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Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:45:00 - [1]
 

Looking to start my t3 skill tree and purchasing reasonable fits for a t3.

I am reading the latest posts, and what I see is that the Tengu is most discussed.

Is Caldari the FOTM, or is it the best bang for the buck?
I understand the fit dynamics for the Tengu, but was hoping for more than missiles.

Me, I like pew pew lasers and drone fits. Two things that are not Caldari compatible, but I do not see much on the other t3 boats that makes me think they are worth L4 mission runners w/o the gankmagnet bonus.

Vengeance Manifested
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:51:00 - [2]
 

I don't think you will find a T3 setup that out-performs many Battleships purely for lvl 4 missions. Train for a marauder instead :)

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:00:00 - [3]
 

Sorry, not just L4 missions...

I can fly a BS okay, but find them slow, and less interesting than cruisers.

I really am wanting to discuss the current opinions on the t3 ships available, and why the Caldari boat is most discussed.

Is it that the Tengu delivers better results, or that the others are a secret regarding their abilities and fits?

Disclosure: Yes, I am a nooblet who has not played EVE since beta. I have a lot to learn, and no, flaming me won't change my curiosity as to why the Tengu is the FOTM (or is it?)...

Eris Olympian
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:15:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Vengeance Manifested
I don't think you will find a T3 setup that out-performs many Battleships purely for lvl 4 missions. Train for a marauder instead :)
Tengu beats any BS and even golem in most lvl4 missions... There is just few short ranged missions where golem is faster than tengu..

Vengeance Manifested
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:17:00 - [5]
 

well it really does rely heavily on what the intended use of the T3 is

as to why the tengu is "possibly" (altho not imo) FoTM, it's probably the same reason caracels and drakes are also often considered FoTM in there respective classes, the ability to fling missiles from long range with the speed to effectively maintain that range advantage. My only personal experience of flying T3's is a buffer proteus, which I must say is a wonderful ship providing you have plenty of logistic support. I know a few amarr enthusiasts who say the legion is terrible, and from what I've seen the Loki is nothing spectacular either.

That said, if you are building a fit for a certain purpose I'm pretty sure they can all excell at something. By there very nature "strategic cruisers" are incredibly versatile and to varying degrees each can perform almost any role, be it pure gank / mission runner / EWAR platform / cloaky scout / heavy tackle / transport ship.

Not sure if thats helpful at all, if you are looking for more specific things, such as a fit for a particular purpose then be a bit more specific and maybe I (or some1 else) can help you out.

Vengeance Manifested
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:27:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Eris Olympian
Originally by: Vengeance Manifested
I don't think you will find a T3 setup that out-performs many Battleships purely for lvl 4 missions. Train for a marauder instead :)
Tengu beats any BS and even golem in most lvl4 missions... There is just few short ranged missions where golem is faster than tengu..


I'm not really in a position to argue with this , seeing as I've never flown a tengu or a golem in level 4 missions (or at all come to think of it) however, I struggle to see how a tengu could match the DPS of a golem, not to mention the marauders salvaging bonus. When I said out-perform, I meant in terms of isk / hour of running level 4's ... and I still stand by my statement.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:28:00 - [7]
 

The Tengu is definately the T3 to aim for in terms of straight fighting.

The very best thing about it is it's ability to delivery reasonably high dps across alot of space. Other T3's can do more damage, but not at the distances the tengu can.

Also, it can tank as well as a rattle snake.

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:41:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Headerman
The Tengu is definitely the T3 to aim for in terms of straight fighting.

The very best thing about it is it's ability to delivery reasonably high dps across a lot of space. Other T3's can do more damage, but not at the distances the tengu can.

Also, it can tank as well as a rattle snake.


This makes me wonder if the Tengu is a general "all-around" versatile ship while the others are more narrowly focused.

dammit, I like lazors!
Anyone know a good combat fit for other t3 ships besides the Tengu?
At least looking over the fits, I can get a better idea of utility...

Vengeance Manifested
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tactical Miner


dammit, I like lazors!
Anyone know a good combat fit for other t3 ships besides the Tengu?
At least looking over the fits, I can get a better idea of utility...



again, what kind of combat?

lvl 4s?
exploration / combat sites?
ratting - lowsec / nullsec?
pvp - solo / small gang / large gang?

there really are no "one fit to rule them all" (:sorry, had to:) with any ship in eve, especially T3's.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tactical Miner

Me, I like pew pew lasers and drone fits. Two things that are not Caldari compatible, but I do not see much on the other t3 boats that makes me think they are worth L4 mission runners w/o the gankmagnet bonus.



Because there is no good drone subsystem in T3s. Sure Proteus can get 4x heavy drones but thats it. Ishtar will still be better drone boat. Ofc there are drone-centric PvP fits for proteus but its because proteus can fit OMG-stupidly huge buffer tank which eats most of its grid and lowslots - thus its better to get 500ish dps with drones and few guns + 500k buffer rather than 700dps and 250k buffer (i do fly blaster gank-proteus tho).

When it comes to legion and drones... just get a curse. Same amount of drones, curse has much better nosferatu/neut system (legion gets only suck amount, doesnt get range).

