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xXxCCxXx
Ray of Matar Assembly
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:24:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Xaen
So, it only took you FOUR YEARS to listen to reason.



<3


yeh 4 years...

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:28:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Barakkus on 14/10/2010 21:33:36
Originally by: Tippia
Yes, that. It is now possible to bind shortcuts to almost any key on your keyboard (with the exception of some reserved keys like ENTER, ESC, etc.). No longer will you be forced to include mod keys (CTRL, ALT and SHIFT) in your shortcuts (even though you still can of course).
This, however, is bad news. Pressing ENTER to… well… enter chat mode is pretty much standard for a crapton of MMOs, and it also creates a good "UI rhythm": <enter> lol n00b <enter>


The enter key may not be the best choice for EVE since enter is actually used a few places like entering an amount in a dialog and hitting enter to confirm it. Most MMOs (as far as I can tell) don't have that kind of interaction with the enter key, hence the reason for it activating the chat window.

edit: I hate reading entire threads before replying to a post lol, guess it was already mentioned...


On a side note, and I'm sure been mentioned already....

LAUCH DRONES NEEDS A HOTKEY! :P

Lord Matrix
Flying Banana Squad
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:34:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
The enter key may not be the best choice for EVE since enter is actually used a few places like entering an amount in a dialog and hitting enter to confirm it. Most MMOs (as far as I can tell) don't have that kind of interaction with the enter key, hence the reason for it activating the chat window.
In that case pressing Enter would submit the form, like it does now. You can still click on the chat window if you want to chat while entering a new price for your sell order. Like in web applications, events (pressing a key) can be nested and the active window is the top listener and then it slowly goes to the bottom. Entering chat would be at the bottom. So if no other window picked up the event, it will enter chat.

Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:38:00 - [124]
 

Way back when I was on the CSM I had discussions a few times about keyboard shortcuts and clearly recall talking about the lack of a launch drone shortcut. For *every* other weapon (guns, beams, missiles) you can initiate them via a keyboard shortcut. Drones you couldn't and I was told, I'm pretty sure I recall correctly, that it would be looked at.

So far it seems to be missing, which is a penalty to all drone boats as it means an additional delay for them when entering a battle.

Please do something about it!

IZ

(ps. rest nice!)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:46:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
The enter key may not be the best choice for EVE since enter is actually used a few places like entering an amount in a dialog and hitting enter to confirm it. Most MMOs (as far as I can tell) don't have that kind of interaction with the enter key, hence the reason for it activating the chat window.
As mentioned, that's not really how it works in EVE either: here, you use it to activate whatever button is in focus — it may be the "accept" button, but it may also not be. I can't remember the number of times I've been trying to buy stuff, enter the number of items and pressed <enter>…

…only to have the "advanced options" fall out, because for some reason the game had decided that the focus lay on that button rather than on the "accept" one. Or, for that matter, come up to a lowsec gate, got the warning, pressed <enter>, and then it has been a 50/50 chance of whether that jumps me through or leaves me in highsec. It all depends on which of the two buttons in the dialog EVE happens to think have focus when the window pops up. ugh

In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that EVE does have less (or at least a more unintuitive) connection between <enter> and "accept" than many games I've come across. I have yet to find one where putting some number or data into a form and pressing enter doesn't submit that form — EVE is the only one I can think of where doing that might throw you some other option window, rather than do what you want (viz. submit the data you've entered).

Granted, all of this depends on whether they will actually make <enter> a shortcut for "accept"/"submit", or if it will simply retain its current "do whatever…" functionality (and, likewise, if <esc> will actually be the "cancel" shortcut, rather than "perhaps cancel, perhaps open options, you never know…"). If it's the former, I can kind of buy the argument made earlier, that it will create situations where people accidentally submit unfinished data entries when they what they really wanted was to chat. If it's the latter, however, I can't quite see why focusing a chat window couldn't be one of the "whatever"s <enter> lets you do.

