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blankseplocked Incursion site testing feedback [Updated 12-17]
 
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Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2010.12.22 09:06:00 - [121]
 

I've flown both Guardians and Basiliks in these sites now and feel as if it does not matter which type of tank you use. Armor tanking might be a bit easier due to the higher EM resists on armor, but overall it felt rather similar.

FYI, on both ship types I use a combo of 4x tank and 2x energy xfer to build up a cap chain with other logistics. An AB2 to lessen the incoming damage and as much tank as I can squeeze in makes up the rest of the fit.

The lowest level incursion was easy to beat, but when we moved on to the next stage (probably too early since we got bored running the same mission over and over again) we got hit by a deadly combination of neuts, scrams, webs and ECM. We had four Basilisks on the field (later five) and lost three of them in a minute since the NPCs ECMed one, neuted the other and then primaried the logistics one after the other.
I don't know the fits of the others but I had as much tank as I could with (I think) maxed skills. I started aligning as soon as the first Basi popped yet was unable to warp out in time. We had good coordination and I had at least one Basilisk supporting me but the NPCs broke through that regardless.

I am not sure if we made a mistake or were simply unlucky (I think the biggest mistake was to move to a "silver" system too early) but the risk/reward ratio is still way off IMO.

Another problem I have is that there are three missions that I've seen so far: the one where you have to hack a constantly jumping object, the one where you have to collect civilians ("Overwhelmed Civilian Facility) and one that requires some mining which is quite annyoing since mining ships & Sansha incursions do not mix well. Overall it was fun and interesting the first two or three times, but now it's boring (one reason why we moved to the "silver" system).
At first I thought I'd go and look for a specialized corp dealing with incursions, but running the same mission over and over again doesn't appeal much to me.

So... please add moar mission types.

Raysuli
Posted - 2010.12.23 15:02:00 - [122]
 

(Distress Beacon) (1) (Easy)

Rating 5

~10 mins

The 50k ISK feels about right, good for peeps who usually fly Lvl 2 Missions

It's soloable in a assault frig, but really annoying because of the jammers.
It doesn't force you to cooperate, but it would be a lot smoother with 2 or 3.

But too easy for the 3-5 recommended people. (Hot knife and butter comes to mind).

I soloed in a wolf, so yeah i was coordinated.

The Jel Rhomben are too stupid, they orbited at around 12k, where they coulnd't really hit me anymore, but i had to overheat my web to get them. (or get a fed navy web...). But that's a solo issue again.

One Wolf. PvE Fit. 200mm Guns, AB, Web.

Very easy site, but a bit boring. For a solo pilot the jams are annoying as hell, which is a good thing, imo. If there was any other objective besides killing the rats, that would be nice. Protect the Orca for example...

AllY M
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.23 18:45:00 - [123]
 

Subject: ("Override Transfer Array") ("9 Players") ("Moderate")

Your overall rating for this site ?: 7

How long did it take?: 45~ Minutes

What reward do you think would be fair for this level of difficulty?: Double the current ISK reward (30 Million ISK from 15 Million ISK per person) simply because of the now age-old argument that you could make more running level 4's in the relative safety of high security space than running incursions in lawless space. The risk vs reward rears it's ugly head again. A balance between a reward that is more profitable than the equivalent safe security activity but no so profitable as to make all similar activities obsolete.

What did you find good about this site?: A good combination of sleeper AI (destroy enemy drones and switch targets often) and electronic warfare.

What did you find bad about this site?: That the logistics tower moved 150~ KM away periodically. It doesn't make the complex harder it just makes it take longer.

Do you feel your group was coordinated?: Yes, myself and a friend were on voice communications doing it together.

How do you feel about the NPC behavior?: It's a fantastic improvement from say sanctums but little improvement on the sleeper AI. Will see if the AI is any different once we get around to the assaults.

What ships did you have in your fleet?: 4 Machariels, 3 Guardians, 2 Rapiers (with 1 Gang-Boosting Loki and 1 Gang-Boosting Legion)

Were you using PvE or PvP fit ships to attempt/complete this site?: The fits were specifically made with incursions in mind and utilised no warp disruption modules. Stasis webifiers and target painters were of course used on the rapiers (so PVE fit ships).