When it comez to lazors - legion is exactly like zealot with +1 turret and 3x more EHP. Nothing too stellar, especially when you compare it to tengu.

To do quick sum-up:

PVE:
tengu > legion > loki =?= proteus (not sure about last 2). Legion mostly shines in wormholes (no ammo use), when it comes to LV4 missions its actually kinda crapastic and you will be better off using battleships (where tengu can actually outrun battleships on few missions).

PVP:
proteus > tengu > loki =?= legion (again, hard to say which one is better - loki is more of an utility gang ship, legion is sacri+ or zealot+).

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:17:00 - [11]
 

Nice tl;dr summation.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

To do quick sum-up:

PVE:
tengu > legion > loki =?= proteus (not sure about last 2). Legion mostly shines in wormholes (no ammo use), when it comes to LV4 missions its actually kinda crapastic and you will be better off using battleships (where tengu can actually outrun battleships on few missions).

PVP:
proteus > tengu > loki =?= legion (again, hard to say which one is better - loki is more of an utility gang ship, legion is sacri+ or zealot+).


Thanks!
This really helps identify why the Tengu is the FoTM, and most likely the year.

To be more specific, I want this to be useful for just about everything but PvP specific. I see your point with the L4 mission runner, but wanted to know more about why the other boats are less discussed.

The drone boat idea is wasted on the S-cruiser; I see that now. No point if the drones are not worthy of being part of a t3 ship, just to dish out t2 damage.

Total ignorance question of the day:
Can the subsystems of a Tengu be fitted to handle lasers? In WH space, it's hard to come across ammo. It'd be nice to pew pew with lasers for WH work w/o ammo interruptions.


Amaha Masane
Caldari
Avalon Advanced Research and Development
Eclectic Collective
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:25:00 - [12]
 

Oddly enough, WH PvE is one of the roles that a legion is pretty good at. If you're more spec'd for lasers and joining a WH corp is one of your long term goals, then yes, a Legion might be viable for you. just be ready to fly around a bit once your scorch crystals burn out and you have to use regular t1 crystals. ^_^

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:27:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/10/2010 00:32:54
If you want lasers its pretty much only legion. Sure, proteus can use them too (even 6 of them) but loses damage bonus (50% at lv5), range bonus (50%) and cap use (guessed it - 50%). So not really worth it.

There is a gunnery subsystem for Tengu but its so bad i wouldnt touch it with 10metre pole. You prolly could put 6 lasers on tengu (i think it can get 6 gun slots) but it might hit grid issues, cap issues and ofc damage issues (lack of legion bonuses).

As for discussion: as always, people tend to discuss PVE setups the most = tengu. Even tho proteus is best PVP strat cruiser you dont really see prot threads everywhere, only tengus.

As for drones... its kinda weird. You just need to remember that max you will get is 4 heavy drones/sentries plus 4 (i think) guns. So you are much more dependant on your guns than say ishtar. On the other hand prot gets much better tank than any ishtar out there. Active tank? i managed to get around 1600dps stable tank against sansha on t2 fit. Quite possibly it can do better. Ishtar doesnt even get close to those numbers. Same for buffer: its 1600mm on ishtar vs 2x 1600mm + 800mm PLUS 50% armor amount bonus on proteus. Easy to see which one is a brick.

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:30:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Amaha Masane
Oddly enough, WH PvE is one of the roles that a legion is pretty good at. If you're more spec'd for lasers and joining a WH corp is one of your long term goals, then yes, a Legion might be viable for you. just be ready to fly around a bit once your scorch crystals burn out and you have to use regular t1 crystals. ^_^


m3/shot is not a problem for carrying spare scorch crystals. Equivalent for missiles requires expanded cargo hold.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:33:00 - [15]
 

And lots of isk if you plan on using CN ammo :X My tengu alt got ROF under 4 seconds on heavy launchers iirc (3x DG BCU, t2 launchers, some implants).

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:50:00 - [16]
 

Is the Tengu Engineering subsystem "Cap Regen Matrix" a typo?

"5% reduction in capacitor recharge rate per level"

I would hope that's wrong, unless I'm missing something.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:53:00 - [17]
 

Weird description like always. It means that your capacitor recharges faster (5% faster per level)

Fist1
Hostile Alcoholic Commanders
Posted - 2010.10.16 03:37:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Eris Olympian
Originally by: Vengeance Manifested
I don't think you will find a T3 setup that out-performs many Battleships purely for lvl 4 missions. Train for a marauder instead :)
Tengu beats any BS and even golem in most lvl4 missions... There is just few short ranged missions where golem is faster than tengu..


Just posting to say this could very well change in the near future. Devs are talking about allowing MWD's in all missions again therefore torp boats will be back on top of the isk/hr and will lead by a large margin.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.10.16 10:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

PVP:
proteus > tengu > loki =?= legion (again, hard to say which one is better - loki is more of an utility gang ship, legion is sacri+ or zealot+).


I would definately disagree with this.

