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blankseplocked Incursion site testing feedback [Updated 12-17]
 
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CCP Tanis

Posted - 2010.10.07 15:54:00 - [1]
 

[EDIT: Updated the name of the feedback character]

Howdy folks,

When you complete an Incursion site, send an EVE-MAIL to the character "Watcher Poitot":

In order for your information to be valid and for us to actually read the feedback you give, please follow the below format. Failure to do so will mean there is a good chance we will not read what you give us.

Subject: ("Site Name") ("Number of People to complete") ("Hard/Moderate/Easy")
Example: (Age of Doom) (7) (Moderate)

  • Your overall rating for this site ( 1 - crap, 10 - totally awesome)?:

  • How long did it take?:

  • What reward do you think would be fair for this level of difficulty?:

  • What did you find good about this site?:

  • What did you find bad about this site?:

  • Do you feel your group was coordinated?:

  • How do you feel about the NPC behavior?:

  • What ships did you have in your fleet?:

  • Were you using PvE or PvP fit ships to attempt/complete this site?:

  • General Feedback (keep it short and sweet):



Information on how to log into Singularity can be found on this EVElopedia page.
Thank you for helping us test Incursion. We look forward to reading your feedback!


Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2010.10.07 22:43:00 - [2]
 

Out of curiosity, why no cap ships?

Yah they will make some of it easier, but at the same time, it makes the group a huge target for pvp.

Its a good double edged sword.

Dinkelsen
Onyx Commando
Posted - 2010.10.08 06:53:00 - [3]
 

Something came to my mind after sending the feedback mail:

We were doing a Site in F67E-Q and while we were struggling to keep our spider tank operational I didn't have the impression that we were doing that much damage. Still, in time we finished the first wave (after which I had to leave but I heard that they quit that site) It seemed to me that the Sanshas, despite having titanesque hitpoints, didn't do much to repair themselves. Either I didn't notice or the amount of self/remote is more or less insignificant. A battleship I mistakenly hit a few times still had its shield damage when I switched back to it. Strange behavior for a shield tank, or maybe they are passively tanked?

Regards, Dinkelsen

Tas Caern
Posted - 2010.10.08 07:26:00 - [4]
 

I was involved in the testing early on the 7th in Poitot(afraid I didn't catch any site names but did want to leave my general impression as I was running in a guardian and was quite hectic.

ran 2 separate sites, 1st was quite light (frigs only) they still took some time to die but fleet was 6 combats and 2 logi's so it wasn't a big deal, but they still managed to take out some chunks of armor so these are not your papa's sansha. (all of the ships seem to be listed as prototypes and do mad damage)

So we flew into a larger site and promptly the 1st ships in the site were primary and died (the logistics) we tried again with 10 (7 combats 3 logi's) same result, finally got upto 15 (4 logi's and 11 combats) and aligned to the gate before all going in... we were stable most of the fight... close in NPC group liked to neut, two further groups are set up to snipe. AI seems a modified Sleeper AI, they don't just give aggro to 1 ship they seem more random, they will focus on 1 ship for 10-20 seconds then randomly spray damage across half the fleet then focus fire on a different ship (driving your logi pilots mad) getting in range of 1 sniper group will pull you quite far from the other group which will continue to hang around 130+ away from your warp in. Site finally seemed over when CCP Soundwave finally magically popped all but 1 of them and soon with him dead we thought we were done... (had been in the site for more than 40 minutes) Noooo.. a new wave popped up and we made a valiant effort to keep up but most of us warped out.

Site was excellent, AI was Excellent, music was Excellent I give it a 5 for the one reason below...

Takes way too long.. 2 paladins and several Abbas, Megas, domi's and legions (and 3 guardians) all had to focus fire on 1 NPC to make it drop which still took almost a minute apiece, these things are tanked like crazy, and they do damage on par with capsuleers <--ok but scary. It seems unfair to let them intsa-target, pour out 1000+ dps per ship and tank nearly 2000+ dps. (did a similar site later in the day with 50+ during the lag test and they dropped like flies, but how many 50 man fleets are gonna do this in HS?)

Reward was given for completion of the objective.. no bounties, nice system actually and makes sure everyone in fleet gets a payout, but 15mil for almost 2 hours of shooting was poor

Sansha are still doing EM/Therm damage so a heavy PVE tank will likely work best, just bring a good RR-Gang and stay on the ball and everyone should live, all in all with a bit of tweaking this should turn out quite well.