General Feedback (keep it short and sweet): This site in particular was good fun the first time around, albeit a little easy for our fleet composition (no ship went below 80% armour). I doubt it would end up being fun after more than half a dozen completions. More variation in this site would be fantastic, say for example randomly throwing a extra triple battleship spawn at the logistics array when they are being hacked (make it random though so those who are running don't know if it'll happen the first time they hack it or the last time).

Would love to see rewards boosted for Vanguards since they seem like the middle ground (i.e. the kind of content *most* people will be able to get to grips with) and more vanguard types added, i.e. five like the HQ sites have. Although there is still some time left to go until the TQ release so there may be more sites yet to be introduced.

AllY M
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.23 18:57:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: AllY M on 23/12/2010 19:10:24
Subject: ("Nation Commander Outpost") ("9 Players") ("Moderate")

Your overall rating for this site ( 1 - crap, 10 - totally awesome)?: 8

How long did it take?: 1 Hour 20 Minutes ish

What reward do you think would be fair for this level of difficulty?: Again, double the current ISK reward would be a much preferable reward. The LP reward is good in my opinion. Not the huge amount you can receive from Faction Warfare missions but still good.

What did you find good about this site?: The damage output was a lot more challenging than the other two vanguard sites. I had to focus a lot more of my attention on the logistics this time.

What did you find bad about this site?: It took my quite a long time the first time to complete it but with subsequent tries or if a team with more players working together in unison were to attempt it then it would likely take a lot less time and be worth the reward offered.

Do you feel your group was coordinated?: As well co-ordinated as a single man group can be Smile

How do you feel about the NPC behavior?: Same as before - challenging in the same way sleepers are.

What ships did you have in your fleet?: 5 Machariels, 3 Guardians, 1 Rapier (with 1 Gang-Boosting Loki and 1 Gang-Boosting Legion)

Were you using PvE or PvP fit ships to attempt/complete this site?: Again, PVE ships were used with incursion centred fittings.

General Feedback (keep it short and sweet): Can't wait for assaults Razz

E: from earlier in the thread people were talking about incursion NPCs invulnerability to e-war. The incursion NPCs we faced seemed to react to neutralisers in that they stopped MWD'ing. Didn't try jamming them though.

Devedse
Posted - 2010.12.27 09:06:00 - [125]
 

I have a few points to make, I did the incursion where we needed to hack a structure. (with about 20 people)

1. I didn't get attacked once in my ishtar.

2. It took more then an hour to complete but that was mostly because no one knew you had to hack the structure and their whole fleet was invulnerable, (so I suggest we get some signs like "hack the structure").

3. Energy neutralizers don't help at all, I later switched to a megathron with 8 energy neutralizers and the rats still kept activating their MWD's (a cruiser) and their shield boosters.

4. I didn't get a payout but I'd say that in high sec the payouts should be at least 50 mil an hour for the moderate ones.

I think it's going to be very hard to form a group for this. As most people know in 0.0 it takes ages to form up a fleet sometimes. For these incursions with inexperienced pve guys it will take even longer. I just don't think much people will PUG in this because there's a huge risk of loosing your ship because of the inexperience of the other players.

Example:

Logi dies -> everyone else is scrammed -> 10 man fleet whipes -> 1 billion in losses.

d3vo
Posted - 2010.12.27 23:08:00 - [126]
 

So...

I noticed frigs can jam at 150km away upon spawning? Neutral
Also, in the journal there is a tab named "Global Report". Shouldn't it be "Universal Report" or something?

Fird
Posted - 2010.12.28 05:04:00 - [127]
 

You can keep your incursions. It's a waste of time imo.

bartard frisky
Posted - 2010.12.31 08:28:00 - [128]
 

Far far far too tough as it stands.
Weaken them a teeny tiny bit, or make it more realistic (IE:Not infinite cap)
Put an incursion fleet search thing in the fleet finder, and Local NPC back up (If it's in hi-sec, a good deal. Only a little in lo-sec, none in null maybe a little for sov, but thats over complicated)
And i'll actively participate without fear of losing everything I own.

