danks but i agree with you.

muul if you can do it then apply



While that may be the most concentrated excerpt of idiocy I've ever seen, his other posts are well worth reading for the "facepalming because I'm so embarrased for you" factor.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:06:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Alyth
Originally by: Muul Udonii
First time lag has seriously bothered me, but it's actually as bad as everyone has said it is. Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.



Sure you could, anyone can. However, can you write code that would let 1000 people with different ships, skills and fittings start locking each other, and then let said code handle on average 7000 individual guns, again all with different reload cycles, ammo inventories, hit/miss calculations and damage calculations as well as every single ship on grids positional updates. Then can you allow said code to account for the unpredicatability of players dropping locks, launching drones, being jammed, cycling modules, reloading (and therefore accessing both the ships inventory and the each guns inventory) exploading causing damage checks on every module fitted on the ship and then another two inventory updates along with populating a wreck, warping out etc?

I'm no fanboi by far but it's really frigging irritating that people say stuff like that without half a clue as to whats actually going on.


In heroes of might and magic it is called stacking unit type into one stack... 250 archers, 500 pikeman, 70 Nagas...

CCP should handle fleet fights in TURN based strategy mode!

70 abaddon, 10 NYX, 50 tackle vs ... 10 AEONs, 60 Apocs, 35 EWAR ... 3 stacks no code


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