Nice job... can't wait to see the mothership ;p





DarkKnight jr
Minmatar
CompleXion Industries
CompleXion Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.08 11:05:00 - [5]
 

Hope to have the test server working for me soon. Is there any way that there is going to be another test day or 2 coming up?

gfldex
Posted - 2010.10.09 12:05:00 - [6]
 

I did a couple of sites in the last few days. Pilots where random and some had to be told what focus fire means. So I can't possibly tell you if the reward in reasonable by any means.

What I can see are a few problems. If the guy that is dual boxing logistics crashes you will have 5 petitions in your queue. Is that intentinal?

A related problem is the guy who has to leave early. If that happens you have to go 100% corp tax and then distrubute the money by hand. Possible but ugly. On top of that, if the right pilot has to go AFK (logistic/rapier) you can't just all align and warp out. Are you supposed to lose ships in that situation? And yes that's a big problem. I know that you Icelanders are just ignore death and live on. Anybody else on the planet is reproducing with the help of small children, the most destructive force on the planet.

The other major issue is that you wont be able to get it ballanced. If a corp/alliance is able to do the domi+rapier thing they will go through those sites hot knife style. So it's either ridiculous ISK for your trusty vets or it's not *beep*ing worth it for your small corp of friends.

Big pirate corps are gonna like it because they can make very nice ISK without borking their standings. It's going to be a big boost to lowsec and Jita for sure.

iudex
Posted - 2010.10.09 13:13:00 - [7]
 

General feedback: it looks nice so far, but nothing for the casual player.
I tried almost all sites (scanned ~10 systems in Amarr space) and it seems none of them is solo-able. Some can be tanked with a cheating Tengu (faction stuff + crystal set + blue pill) but the Tengu doesn't have enough firepower to take down a Sansha all alone, so I gave up trying this. For group play the Widow is my favourite ship, as jamming seems to be quite useful and the Widow does nice damage as well.

It seems that the reward allocation works like in Faction Warfare plexes, everyone on the grid gets a payment, not sure though, if the payment decreases with the number of people on the grid. If not, there will be huge blobs, if yes there might be a new profession:

The reward thief
What does a reward thief do ? He gets a reward without having contributed anything to the fight. He will usually use a ship with a cloaking device, preferably a covops, so that you don't even see him warping in. He will sit cloaked on the grid and wait till a team cleans a site and completes it's task there. When the last ship is about to die, the reward thief will uncloak (in case the reward are not give to cloaked ships) and get a part of the reward, just for being there. What are you going to do against reward thieves CCP ?

iudex
Posted - 2010.10.10 01:12:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: iudex on 10/10/2010 07:02:20
Some additional thoughts: please make the tests under realistic conditions, if you ask for completion times and fair rewards. The real incursion sites have a resistance malus, which makes tanking much harder than in Poitot and the other testing systems, that don't have such a malus.

Also please fix the drones finally. I've bug-reported this, it was reproduced by BHs, an issue was created 5 days ago. Yet the drones still seem to do too much damage (not in the designated, unrealistic test-sites but on the real incursion systems as shown on the map). For example you see a wreck of a killed Sansha BS in this SCREENSHOT. The BS was downed very fast by a solo Golem. When 4 of 5 drones died, it took ages to get the shields of another BS to 30%, so it must have been the (still) bugged drones, I don't see another explanation. Which means we have unrealistic conditions here, and the difficulty will be completely different on TQ compared to either the unrealistic testing sites like Poitot or the drone-bugged realistic incursions.

edit: More proof for broken drones: CCP THE INCRUSIONS ARE TOTALLY SOLO-ABLE !


Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2010.10.10 06:26:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: iudex
The reward thief
What does a reward thief do ? He gets a reward without having contributed anything to the fight. He will usually use a ship with a cloaking device, preferably a covops, so that you don't even see him warping in. He will sit cloaked on the grid and wait till a team cleans a site and completes it's task there. When the last ship is about to die, the reward thief will uncloak (in case the reward are not give to cloaked ships) and get a part of the reward, just for being there. What are you going to do against reward thieves CCP ?


This is indeed a serious concern. CCP, do you have plans to counter reward-thieves?

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.10.10 07:16:00 - [10]
 

Wow, It takes less then a minute to loose a battleship. I think my dual armor reps activated maybe twice.