The Tengu does well because it can use heavy missiles which give out very good dps at very long ranges with all four dmg types (kinetic obviously best with AEB off sub). Close range it has assault missiles, which will increase DPS. More EWAR resistant than other weapon systems too.

The Proteus is has too much of a limited range/dmg type with blasters and doesn't have the speed to dictate range. If you can get and stay close in, you can do awesome damage - big IF though. The FEP subsystem does give it a role though, but you can't help thinking a recon would do it better.

The Loki, whilst not having the range of the Tengu, can still offer different dmg types, has the speed and the web bonus to totally dictate range and can be armor or shield tanked depending on situation. Also, the skirmish leadership bonuses are the best for small gang escapades.

The Legion is gimped by limited speed,dps & dmg types amongst other things. Definately the worst PVP ship of the 4.

For PVP, I would say the Loki is the best overall in that it's great solo and offers great small fleet bonuses.

I would say for solo work, The loki is top, with the Tengu/Loki being top for gang work (in totally different ways though). The Proteus 'could' be great, but it's way to reliant on getting up close - the same as all blaster ships.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:16:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/10/2010 11:18:57
Flown both Tengu and Proteus in pvp long enough to actually know which one is better. Tengu sure, looks nice on paper (700dps from zero to 120km) but... so what? You need to tackle stuff and that brings you closer to enemies = to counter tackle. And Tengu tank isnt rly that stellar (130k ehp if you go buffer, t2 rigs). Proteus can easily get 160k with t2 rigs plus 750dps to boot. And most importantly - it does have 21km scrambler (overheated TS) creating huge threat zone. This above is crap-proteus tho. The proper ones (drone+plated beasts) have less DPS (around 550) BUT they do have sick amount of EHPs. 250k on t2 rigged one. 500k with slaves is not unheard of. Friend had over 1 mil EHP on his prot just for lolz. You can be almost sure it will not die unless titan takes pot-shot at it or he gets bumped away from gate (which is kinda hard to do on cruiser hull in 1st place if pilot has a clue).

Ofc it all depends on combat type. I used my T3s mostly in lowsec (sometimes 0.0) gatecamp breaking and for hisec empire wars, so in places i know i can get out when things get hot. Also most often than not i did use logistic ship on alt, its just too huge force multipler to pass it by (thats why i also used 90k ehp HAM tengu, 920dps is kinda funny from cruiser).

For roams i can agree - loki/tengu is much better. Myself i prefer bomber for roams tho :)

As for proteus/blaster "issue" - its non-existant. If you fly blasterboat you know you need to be up enemy face. Thats why you get both MWD bonus and scrambler range bonus along with decent speed while plated and huge EHPs. I really cant remember if i had the problem to get into range even once, prolly not. IMO prot is just one of best blasterboats in game - getting exactly what blasters need. And yeh i do ignore "forum blaster whiners" - seems as if half of em never actually flown blasterboat or proteus.

Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2010.10.16 16:12:00 - [21]
 

Have flown Legion in PVP & PVE mode. In high sec LOL pvp, the Legion in Super Curse mode is a nasty little brawler and gets a bad rep. Cool by me as it just keeps 'em cheap and no one seems to be afraid of them. In PVE, against Sansha/Bloods it's fun and a fine selection if you're in no hurry to train Lg pulse/beam to T2. I do think that a properly skilled Navy Apoc (what I run EM missions with) will smoke it for mission running. I'm speculating, but I can't help but think a Pally or Nightmare is on another level entirely.

OTOH, the Legion is very affordable, and reasonably easy to train for. It is an excellent PVE ship for WH action, and should plex very well in Amarr space. If you enjoy medium lasers, I don't think you'll be disappointed by it at all. I'm of the opinion that the apathy that players seem to have for the T2 Caldari cruisers is a large contributing factor to the Tengu's perceived awesome factor. The Amarr T2 cruisers (Recons and HACs) are for the most part, very popular and don't seem as marginalized by the Legion. So, if you're going to be seeing mostly EM susceptible NPCs, I think you'll dig it.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.16 16:25:00 - [22]
 

Tengu doesnt obsolete any of t2 caldari cruisers...

Cerb is different role (and no tengu setup can match it in long range barrage due to cerb having 2x 10% range bonus and tengu only 1x 10%).
Eagle is probably outmatched by tengu (but im not 100% sure, i dont have rails on alt so never used caldari rail-snipers)
Rook is different role (better jams, lower damage)
Falcon is different role (better jams, lol damage)
Basilisk is obviously different role (long-range logis)
Nighthawk (yes, t2 BC) is kinda obsolete by Tengu (as tengu is in fact better NH, BUT NH has drones and hits frigs better)
Vulture is obsolete when Tengu is near

H3llHound
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.10.16 19:24:00 - [23]
 

I wonder what FOTM T3 changes the T2 ammo nerf will bring...

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.17 03:22:00 - [24]
 

I am not a blasterboat kind of player. I do like the range of the beam lasers, and have them trained up sufficiently to have fun.

From what I am hearing, either the Tengu or the Legion is what I am looking for. They both fit my play style.



Seriously? aMega EHP? Did I read that correctly? Noob question - How?


 

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