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Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:13:00 - [1]
 

As most of you know the Nightmare is an amazing ship for either pvp or missions. I love the Nightmare for Missions and it does wonders in any enviroment. I have done lvl 4 missions in amarr caldari and gallente space with it and it does wonders in any of them.

Currently I fly in caldari space and have no issue with guristas. I am cap stable with almost 1000 dps. I just recently got tech 2 tach's for missions and hope to blitz them even quicker than before. I have no issue popping ninjas that warp in, as a matter of fact I can normally insta pop a ninja frig in one salvo. The tracking is amazing and the volleys are even better. I am just wondering why more people are not useing them. My Nightmare is really only about 1.1 bill isk total for ship and fit. There is minimal faction on it and very little reason to get ganked.

As long as you dont get stupid and just fire and a ninja and sit in the mission then you should have no issue with them. Really there is no reason not to fly a Nightmare if you have done missions for any amount of time. So I guess my question is, why dont YOU mission with a Nightmare instead of a paladin or a golem?

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:19:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
I am cap stable with almost 1000 dps


Stopped reading there.

Star P'ergish
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:35:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: TheMahdi
Originally by: Jorgan Morph
I am cap stable with almost 1000 dps


Stopped reading there.


This.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Jorgan Morph on 10/10/2010 23:48:35
What's wrong with being cap stable with a 500 dps omni tank with 1000 effective dps and being able to not worry about cap at all? Your point is invalid.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:53:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
What's wrong with being cap stable with a 500 dps omni tank with 1000 effective dps and being able to not worry about cap at all?
If you can project 1k DPS, you're wasting slots on that cap stability you don't have to worry about it even if you're "unstable".

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:57:00 - [6]
 

I only have 3 ccc rigs and 3 cap rechargers. The lows are all damage and the highs are 4 tech 2 tach's. The damage is great the tank is respectable and really Im not waisting much. The reason I am so cap stable is my max cap skills.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.10 23:58:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
Edited by: Jorgan Morph on 10/10/2010 23:48:35
What's wrong with being cap stable with a 500 dps omni tank with 1000 effective dps and being able to not worry about cap at all? Your point is invalid.


There is no fit that can get those numbers without a cap booster, and then it's BY NO MEANS cap stable. I fly a Nightmare almost exclusively in Amarr space and yes I do have just over 1000 DPS but thats with faction fittings, near perfect skills (note: T2, Large Spec IV) and implants and is by NO MEANS cap stable even with cap boosters. Actually only has about 2 min 30 sec cap but it's always been more then enough for any mission. So your full of **** since you said you don't have faction fittings.

As to actually answering your derp derp OP, Golem and Paladin are superior for a number of reasons.

Paladin can get just as much DPS as Nightmare with a cap booster fitting and having the same level of Marauders as the Nightmare would with Caldari BS. The only advantage the Nightmare has is tracking, which helps for less BS-heavy missions. (protip: Check the bonuses, they are the same. And yes it's possible to fit both with 4x Heat Sinks.) And I do use a Paladin on missions that are worth salvaging instead of the Nightmare. i.e. WC, Blockade.

Golem hits for all damage type and does just as much DPS and more, how is that worse? Another protip: Lazers only do EM and Thermal, DPS is lost vs any other faction other than Blood Raider, Sansha, Rogue Drone, etc. - in all other cases, Golem is far far superior.

And finally, both of them can salvage and loot while completing the mission greatly increasing the ISK/hr.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 00:02:00 - [8]
 

Hey derp derp, I said I have minimal faction not none. And I believe where you are getting the not possible cap stability is I am running a large booster not a X-large. So it is much easier to get cap stable. Oh and if you are useing cap boosters to stay "cap stalbe" then you are not truely cap stable.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.11 00:06:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
Hey derp derp, I said I have minimal faction not none. And I believe where you are getting the not possible cap stability is I am running a large booster not a X-large. So it is much easier to get cap stable. Oh and if you are useing cap boosters to stay "cap stalbe" then you are not truely cap stable.