Any gang that can tackle an incursion like that can probably rofl stomp your average gate camp.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.10.10 13:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: iudex

The reward thief


The reward thief doesn't matter because the reward is fixed. No matter how many ppl are on grid, you will get 10M for completion per player. What means we will see PvE blobs. o.0

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.10.11 06:31:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: iudex
Yet the drones still seem to do too much damage (not in the designated, unrealistic test-sites but on the real incursion systems as shown on the map).


What makes you think that your 'real incursion systems' are using the same incursion dungeons as the ones we were actually asked to test? The dungeons at the 'real incursion systems' are just placeholders for the actual dungeons we are testing in the 3 designated systems.




Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.10.11 11:01:00 - [13]
 

So... The Sansha now use Juggernaut Torpedo's?

iudex
Posted - 2010.10.11 11:47:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: iudex on 11/10/2010 11:49:08
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas

What makes you think that your 'real incursion systems' are using the same incursion dungeons as the ones we were actually asked to test? The dungeons at the 'real incursion systems' are just placeholders for the actual dungeons we are testing in the 3 designated systems.



The "real incursion systems" can be found on the map with the incursion tags, it is a cluster of connected systems, with a starting area, different "incursion awareness" states (e.g. "assault" and "vanguard") and a headquarter system with a "True power provisional HQ" plex. They are not just placeholders but a finished system, the dungeons all contain the incursion rats.

Once I finished one of the plex sites, the red "system influence" bar (you can see it in this screenshot) moved one tick to the right, so the real incursion system is fully operational, only the rewards seem to be placeholders. What you get in Poitot and the other two masstest-sites are some of the dungeons that can be found in the "real" incursion systems. They have the same names and the same number and type of rats (for example "Nation mining colony" with 5 cruisers and 3 frigs). Only that in the real incursion systems your ship is a bit handicapped (you can see the handicap showing below the red bar) inter alia by reduced shield and armor resistances. That's why the testing conditions are not realistic in Poitot.

Chruker
Posted - 2010.10.11 16:32:00 - [15]
 

I had quite an issue with keeping my spider tank running, since the rats used ECM jamming. Despite raising the basilisks sensor strength from 19 to ~80 a single rat was still able to jam me. So I guess the NPC jamming is still still ignoring the sensorstrength-vs-jam-strength... isnt it about time to that fixed?

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.10.11 16:52:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Chruker
I had quite an issue with keeping my spider tank running, since the rats used ECM jamming. Despite raising the basilisks sensor strength from 19 to ~80 a single rat was still able to jam me. So I guess the NPC jamming is still still ignoring the sensorstrength-vs-jam-strength... isnt it about time to that fixed?

Unless you had been perma jammed it's working as intended since jamming is chance based. You can jam 200 sensor strength with one ECM mod on a Rifter if you get lucky.

Chruker
Posted - 2010.10.11 17:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Catari Taga
Originally by: Chruker
I had quite an issue with keeping my spider tank running, since the rats used ECM jamming. Despite raising the basilisks sensor strength from 19 to ~80 a single rat was still able to jam me. So I guess the NPC jamming is still still ignoring the sensorstrength-vs-jam-strength... isnt it about time to that fixed?

Unless you had been perma jammed it's working as intended since jamming is chance based. You can jam 200 sensor strength with one ECM mod on a Rifter if you get lucky.

The part that is wrong is that modules that are suppose to reduce the chance of being jammed, have zero effect in this when its an NPC that does the jamming. That just seems wrong.

A battlecruiser was jammed the same amount as the basilisk.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.11 18:19:00 - [18]
 

NPC jammers are not using your sensor strength at all when rolling for success/failure. It's not right or wrong, it's just different.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.12 07:25:00 - [19]
 

yes its lazy ccp programming id like to see the jam chance the same as the player on player experience

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.10.12 11:05:00 - [20]
 

I don't think your supposed to be able to do the incursions without ship loss.