Arthainas
Amarr
Black Hand Templars
The Veyr Collective
Posted - 2010.12.31 12:53:00 - [129]
 

What I think is funny is the people who are complaining about incursion not being soloble. Ummmmm Duh? CCP said this was PVE content for fleets your not suppose to be able to solo it, so the diffculty they have to have has to be high to encourge people to work together to get though the sites.

Learaths
Posted - 2010.12.31 16:58:00 - [130]
 

Can I convince CCP to drop an Incursion on Jita? Epic.

Mr morris
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.01 03:28:00 - [131]
 

National Commander Outpost- completed with 2 (undisclosed) ships. Site rating 7.5. Time to kill all spawns- appox. 90 minutes. Significant npc behavior improvement, would still like to see them get smarter. Used one logi & one dmg, both with big active pve'ish tanks. Took a few days and many lost ships to get the right ships fit the right way. Like the new & improved sansha and hope they continue to get smarter. Vanguard sites are nice & good to learn with. Assault site completed with 4x guards & 8x expensive mostly faction dmg ships, crossfit pvp/pve. Site rating- 9 Everyone loved the experience. Logi pilots were strained to the max, just right imho & dmg dealers were always feeling like they could die at any second ( a few did). Best ever pve environment, can't wait to try the big boss with a proper fleet.

chaosjj
Posted - 2011.01.01 20:25:00 - [132]
 

will 2 million sp's be rewarded to all participants?

xavier69
Gallente
Stark Enterprises LLC
Posted - 2011.01.02 08:31:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: xavier69 on 02/01/2011 08:33:43
Quote:
The reward thief
What does a reward thief do ? He gets a reward without having contributed anything to the fight. He will usually use a ship with a cloaking device, preferably a covops, so that you don't even see him warping in. He will sit cloaked on the grid and wait till a team cleans a site and completes it's task there. When the last ship is about to die, the reward thief will uncloak (in case the reward are not give to cloaked ships) and get a part of the reward, just for being there. What are you going to do against reward thieves CCP ?



I guess they could give raid leaders only looting rights to avoid ninja looters and reward thieves i mean eve is not a pvp oriented game... we all like fluffy carebears and reach arounds from the devs and forbid anyone comming in and taking away our hard earned FUN

maybe we can get mods next that come with us when we get podded ... ? i mean come on right one cally launcher is 300m We should be able to take that with Us right ?


ROFL HAHAHA I LAF AT U CCP

SEE what you have started CCP you have turned a hard core pvp game into spaceship WOW

Steo
Posted - 2011.01.02 14:11:00 - [134]
 

Is there a guide up on what to do to get ready for this? I have the test client installed. Where do I go in the Eve universe to take part? Is there a channel I need to join for the testQuestion

Nicholi Onformaris
Caldari
A.R.K.
Posted - 2011.01.02 23:08:00 - [135]
 

I'm not normally one to troll forums but this crap about how only the people involved with the kill are allowed to open the wreck is utter bull****. This game isn't WoW, customers are not suppose to be 7-9yr olds running around crying that someone stole their goods. This is EVE, its a cold hard universe, not the "happy gumdrop forest" that is WoW. I am a carebear with teeth and even I'm angry at this! Carebears need to cry, its how we loose weight!

Let the trolling continue.

Akira Katsurou
Posted - 2011.01.03 03:36:00 - [136]
 

What system is the test incursion going to be in?

Jottunn
Posted - 2011.01.04 14:49:00 - [137]
 

Not being able to cloak+lowsec/nullsec pvp consequences applied to incursion sites would be an idea to please some people.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.01.04 20:34:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Mr morris
National Commander Outpost- completed with 2 (undisclosed) ships. Site rating 7.5. Time to kill all spawns- appox. 90 minutes. Significant npc behavior improvement, would still like to see them get smarter. Used one logi & one dmg, both with big active pve'ish tanks. Took a few days and many lost ships to get the right ships fit the right way. Like the new & improved sansha and hope they continue to get smarter. Vanguard sites are nice & good to learn with. Assault site completed with 4x guards & 8x expensive mostly faction dmg ships, crossfit pvp/pve. Site rating- 9 Everyone loved the experience. Logi pilots were strained to the max, just right imho & dmg dealers were always feeling like they could die at any second ( a few did). Best ever pve environment, can't wait to try the big boss with a proper fleet.
Mirroring this sentiment. The vanguard sites are very challenging for a fleet and takes some good player skills to complete with the logi pilots being the key to the whole shebang. Then we tried an assault site with the same group and got hammered. Razz

