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Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:38:00 - [1]
 

I realise the second you start shoot the timer starts coutning on your overall dps so you cant do more dps than on the paper stats, but does approching increase your dps?

thinking about it makes me go cross eyed

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:42:00 - [2]
 

Translation: If I fly really fast at the guy I'm shooting with missiles, since the missiles technically are hitting him more rapidly (Doppler effect), do I do more damage?

knickersoffalot
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:42:00 - [3]
 

no

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:47:00 - [4]
 

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes...


Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.10.16 02:02:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: knickersoffalot
no


Actually, you do.

Slightly before my time, but I remember stories about dive-bombing torp ravens back when you could fit multple mwds.

Though, today you'd find the benefit pretty small.

ROXGenghis
Perkone
Posted - 2010.10.16 02:29:00 - [6]
 

CAVALRY RAVEN

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.16 03:12:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
CAVALRY RAVEN

Jintra Jin'tak
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.10.16 06:28:00 - [8]
 

DPS will be increased for the first odd volleys (those which will be hitting your target in shorter-ish order) or just the Alpha (if ship-speed = missile-speed) will be bigger for the first impact.

Also: Weren't cavalry ravens fitted with beams to melt shields while approaching and spamming explo-torps for godly alpha? ('09 so never became the chance to fly one)

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.16 06:31:00 - [9]
 

generally the idea was merely to artificially inflate alpha by flying as fast as your missiles - I dont think there was any particular magical fits to it.. but at one point lasers were standard on most ships anyway Laughing


Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.10.16 07:14:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
CAVALRY RAVEN


This is actually proof, that apptoaching will lower ypur dps.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2010.10.16 07:54:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 16/10/2010 07:56:11
Originally by: Jintra Jin'tak
DPS will be increased for the first odd volleys (those which will be hitting your target in shorter-ish order) or just the Alpha (if ship-speed = missile-speed) will be bigger for the first impact.

Also: Weren't cavalry ravens fitted with beams to melt shields while approaching and spamming explo-torps for godly alpha? ('09 so never became the chance to fly one)

They didn't need to, back then torps had a flight time of several minutes(iirc) and had a top speed of around 1000m/s, if you started at range you could get nasty nasty blobs of deathTwisted Evil. Stripping shields before hand just wasn't needed.

*edit: ah the good old days, sometimes I miss em.*

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.10.16 10:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: William Cooly
Translation: If I fly really fast at the guy I'm shooting with missiles, since the missiles technically are hitting him more rapidly (Doppler effect), do I do more damage?


Of course. Approaching blueshifts your missiles, increasing your DPS. Running away redshifts it.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
CAVALRY RAVEN

Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
Posted - 2010.10.16 13:17:00 - [14]
 

Yes.

As long as the range to your target is decreasing, the dps will be higher than when at a fixed range.
As long as the range is increasing, the dps will be lower.

How much of a difference it makes, depends on your relative speed to the target, and the projectiles velocity. With a slow ship and fast missiles, it will hardly be noticeable.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2010.10.16 14:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
CAVALRY RAVEN

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.10.16 18:58:00 - [16]
 

Wow I never thought of using the Doppler effect with missiles ... that's awesome!

This thread is win

Sonya Kranz
Posted - 2010.10.16 22:39:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Sonya Kranz on 16/10/2010 22:43:18
This is defenitely an interesting thread...

edit: never thought of that, but it does seem like it would work for the first few salvos

Ateab792
Posted - 2010.10.17 02:08:00 - [18]
 

Yes, but your dps also goes down with missiles while you are flying away from them :)

Elder Lemon
Posted - 2010.10.17 02:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tactical Miner
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes...



BLASPHAMY! The phrase goes as such... "I dont need a fast ship, i can hit you from here"

Pict1on
Caldari
Coalition of the Crowned Kingdoms
Saints Amongst Sinners
Posted - 2010.10.17 05:12:00 - [20]
 

i have flown dive-bomb ravens dual mwdx2+passivetargeter+resists+sensor booster that was the recipie for a dive-bomb raven just set your max speed to you're missile speed and start firing at 130kms out and alpha bs's on once you passed it.. :D

mwd back out to range (doing few km's) and selecting your next trip thrugh the enemy gang :D

Augustus Cringer
Posted - 2010.10.17 18:08:00 - [21]
 

Think about the missiles in the air as stored DPS. If you are at point-blank range, then you do not have any stored DPS. In a HAM drake, sitting at almost 18k (with terror rage loaded), you have about 6.5secs of stored damage, which can be over 4k damage depending on fit and skill.

When you dive in with an overloaded MWD to close the distance, you are getting your DPS back: the faster you close the gap, the faster the damage is recovered, which means more DPS over a shorter period of time.