Either way, though, I want to be able to decide on my own setup. <Space> is definitely out, since I find it hideously unintuitive for a chat hotkey (and as others have mentioned: how do you lose chat focus afterwards? with <enter>, it would become quite natural).

Zima Dark
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:47:00 - [126]
 

The same hotkey to open the windows should also be used a toggle to close the same window (as a toggle.) So that you could press Alt-B to open the browser, and if you pressed it again, it would close it.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:50:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Zima Dark
The same hotkey to open the windows should also be used a toggle to close the same window (as a toggle.) So that you could press Alt-B to open the browser, and if you pressed it again, it would close it.
You're right, this is how it should work, as it's intuitive and entirely rational, but it doesn't.

You can already use it to open the cargo hold of the active ship, etc, but won't close it (:RAGE:)

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.10.14 21:54:00 - [128]
 

this is great news. hopefully, a beacon of more UI improvements coming our way.

Laice
Caldari
Archron Dusyfe Industries
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:00:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Laice on 14/10/2010 22:01:06
Originally by: xXxCCxXx
Originally by: Xaen
So, it only took you FOUR YEARS to listen to reason.



<3


yeh 4 years...


yeah that's it complain when then fix something.
Tip, if you want someone to do something, don't tell them they're **** at it.

In other news, GO CCP!

Zima Dark
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:06:00 - [130]
 

'T' (show info) seems to be broken, it does not work on items in a hangar, market window, ship hangar, etc.
'A' (align) does not work on bookmarks in the People and Places window.
'D' does not dock / jump / activate gate does not work even if the station / gate is the Selected Item.

These functions should work without having to click on the object if there something that's currently selected.

Needed still:
1. Warp to at 0km, 10km, 20m, 30km etc. shortcuts.
2. Reset Camera shortcut


Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:13:00 - [131]
 

So... let's start slow.
1. Alternative shortcuts for actions (WTF Shift+Insert FFS?)
2. Shortcut to open corp hangar.
3. (An UI deficiency rather than shortcuts issue) Additional ship cargoholds should be embedded into main cargohold interface, much like corp hangar holding tabs for every division. Then you don't need to abuse your capacitor and your eyes to open ore/fuel/maint bay.
4. Any plans to make chat actually usable? (I.e. flowing several chat channels in one window)

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:24:00 - [132]
 

This is what I call "excellence". Good job.

Possible additions
Add a more effective way of controlling speed. Right now we are limited to + and - keys to change speed by +- 10%, and check it in game, it does not work very well. At least, we need a shortcut for setting speed to max (as we have ctrl+space to stop our ship)


Science fiction in science fiction
The best thing of all should be having shorcuts for everything in the right click menu, like we have in every windows application. See this post for more info about what I mean.

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:29:00 - [133]
 

You all know you want to fly your rifter with a controller/joystick. With a few controls for pitch/yaw coupled with the speed/approach/orbit/ect bindings, this can become a reality.

Not being able to do this was the biggest let down when I started EVE many moons ago.

Luke S
Zeta Corp.
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:34:00 - [134]
 

is there a key stroke to toggle auto pilot? I don't have time to check since I'm in school.

Hordi LaGeorge
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:34:00 - [135]
 

The issue with enter to select chat:

You want to chat so you reach for the enter key.
When your finger is a fraction of an inch away, some dialog box pops up. Its too late to stop your finger, you hit enter. And thus you say "yes" to whatever that dialog box was asking. You do not even know what it was! It was not up long enough for you to see. But it was the top most window, so it took the enter.

Oops.

One way out of things like this is if you select enter as your chat focus shortcut, it stops working everywhere else, you got to use the mouse to click a button.

Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2010.10.14 22:43:00 - [136]
 

Thank you thank you thank you!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:09:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Hordi LaGeorge
The issue with enter to select chat:

You want to chat so you reach for the enter key.
When your finger is a fraction of an inch away, some dialog box pops up. Its too late to stop your finger, you hit enter. And thus you say "yes" to whatever that dialog box was asking. You do not even know what it was! It was not up long enough for you to see. But it was the top most window, so it took the enter.

Oops.