I said I wasn't cap stable, thats the whole point.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 00:12:00 - [10]
 

The way you were posting was making it sound as if it was impossible. Right now I have several implants that help with cap and several for large guns. Also the max gunnery skills and the max shield skills. So really I dont understand why people think that a nightmare without a cap booster is a fail.

Gauss Gun
Posted - 2010.10.11 00:49:00 - [11]
 

why dont you post your fit ?

Dario Wall
Posted - 2010.10.11 00:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Gauss Gun
why dont you post your fit ?

Agreed.

I just checked in EFT, and the only way to get a large shield booster fit to have near 500 DPS omnitank with close to 1k turret DPS was having all level 5 skills, Crystal implants, and nearly every possible hardwiring you could fit for cap stability and turret damage/cap use.

Sorry to say, but this magical Nightmare fit is looking more like a fairy tale.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:18:00 - [13]
 

Im on my laptop right now and dont have eft fitted so I will just tell you what I have.

4x tech 2 tachs
2x tractor beams
1x dread guristas large sheild booster
1x caldari navy shield boost amp
2x mission specific hardners
3x tech 2 cap rechargers
3x tech 2 heat sinks
2x tech 2 tracking en.
3x CCC rigs
5x tech 2 hammerheads
5x tech 2 hobgoblins
And I cant honestly give you my implants right now. So I wont include those. Mostly due to the fact I have forgoten the names of the ones I have.

Dario Wall
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
Im on my laptop right now and dont have eft fitted so I will just tell you what I have.

4x tech 2 tachs
2x tractor beams
1x dread guristas large sheild booster
1x caldari navy shield boost amp
2x mission specific hardners
3x tech 2 cap rechargers
3x tech 2 heat sinks
2x tech 2 tracking en.
3x CCC rigs
5x tech 2 hammerheads
5x tech 2 hobgoblins
And I cant honestly give you my implants right now. So I wont include those. Mostly due to the fact I have forgoten the names of the ones I have.

Mission specific hardeners are not an omni tank.

Even then, your implant costs would make smartbombing your pod in a suicide gank almost worth it just for the grief it would cause. You need all of the 5% hardwiring implants, and everyone knows those are not cheap. Also looks like you need Crystals still, to get close to your claimed tanking ability.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:39:00 - [15]
 

I can throw invuls on there and get that tank but I dont like to. I was showing you what is currently fitted not what I originally posted with. And I never fly in just my pod also im not a noob who sits in a pod if I were to get killed... Also its called jump clones when you are not just missioning lol.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:41:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: TheMahdi on 11/10/2010 01:42:42
Not to mention thats 3 HS instead of 4 (and not faction, so still your DPS claims are exegerated.. unless your counting drone DPS as 100% effective and any NM pilot would know half the time they dont even get a chance to close the distance). With an X-L and cap booster you can fit a TC and get the same result as having a second TE.

And still, not even close to the same tank or stability.

Move along, nothing to see here..

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:49:00 - [17]
 

The faction heat sinks only add like 0.02% damage more than the tech 2 so not really worth it, The point of the fit is that I dont need the cap boosters and I think a large booster is more than fine on a nightmare. However we have really gone off track on what this is about. Its not about fits more on why dont you see as many nightmares doing missions. I honestly believe that the nightmare is the best mission ship out there. Its a laser platform, its shield tanked naturally, it has good cap if fitted right and its a really mean looking ship none the less.

So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:51:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.


Already answered that..

TL;DR for the derp:

Paladin can get same DPS as Nightmare and salvage and loot.

Golem does all damage types and has just as much DPS while salvaging and looting.

U mad bro?