Imagonem
Black Bag Ops
Posted - 2010.10.12 11:39:00 - [21]
 

Incursions sounds rather deadly, I've been meaning to fiddle with it but havent gotten the time.
tbh sofar the reports on npcs indicate they need to get even smarter. Breaking a spiderchain behaviour needs to up even more, I think it'll be awesome when people run into 5 incursion bs +2 falcons and they hurt and tank/rr like capsuleer faction fit nightmares. It shouldnt be a safe PvE endevour, it should require you to be on the ball or find yourself having dropped the soap in a sansha prision facility Twisted Evil

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.10.13 07:12:00 - [22]
 

As far as deadly goes: 3 BS + 2 logi had no problem at all (no one went below 80% armor) with the 5-10 ship sites we tried.

Went for a 10-20 site. First tried to split us, which wasn't possible with that setup. The second had our two logis jammed most of the time, so we died in a glorious fire.

These sites require a lot more thinking to get "right" than normal missions, but they still only require thinking in fits (e.g. you need something tacklerish for the fast Sansha ships). But once you have good fits, it seems these sites are not that difficult to do.

Nice to have them, though.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.13 23:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
As far as deadly goes: 3 BS + 2 logi had no problem at all (no one went below 80% armor) with the 5-10 ship sites we tried.

Went for a 10-20 site. First tried to split us, which wasn't possible with that setup. The second had our two logis jammed most of the time, so we died in a glorious fire.

These sites require a lot more thinking to get "right" than normal missions, but they still only require thinking in fits (e.g. you need something tacklerish for the fast Sansha ships). But once you have good fits, it seems these sites are not that difficult to do.

Nice to have them, though.


there needs to be 1-3 man accessible ones even in low sec and 00
And there needs to be more randomness to them

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.15 16:29:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Chruker
I had quite an issue with keeping my spider tank running, since the rats used ECM jamming. Despite raising the basilisks sensor strength from 19 to ~80 a single rat was still able to jam me. So I guess the NPC jamming is still still ignoring the sensorstrength-vs-jam-strength... isnt it about time to that fixed?
Tests have shown that they actually have fixed that… or, indeed, that it never really was the case.

Whether they've "fixed" what those tests show and returned NPCs to a state where sensor strength no longer is a factor is a matter of future tests.

Hasnpbeard
Posted - 2010.10.15 17:13:00 - [25]
 


For Incursion, the missing ewar icons for "NOS/NEUT" on the overview turn out to be a real inconvenience if things stay as they are on Sisi, with a cloud of rats that potentially nos you, it is really a pain to look around which of them might are actually doing it.

Of course the reason this becomes important in the first place, is that the NOS amount seems laughably out of balance.

I would suggest either of both gets fixed.



Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:09:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Freyya on 15/10/2010 22:13:19
Edited by: Freyya on 15/10/2010 22:10:52
I can confirm that, after testing a 0,5 system incursion, the rats are insanely overpowered. 10 Frigs took down my navy domi in ohhh...less than 2 minutes? FRIGS CCP..FRIGS?

2010.10.15 21:58:00

Victim: Freyya
Corp: Advanced Planetary Exports
Alliance: Intergalactic Exports Group
Faction: Unknown
Destroyed: Dominix Navy Issue
System: Ihal
Security: 0.5
Damage Taken: 84092

Involved parties:

Name: Sansha Juggernaut Torpedo / Sansha's Nation (laid the final blow)
Damage Done: 84092

Destroyed items:

Khanid Navy Cap Recharger, Qty: 2
Large Trimark Armor Pump II, Qty: 2
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Hobgoblin II, Qty: 5 (Drone Bay)
Valkyrie II (Drone Bay)
Bouncer II, Qty: 5 (Drone Bay)
Corpum A-Type Energized Reactive Membrane
Sensor Booster II
Sisters Core Scanner Probe, Qty: 9
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Warrior II, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay)
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I, Qty: 2
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger

Dropped items:

Khanid Navy Cap Recharger
Drone Link Augmentor I, Qty: 2
Valkyrie II (Drone Bay)
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane, Qty: 2
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Hammerhead II, Qty: 5 (Drone Bay)
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I, Qty: 2
Warrior II, Qty: 3 (Drone Bay)
Large Armor Repairer II
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Sisters Expanded Probe L



That mixed in with a slave set (2 low grade, 3 high grade, no omega) and an EHP of 155K (in a nerfed offensive/defensive system i might add) i'd say something is a bit skewed.

I understand Incusion is for group PVE but c'mon? 10 Frigs?
My cap was dry in about 40 secs, 3 of my 5 t2 valkyries where oneshotted 10 seconds after launch....