One way out of things like this is if you select enter as your chat focus shortcut, it stops working everywhere else, you got to use the mouse to click a button.
Good point.

The more I think about it, the whole <enter> issue boils down to the question: will it actually work as a categorical "accept", or will it work as a "press default button" (the way it is now)?

In the former case, I'd probably want to remap it to "y" (and have "n" for categorical cancel, rather than <esc>).

Also, one thing I've noticed from playing around on the test server is that there definitely needs to be a chat-unfocus action somewhere, not just as a shortcut, but (preferably, imo) as something that happens when you press enter in the chat window (regardless of whether you've typed anything or not). Already with what we have, I've accidentally written gibberish into chat trying to use the new shortcuts, due the chat being in focus when it shouldn't be.

Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:10:00 - [138]
 

Can we get a shortcut for tagging targets? Thanks.

Mirei Jun
Right to Rule
THE UNTHINKABLES
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:13:00 - [139]
 

This is a small, but serious improvement to the playability of Eve. Particularly the drone shortcuts are needed.

I understand having a command to launch drones would then add another layer of complication by needing to ask which drones to launch... However a launch shortcut would also be nice.

Thanks for finally making this change.

Pitty Hammerfist
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:14:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Pitty Hammerfist on 14/10/2010 23:16:19
Please for the love of god

MAKE CLICKING ON THE LEFT MENU TOGGLE THE WINDOWS BETWEEN OPEN AND CLOSED

not all windows toggle like they should

Estimated Prophet
Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe and Trading Company
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:27:00 - [141]
 

I have three chat windows open at all times, one contains only local, one contains multiple intel channels, tabbed, and the third contains corp, alliance and various other channels. So if I were to use Enter for chat, which of the three input areas should be focused?


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:30:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Estimated Prophet
I have three chat windows open at all times, one contains only local, one contains multiple intel channels, tabbed, and the third contains corp, alliance and various other channels. So if I were to use Enter for chat, which of the three input areas should be focused?
It still works the same way it always has: the last one you used…

…good luck figuring out beforehand which one that is if you've just logged in. Razz

Red Woodson
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:49:00 - [143]
 

Two requests:

Can we please have an ability to import/export option for the shortcuts?

Please fix it so when you open something like contracts via shortcut, it turns off the blink/highlight without having to actually click on the little icon on the neocom.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2010.10.14 23:50:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Tippia
As mentioned, that's not really how it works in EVE either: here, you use it to activate whatever button is in focus — it may be the "accept" button, but it may also not be.


True...it's also incidentally a standard way of handling keyboard input in a windows environment...Tab to move between fields/buttons/etc and enter substitutes for left-click.

Originally by: Tippia
I can't remember the number of times I've been trying to buy stuff, enter the number of items and pressed <enter>…

…only to have the "advanced options" fall out, because for some reason the game had decided that the focus lay on that button rather than on the "accept" one.


That's very odd - for me, the focus always defaults such that Enter triggers the "accept" option. I've never had Enter trigger an unexpected button unless I've been monkeying around with Tab all over the window, in which case it quite rightly triggers whatever I've Tabbed the focus to.

I have seen the inconsistent behavior of Esc though.

Originally by: Tippia
Either way, though, I want to be able to decide on my own setup. <Space> is definitely out, since I find it hideously unintuitive for a chat hotkey (and as others have mentioned: how do you lose chat focus afterwards? with <enter>, it would become quite natural).


I suppose if you really want to bind something else to Enter, and take the risk of accepting/cancelling/whatever-ing random stuff when you hit Enter to chat without remembering to clear down your other windows first, then I have no objection.

But it certainly shouldn't be the default setting, and should preferably come with a warning when you try and do it.

Originally by: Hordi LaGeorge
You want to chat so you reach for the enter key.
When your finger is a fraction of an inch away, some dialog box pops up. Its too late to stop your finger, you hit enter. And thus you say "yes" to whatever that dialog box was asking. You do not even know what it was! It was not up long enough for you to see. But it was the top most window, so it took the enter.