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:55:00 - [19]
 

Lol no I'm not mad. But the golem has to get a lot closer to the target than a nightmare because my nightmare can hit to around 150km and lock base to 100km. The paladin is able to salvage and loot yes, but if your blitzing missions then why do you even need to loot and salvage? There is no point to it. I use to salvage and loot before they nerfed loot but not now.

Dario Wall
Posted - 2010.10.11 01:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: TheMahdi
Originally by: Jorgan Morph
So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.


Already answered that..

TL;DR for the derp:

Paladin can get same DPS as Nightmare and salvage and loot.

Golem does all damage types and has just as much DPS while salvaging and looting.

U mad bro?

Paladin needs higher skills to get the same DPS, and the Golem loses a lot of that DPS against smaller targets. The Nightmare can usually volley most frigates and cruisers while they are flying to get in range, and can handle all the BC and BS from point blank all the way to locking range.

But I still agree, his so-called miracle fit is a bit unpractical and requires more ISK in implants than his ship and fitting cost combined. All it would take is a coordinated suicide gank and a disco cruiser for his pod, and he'd be out a lot of ISK.

Jorgan Morph
Posted - 2010.10.11 02:01:00 - [21]
 

My fit is not the point! lol dude get off of that. Now you actually made a oint there in that the nightmare is much better on smaller ships and it takes fewer skills than the paladin. Now I find that most missions have more frigs and cruisers than battleships (on average) so its faster to kill them first rather than bs's.

Lady Aja
Posted - 2010.10.11 02:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Jorgan Morph
The faction heat sinks only add like 0.02% damage more than the tech 2 so not really worth it, So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.


this is where i am convinced you know nothing of the nightmare.

faction MF beats t2 ammo hands down. Also you "nightmare" of a claim has so many holes it would sink an iceberg.
For the record. t2 ammo does more than imp iNavy mf's but only just. and the draw backs suck **** enough to make not using gleam a must..

also 4 iNavy MF should last a good pilot 75+ missions.

Dario Wall
Posted - 2010.10.11 02:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lady Aja
Originally by: Jorgan Morph
The faction heat sinks only add like 0.02% damage more than the tech 2 so not really worth it, So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.


this is where i am convinced you know nothing of the nightmare.

faction MF beats t2 ammo hands down. Also you "nightmare" of a claim has so many holes it would sink an iceberg.
For the record. t2 ammo does more than imp iNavy mf's but only just. and the draw backs suck **** enough to make not using gleam a must..

also 4 iNavy MF should last a good pilot 75+ missions.

Aja, he was talking about the heat sinks, not the ammo.Wink

I do agree with you though, faction MF is superior to the T2 beam ammo in nearly every way. The only thing it has less of is DPS, and even then you barely lose any at all.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.11 02:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dario Wall

Paladin needs higher skills to get the same DPS, and the Golem loses a lot of that DPS against smaller targets. The Nightmare can usually volley most frigates and cruisers while they are flying to get in range, and can handle all the BC and BS from point blank all the way to locking range.


Yes, I do agree Marauders is a higher SP investment but might as well get it if your flying a Marauder, or it's a PvE alt.

Also the Paladin can get almost as much tracking with TCs with a cap booster fit. And same for the Golem with a 3 TP fit. Having flown all 3 I do agree the Nightmare is far less skill intensive as you really need good skills for both the Golem and Paladin. But the Golem can 1 shot anything other than frigates and 3 shot most BS with nearly perfect skills.

But as I mentioned, for longer range missions I do prefer the NM.

Lady Aja
Posted - 2010.10.11 02:33:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Dario Wall
Originally by: Lady Aja
Originally by: Jorgan Morph
The faction heat sinks only add like 0.02% damage more than the tech 2 so not really worth it, So really why is a golem any better? And dont even mention a paladin. IMO they are fails. I really hate the paladin.


this is where i am convinced you know nothing of the nightmare.

faction MF beats t2 ammo hands down. Also you "nightmare" of a claim has so many holes it would sink an iceberg.
For the record. t2 ammo does more than imp iNavy mf's but only just. and the draw backs suck **** enough to make not using gleam a must..

also 4 iNavy MF should last a good pilot 75+ missions.