Just make sure those Sansha frigs will drop BPC's because if non NPC Sansha frigs are overpowered like that i want one too!

Ohh and I didn't even get to kill one let alone target for more than 10 seconds aswell...


Reddx Panther
Posted - 2010.10.16 01:05:00 - [27]
 

Ran a few ungated Incursion sites in the 'vanguard state' Ilonarav system with my alt in a Nighthawk. The rats showed a bit of AI and didn't like my drones at all, which is nice, but at the end of the day they will still stay on grid and die like sheep, so why the hassle? They should warp away or something. No sane combat pilot would stay around in a frig without point and backup and aggress a command ship. But then all the rats do. Sigh.

A few message boxes and a progress bar in local don't really convey much in terms of story yet, so what remains is asteroid belts with a few guaranteed re-spawns. Some designer guys had the grand idea to spray some OMG-space-sauce aka 'nebula' into the grids. Please add an option so that we can deactivate those 'nebulas', they are an eyesore and make my graphics adapter go crazy.

Made then the mistake to warp into a gated plex where my Nighthawk didn't do any damage and got ****d within a few moments. Yawn. It's worse than jumping into a sizeable 0.0 gate camp with a destroyer, wtf.

Well, if you want to read some of my suggestions and expectations about the incursion feature, here they are
- Jump gates to incursion systems should be 'shut down' by big concord or local faction armadas, them warning or prohibiting you to jump through (faction standing/ship types)
- agents-in-space where you can get missions for your ship/SP/fleet competence level (level 1-5 agents), please no anonymous message box pop-ups from the unknown game designer entity, but adequate instructions and warnings about the more dangerous plexes
- stations are camped by sizeable Sansha fleets, docked pilots can't safely exit station like during regular wardec (big pain for corps that have lots of assets stashed in an incursion system, they'll be all over the rats to get the incursion to move away)
- stabilized wormholes/jump gate into sansha 0.0 space that can be used by characters with high sansha faction standing to join the incursion as bad guys
- delayed, non-lethal concord intervention similar to faction warfare in incursion systems to encourage pvpers to come through sansha jump gates

Hope it gets much better.



Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.10.16 01:40:00 - [28]
 

The rats are over powered. Yes, this is for team work, but these rats are going to kill newer players too quickly. At a minimum, warp scrams on the rats should be removed for the sake of younger players that would like to join their corp on an adventure.

As for solo players, or people that dislike wasting time waiting on others to get thier **** together, this feature will be ignored.

Alyth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.16 18:04:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Freyya
Edited by: Freyya on 15/10/2010 22:13:19
Edited by: Freyya on 15/10/2010 22:10:52
I can confirm that, after testing a 0,5 system incursion, the rats are insanely overpowered. 10 Frigs took down my navy domi in ohhh...less than 2 minutes? FRIGS CCP..FRIGS?

*snip*

That mixed in with a slave set (2 low grade, 3 high grade, no omega) and an EHP of 155K (in a nerfed offensive/defensive system i might add) i'd say something is a bit skewed.

I understand Incusion is for group PVE but c'mon? 10 Frigs?
My cap was dry in about 40 secs, 3 of my 5 t2 valkyries where oneshotted 10 seconds after launch....

Just make sure those Sansha frigs will drop BPC's because if non NPC Sansha frigs are overpowered like that i want one too!

Ohh and I didn't even get to kill one let alone target for more than 10 seconds aswell...




Sounds about right to me, they seem to be wanting them to emulate players. 10 player frigs with neut and nos (and jugger torpedos by the looks of things :p) would prolly drop a PvE fit domi in about the same amount of time tbh. Remember, Sansha ships get the 100% damage to lasers role bonus on top of skill bonus so its equivalent to being hit by ~8 turrets per ship. 80 small lasers do a lot of damage very quickly Razz

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.10.17 02:38:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Reddx Panther
Ran a few ungated Incursion sites in the 'vanguard state' Ilonarav system with my alt in a Nighthawk. The rats showed a bit of AI and didn't like my drones at all, which is nice, but at the end of the day they will still stay on grid and die like sheep, so why the hassle? They should warp away or something. No sane combat pilot would stay around in a frig without point and backup and aggress a command ship. But then all the rats do. Sigh.



If you were able to solo any of the sites at all in any configuration, you are not playing the same 'dungeons' that everyone else is. (ie: Poitot etal).


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