That can actually be a problem now, if the dialog box pops up and steals focus while you are typing in chat. Of course, in that scenario the poor design is the stealing of focus. The difference in using Enter to initiate the chat is that, by definition, nothing else has focus at the time, so the dialog would naturally get focus when it opens.

Ideally I'd want to find a nice harmless key that can be mapped as the "chat key" and doesn't do anything else ever. One press moves focus from whatever you are doing now to the chat window, a second press either sends the chat message if you have typed one, or if you haven't, returns focus to the last thing that had focus before you hopped to chat. That way a single tap would let you send a message and immediately type more, while a double-tap would send and unfocus chat. It also means that you can be half-way through something (e.g. market order), hop to chat to send a message, and hop right back and finish off what you were doing. Instead of accidentally submitting your unfinished order when you reach for the <enter> key to start chatting.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:00:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 15/10/2010 00:20:28

A! Forgot...
Ditch "Align To". "Approach" is enough in all cases.

Forgot again: When you are roflstomping through MY OWN shortcuts, reassigning everything to "new c00l way", please PAY ATTENTION ON WHAT THE F! YOU DOING.
I already have F11 (for example) assigned to different action. And that action for me is more important than useless "map browser" which I doubt anyone ever using.

P.S.
Clarify "Combat/Lock Target" and "Look At" to "Toggle Lock Target" and "Toggle Look At".

Hardreign
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:19:00 - [146]
 

Hey Fallout,

1. Build a hotkey so I may 'select' or 'make active' a group of drones/fighters.
2. Build supporting hotkeys for controlling said drones.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:21:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Hardreign
Hey Fallout,

1. Build a hotkey so I may 'select' or 'make active' a group of drones/fighters.

Put your drones in a group... problem solved.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:31:00 - [148]
 

Gonna say it again. Ctrl - right click for unlock target.

Matriarch Em'ashu
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:42:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CCP Optimal
I'm very glad to hear that people in general seem to be excited about the changes. Keep the feedback coming, especially when it comes to actions that are currently not possible to bind shortcuts to.


Cross-posting from the Test Server Forums:

Originally by: Matriarch Em'ashu
Originally by: BeanBagKing
CTRL+Click now unlocks if you click on the portrait of a locked target. Me and my salvager alt love you CCP!


This, but with one significant exception: Lock and Unlock are combined into a single TOGGLING event. If you spam Ctrl + Mouse 1, you will most likely find yourself unlocking something you just finished targeting! These two functions need to be split into their own shortcuts, with Locking staying as Ctrl + Mouse 1 and Unlocking possibly becoming Ctrl + Alt + Mouse 1, or maybe even Ctrl + Mouse 2. The ability to unlock things quickly is awesome, essential, and a long time coming, but this tiny oversight will make all the difference in reception and common combat situations.

As a side note, reasons to spam Ctrl + Mouse 1 currently:

  • Ctrl locks the overview and sorts new entities to the bottom, so you can spam the next empty slot in the list to pick someone landing or decloaking while disregarding personal reaction times.

  • Double click approaches the target, which still works while holding Ctrl.

  • Ctrl + Mouse 1 targets things, which is always good to start early.




Additionally, I've been thinking about Logistics Pilots and cases where not every fleet member is targetable at once. Currently, it is possible to simply Ctrl + Mouse 1 through the watch list and target everyone that can be, followed by another pass to pick up the previously untargetables. With the new Toggle Target method, this brute forcing would result in unlocking the people you already targeted, requiring a much more intensive check session while everyone is dying around you. A similar argument can be made for more direct combat situations, such as locking as many ships as possible in an attempt to get points on something while an enemy fleet is running away.

Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:46:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: CCP Optimal
I'm very glad to hear that people in general seem to be excited about the changes. Keep the feedback coming, especially when it comes to actions that are currently not possible to bind shortcuts to.


Keyboard shortcuts for speed settings, please. For example:

25% Speed
50% Speed
75% Speed
Max Speed

As previously mentioned, a key for unlocking all current targets would be nice. As would switching to the next locked target.


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