Aja, he was talking about the heat sinks, not the ammo.Wink

I do agree with you though, faction MF is superior to the T2 beam ammo in nearly every way. The only thing it has less of is DPS, and even then you barely lose any at all.


imo no nm should be without faction hs's

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.10.11 03:06:00 - [26]
 

eh, 1077 gun dps (with 5% implants, cuz they are ****ing awesome) 42% cap stable, fuzzy math in my head says its around 1.2-1.3b. falls a bit short on the 500dps tanked, but eh you really don't need that much tank. fitting a spec tank gets it a bit closer.

the reason I don't only fly the nightmare is I prefer the mach for angels, probably going to go out and buy a varg tmr/tonight, because they give tasty loot/salvage.

vs guristas I usually just afk ishtar and the only serp mission I get is cargo delivery (oh, and wc, but hey damn near the same as guristas). although I have a suspicion that the CNR would be a bit better than the nightmare

vs blood/mercs/sansha/drones hell yea nightmare, maybe paladin if you feel like looting.

oh and a marauder is a must have for enemies abound! mmmm tags

[Nightmare, Cap stable]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
Auto Targeting System II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x5
Curator II x2

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.10.11 03:18:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: TheMahdi on 11/10/2010 03:19:50
Just for the sake of trolling less and being more useful, here's my Nightmare:


[Nightmare, Lazors go zap]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


Fit utility high slots to taste.

Advantages over the cap stable one:
- Afterburner (huge advantage)
- More effective tank for when you actually need it.
- More range or tracking then 1 TE fit.
- Can easily fit a 2nd TC depending on mission.
- Cheaper, less gank bait.

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.10.11 05:16:00 - [28]
 

[Nightmare, Nightmare PvE]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster

Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

5x Hobgoblin II
5x Hammerhead II

This ship works just fine. I very rarely have to even use the shield/cap booster, infact I haven't touched them for the last 10 or so missions.. The only reason I still have the boosters still on there is that I know the first mission where I don't have them, I'll need them. I'm working on the T2 Tachs now, will have them in about 3 weeks. Max cap skills, max shield skills (except the compensations at IV) and max gunnery support skills.

You don't need the fancy-schmancy faction mods to make this an awesome ship. Although I do have a CNR for those missions where the Nightmare takes a hurting on its DPS.

JackStraw56
Bayesian Motion
Knights of Tomorrow
Posted - 2010.10.11 06:18:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: JackStraw56 on 11/10/2010 06:31:25
Edited by: JackStraw56 on 11/10/2010 06:20:34
Originally by: Jorgan Morph
The faction heat sinks only add like 0.02% damage more than the tech 2 so not really worth it
You are off by multiple orders of magnitude. Faction damage mods have an increase in damage (same rate of fire) of 12.5% compared to 10% for T2. That is 25% more of an increase for faction over T2.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.10.11 08:03:00 - [30]
 

Nightmare is indeed quite awesome ship although you are probably downlapying a bit that investment as 1.1 bil is not quite enough to be that effective as you make it sound - as has been already pointed out for example as far as hardwires go. PS. Nightmare dps should be measured without drones as when your drones have enough time to get in range you are not properly effective with it. Drones are used for taking out the few critters that can get under your range.

As far as flying Nightmare against Guristas .. mmm .. yeh - it can be done, but other ships do it better. I myself still use Golem against Guristas (and other opponents where Nightmare is not the most effective tool). I would like also to add that for Nightmare to really shine you will need pretty damn good skills. I myself moved onto Nightmare from max (relevant) skilled Golem with Amarr side of skills at L4 and was somewhat disappointed at first and found the true effectiveness of Nightmare when I had maxed out my Amarr side of skills as well.


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