The only real hangup I can see coming in high sec incursions as the sites are just as hard is that there is going to be massive greifing using the rr gcc aggro mechanic to destroy logis left and right in public fleets with concord. This will pretty much leave any high sec sites to be run only by corps that can't get concord aggro for shooting fleet members. Dunno if this is a good thing or not tbh but I suppose to be fair it will encourge joining a corp over just staying in the noob corp or making a one man corp.

Originally by: Nicholi Onformaris
I'm not normally one to troll forums but this crap about how only the people involved with the kill are allowed to open the wreck is utter bull****. This game isn't WoW, customers are not suppose to be 7-9yr olds running around crying that someone stole their goods. This is EVE, its a cold hard universe, not the "happy gumdrop forest" that is WoW. I am a carebear with teeth and even I'm angry at this! Carebears need to cry, its how we loose weight!

Let the trolling continue.
There is no loot and the wrecks do not have any salvage. There is only the site completion rewards of isk and concord lp which is not even available to use until the entire incursion is completely defeated. So the only way to get the rewards is to be part of a group(don't have to be fleeted) that ran the majority of the site so you can't just uncloak to quickly shoot a rat or come in at the end with a larger gang and run off or destroy the competing gang then expect a portion of the rewards.

Santaa Klauss
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:15:00 - [139]
 

after reading through this thread I have found a few points that stand out to me.

-Risk/Isk factor is jacked up, rewards need to be greator
-Sansha are immune to neuts
-Accessability limited to few parties
-Needs more randomization, its too repeatative
-Needs to feel like pvp

First thing that needs to be done is for the Sansha ships to act like player controled ships. This means for all the sansha ships are vulnerable to all forms of EWAR. Another factor that is, in my opinion, the greatest flaw so far is the risk/reward factor. With the incursions, if the reward is too little, it will feel like a chore to clean up a mess. No excitement or pioneering feeling that your hardwork will be repayed with treasure. I propose a system that will properly balance the risk/reward factor.

1. Greatly increase the Reward by a substatial amount. One that will make all players of eve droll over.
2. Greatly increase the difficulties of AI
3. Deploy penalties and scalings for the performance of the fleet.
This includes
-Rewards based on time completed, as well as the current factor of the number of people participating
-Penalties for not completing, perhaps certain checkpionts (randomization factor)
-Penalties in rewards for fleet members exploding.
I feel that these changes will greaten the depth that Incursions will bring out. And reward skillful performences. While pushing people for great rewards.

Xylorn Hasher
Posted - 2011.01.07 14:36:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Scorson
Nice thoughts!
I think that you shouldn't think about loot/salvage as reward because it will be very hard to extract, also I use to win about 20M isk per hour in lvl4 missions(*) so 25M for such a risk and so many time isn't appealing...
(*)Tengu+/Maelstrom-


I think you ( and many others too ) forgot that Incrusions aren't designed as new option to make ISK.

Incrusions are designed to be a threat to players by locking down entire solar systems and be more like frontlines. They are more like "mandatory" to do than just a new option for quick ISK in my opinion.

Perhaps we will all suffer when ( i hope ) trade hubs or our assets will be locked inside Incrusion system.
For example Jita, Perimetter, New Caldari invaded in the same time will actually FORCE players to do something about that than complaining about ISK/hour amount.



Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2011.01.07 15:26:00 - [141]
 

Comments on the last mass-test, roughly 80 players against a Sansha mothership boss.