Assuming immediate acceleration, the calculation is:
Percentage DPS increase=(ship velocity/missile velocity)*100

More realistically:
Average percentage DPS increase=(missile flight time to target/ship flight time to target)*100

On paper, for a HAM drake (non-nano, with OL MWD), this is about a 50% increase in dps over 12s. In practice, it will take much longer than that to get up to speed and close the gap, so, although the additional damage amount will be the same, the DPS increase will be closer to around 30-40% over 16-20secs, which is multiplicative with the DPS increase from OL.
If for example you were having trouble breaking someone's passive tank, you could open range to max missile range (storing DPS in the process) and wait for DPS to stabilize, hopefully close to 33% shields (for missiles, effective DPS approaches paper DPS with time). Then, just approach the target, overload launchers and MWD and dive right in. The extra DPS might be enough to push you over the max shield recharge point (if the target was for example a passive drake, 4k damage can be ~10% of effective shield capacity).

In practice, that only works if the target is not shooting back (maybe jammed) and doesn't have support. Likewise, it might be easier to just call a buddy to help bring him down (neuts ftw).

Mini T
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.17 18:23:00 - [22]
 

Wow, I have learned more about missile damage reading this than I have in four months of training!

Thanks for the great info guys. I had alwasy wondered about this, since it looked like my damage increased when I was closing range, especially in a faster boat. Clears up a lot for me.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.18 00:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Pict1on
i have flown dive-bomb ravens dual mwdx2+passivetargeter+resists+sensor booster that was the recipie for a dive-bomb raven just set your max speed to you're missile speed and start firing at 130kms out and alpha bs's on once you passed it.. :D

mwd back out to range (doing few km's) and selecting your next trip thrugh the enemy gang :D


Eve surely lacks some fun tactics nowadays :X

The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.10.18 12:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III

Of course. Approaching blueshifts your missiles, increasing your DPS. Running away redshifts it.



Aaah I do love the proper use of terminology and tech.

10/10 as per.

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2010.10.18 15:16:00 - [25]
 

Thanks for the responces!

Okay so we are all agreed that approching while shooting will increase the dps between the first missile hitting and you arriving at the target.

Now for the part that makes me go cross eyed....

How would one go about calculating how much that extra dps is?

If my stats were as follows for a 100km start distance to target:
2km/s approch speed, 8km/s missiles, 4 sec rof and 2k volly

How would i find out what extra dps i do?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.18 16:09:00 - [26]
 

f = [(v+vₐ) / (v+vₑ)] × f₀

Where:
v = velocity of the missile
vₐ = velocity of the target
vₑ = velocity of the shooter
f₀ = frequency of shots

…then recalculate your DPS depending on that observed frequency of missiles fired. Razz

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources
Posted - 2010.10.18 16:28:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Arbiter Reformed on 18/10/2010 16:31:35
yes, just like wavelengths, ie when a ambulance goes past it sounds higher coming towards you and then lower as it passes

if you fly 10% the speed of the missile missiles would do 10% more damage just as you would do 10% less if you were flying away at 10% of the missile speed.

Real Poison
Minmatar
Stormlord Battleforce
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.10.18 16:55:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tippia
f = [(v+vₐ) / (v+vₑ)] × f₀

Where:
v = velocity of the missile
vₐ = velocity of the target
vₑ = velocity of the shooter
f₀ = frequency of shots

…then recalculate your DPS depending on that observed frequency of missiles fired. Razz


while this theory sounds scientifically founded.
this is based on the assumption that missile speed would be affected by the speed of the launching vessel which obviously doesn't exist in the game.

the only effect for in-game i see is that the alpha gets applied a little bit earlier. but that is just the effect of being closer to target in the first place.

everything else is direction and velocity of the target.

so your only chance to really raise dps is to have your target move towards your missiles to neutralize escape velocity compared to running away from them.

Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
Posted - 2010.10.18 17:21:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tippia
f = [(v+vₐ) / (v+vₑ)] × f₀

Where:
v = velocity of the missile
vₐ = velocity of the target
vₑ = velocity of the shooter
f₀ = frequency of shots

…then recalculate your DPS depending on that observed frequency of missiles fired. Razz
Dps is a frequency, no need for recalculation. You can just use the same formula.

And maybe I'm just tired, but I can't make that equation work. Shouldn't it be:

f = v / [v - vₑ] x f₀
where vₑ = shooters radial velocity to the target.

Since the speed of the target does not matter (as long as you can hit him).


Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
Posted - 2010.10.18 17:44:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Muad 'dib
Thanks for the responces!

Okay so we are all agreed that approching while shooting will increase the dps between the first missile hitting and you arriving at the target.

Now for the part that makes me go cross eyed....

How would one go about calculating how much that extra dps is?

If my stats were as follows for a 100km start distance to target:
2km/s approch speed, 8km/s missiles, 4 sec rof and 2k volly

How would i find out what extra dps i do?
If you are up to speed when you start firing, you would have 133% of your stationary dps from when the first volley hits until the last one.

So not knowing the flight time of the missiles, you would do no damage for 12.5s then 666 dps until you reload (or reach the target after 50s).


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