Although the incursion strength was very low (5% at most) the incoming damage was incredible. Again I took a logistics slot and had a Guardian with as much tank as I could cram in while still serving its original purpose. We paid special attention to the logistics (we had about 8 of them, mainly Guardians) yet despite all our effort lost a lot - myself I lost three. One was due to bad coordination, but the other two died almost instantly to something (I didn't check the killmails and SiSi is down atm). Especially the last loss was rather disconcerting as I was already receiving repairs and STILL died in one blow. One second I was at full armor, next I was in a pod. Lag might have been involved but lag wasn't much of an issue earlier. Another Guardian died while I had three (somewhat staggered) reppers on him.

On TQ this would have been a catastrophe - Logistics do not grow on trees. The roughly 20M reward that was talked about does not halfway cover the losses this fight would have caused.

I can live with ship deaths due to Logistics being neuted or jammed - this basically means that you should've brought more Logistics. But if a Logistic ship is being insta-killed even while receiving repairs I don't know a way to counter that.
I've seen POS fights where the gunners tried their best to insta-kill attackers and failed due to superior Logistics, but aparently those Sansha easily surpass the damagr output a crewed death star can produce.

And this raises the question: why should anyone risk their Logistic ship for an uncertain reward if the alternative (for instance high sec L4s) is much easier and safer?

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2011.01.07 15:38:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Xylorn Hasher
I think you ( and many others too ) forgot that Incrusions aren't designed as new option to make ISK.


But EVE being as it is the ISK/hour is THE major measuring tool that will be applied onto the Incursions after the "Ohh, new and shiny!" effect wears off. If that holy number is lower than safer ISK faucets no one will use this feature, and all dev time will be wasted. Just look at faction warfare. It's a really nifty feature that could create a lot of opportunities, but since there is little money coming out of it only a miniscule part of the EVE population is actually using it - last I checked it were roughly 800 active pilots with around 40k pilots online. That's a mere 2% acceptance!

EVE being as it is I guess most people will simply move to another system if an Incursion hits their money making constellation. It might work better if the disadvantages would affect traders as well, but right now only ratters and mission runners are affected (lower bounties, lower resists, lower damage).

I was hoping for rising broker & manufacturing fees and/or taxes, as this would encourage traders to pay combat corps to clear the system they have all their stock in. This would have created some more interaction and increased the rewards for those who actually risk their ships, but CCP decided to just punish the ratters. Well, maybe it's a stealthy way to reduce the ISK influx into the economy.

Chakula
Posted - 2011.01.08 07:23:00 - [143]
 

Well i didnt test it out.

but what i can discern from all this, is that incursions are:

-unfair

-they suck up your expensive ammo

-not meant for players under 5 to 10 mill SP.

-yea EXTREMELY unfair.


MY reaction:
not a good approach to inviting more players into the eve universe.
haters are gona hate, especially corps at war dishing it out when all of sudden: ALLLAAAARRRRMMMMMM RESISTANCES ON SHIPS DROP BY 50%. UH OHHHHH
and yea, wtf am i reading? people getting ****d by 10 frigs? 10 players taking 2-5 minutes destroying a BS with upgraded sleeper tech?

this sounds awesome in some ways, but seems like it will end up being a huge ISK vacuum and will lose popularity in 3-4 months.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.08 07:28:00 - [144]
 

How much isk will CCP give to players for testing this stuff?

bgummer
Gallente
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.08 14:55:00 - [145]
 

Spent some time playing with incursions last night, had a small gang of 3 drakes 1 basilisk and eos with a shield tank (in the end we where really surprised how well the eos did) we set the drakes up with a large shield transporter and best active tank we could with named tech 1 hardware. had to use a few hardwires to get everything fit and stable.

we had the eos setup with the siege warfare mods ( siege spec at 3 on test) 2 large shield transporters and a large energy transporter.

with this setup we had no issue tanking all the damage, damage output was a touch on the low side as one drake pilot (me) is gallante spec and im flying a drake with bare min missile and shield skills.

we did 6 nation commander outposts, only losses where 7 hobgoblins 2's. took us about 30 mins to do each site.

if we where to field a full squad of 10 im guessing these sites wouldn't take more than about 10 mins and that would be over 100 mil every ten mins coming into the group.

so i have to say as far as group combat for making money, this just may end up being a lot more of a faucet than you guys may think. solo the rewards aren't very good (granted your a total baller if your soloing vanguard sites lol)

one last point, both the spider tank and eccm are worth there weight in robotics as these rats are some super high damage jam happy fools.

more on the other sites when we learn how to farm them.

Ja'Karrah
Posted - 2011.01.08 15:55:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Ja''Karrah on 08/01/2011 16:00:43
CCP keep up the good work. These sites should not be easy. Like another pilot posted Incursions should be mandatory for system upkeep or else too many Sansha will fill up gates and stations auto-piloting in High sec will be a no no. IMO they should have bounties so the people that want to clear the gates have rewards to keep the general public safe in the systems. That would somewhat solve the average new guy or solo pilots concerns for not being able to participate in the invasion. Im not sure if you receive higher concord standing/sec status for doing so but that would be nice.

As for the ISK/per hour Its the dumbest complaint I ever heard... You want to make more ISK faster get a bigger fleet or go buy a more expensive fit for your PvE fits. In a 7 man fleet I can keep constant tank at 6.5k dps omni tank incoming and around 4.5k dps outgoing. these fits are available its just that you need to put some time and effort into this.

I absolutely do not agree with Sansha having infinite cap and not properly using sensor strength to jamming strength. Also fitted ships solely for this purpose while speed tanking (Guardian/Basi) should not be 1 shot that is a little ridiculous.

I thought you were going to make the rewards more for less people in a fleet and less rewards for fleet blobs please tell me why I wouldn't be able to log on alts have them join the fleet and receive the benefits of a site without un-docking from station or even going to the site on the last wave in a rookie ship and put some aggro on the final Sansha on site? BAM i just doubled my isk/hour?!?!?

Did you guys all gripe and troll this hard when wormholes came outQuestion

bgummer
Gallente
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.09 19:47:00 - [147]
 

one thing we where wondering. after two nights of doing sites we noticed the corp didn't get a percentage of the isk payouts. is this intentional or a bug? really seems with as much of a group thing this is that the corp would get a percentage.


anther issue already raised in this thread is non corp gang members accidentally shooting the logi (we used one logi and a spider tank setup) there needs to be someway for a group to get around this, perhaps no concord if your standings are set to +10, or perhaps and option in that situation where the logi pilot can tell concord that it was a mistake and not aggressive before they show and pwn everyone.

in our testing last night we where able to concord the whole group with one shot due to the spider tank. with a way around this issue i can totally see some actual pugging going on in eve.

caladoor
Posted - 2011.01.10 18:25:00 - [148]
 

Didnt get to do a real site but there were a large group of NPC's spawned at the Read the rules beacon.

It was nice to see how the new AI worked i lost several ships in short order and watched a few carriers go boom as well. I am really looking forward to the Incursion i am wondering why the Incursion rats can't have a small chance to drop True Sansha Loot?

Tomaso Yoshitome
Posted - 2011.01.11 16:30:00 - [149]
 

I think these Incursion sites go a long way to redress the balance between the power of NPC's and capsuleers, i've long thought it ridiculous that a single capsuleer battleship can wipe out entire fleets of NPC's in level 4 missions or similar.

To anyone complaining about losing their faction fit battleship to like 10 frigates, consider if you took that same battleship up against 5 or 6 player piloted succubus or similar, you'd likely get ****d. Having properly tough NPC's, where you have to use proper tactics in co-operation with others to prevail goes a long way to redress this balance.

Zelphinine
Posted - 2011.01.11 20:01:00 - [150]
 

Friend and I tested some incursion sites and something that we noticed was that turret tracking seems to be off.

For example I was using rails (optimal range 62 km, tracking 0.013) against a target painted cruiser orbiting at 60 with transversal of 0.005 and I was getting a lot of misses - probably 25-35% of the time. I don't use turrets a lot (mostly missiles and drones) but this certainly seemed off, and my friend flying a tachyon-fit Paladin who's gunnery spec also commented about how he was missing a lot.

Likewise, the Sansha frigates orbiting at 10 km were regularly missing my stationary Dominix. While I can't complain about NPCs missing me, we came away with the distinct impression that there was something weird going on with the tracking calcs.

Has anyone else seen this?


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