open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked Drakes - Do they need a nerf?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (32)

Author Topic

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.10.20 08:47:00 - [121]
 

Drakes have been awesome for quite a while now. People have been figuring this out for two years (I think it's been 2 years since QR?) non-shocker. It's pretty much the only ship I will never attack as a minmatar pilot (unless in a tempest/hurricane), because it'll do a ton of damage to me no matter what I do, and probably outtank my dps too.

Drakes are fine, it's eagles (or rather, rails) that need fixing. Dunno what to do about cerbs though. I like the ship, but I still wouldn't use it over a muninn...

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.20 10:45:00 - [122]
 

Ah also, it's just occured to me that if you're talking about nerfing stuff based on its PVE performance - passive tank Ishtar anyone?

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.10.20 10:45:00 - [123]
 

I can't ever remember being killed b a drake. They are everywhere. But atleast in highsec fleet work the drake is an after thought really because it's ridiculous tank and **** poor dps. They make good bait, but that's about as far as it gets out here in highsec. Drakes don't need a nerf. You do that and you get rid of an easy kill, cause no one will fly them no more.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.10.20 19:41:00 - [124]
 

The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.

Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:32:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.

Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.


i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.

MissBolyai
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:40:00 - [126]
 

I beleive the CEO of Habitual Euthanasia may cry...


if ELISE ****ING RANDOLPH EVER CRIED

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.10.20 20:45:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.

Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.


i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.


Yeah, I more referred to those in the "emergent strategies" bit of my original reply here. We aren't saying the ship on its own is overpowered beyond the fact it doesn't have to choose as much as the others its fitting. When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:49:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06
so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?

(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)

Kaliba Mort
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:54:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.


i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.


Yeah, I more referred to those in the "emergent strategies" bit of my original reply here. We aren't saying the ship on its own is overpowered beyond the fact it doesn't have to choose as much as the others its fitting. When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.


The obvious idea here is to maybe fix the missiles so they don't cause the load on the servers? Something is apparently done with fighter bombers to that effect for next expansion.

I'm hoping you are not alluding to nerfing the drake because missiles cause load.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.10.20 20:58:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06
so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?

(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)


All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.

Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.10.20 21:00:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Kaliba Mort

I'm hoping you are not alluding to nerfing the drake because missiles cause load.



Nope, not at all, the balancing part as stated above is considered separate discussion which mostly revolves around class comparison and explaining popularity. We would definitely not nerf it because missiles caused load. That is a side effect on its own.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.20 21:15:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

(lows for PDU and BCU)



I'm sorry, I can not find any mention of a Power Diagnostics Unit or a Ballistic Control Unit in the game.

Verlaine Glariant
FW Scuad
Posted - 2010.10.20 21:19:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Mag's
No
This

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.20 21:49:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 22:06:59
ok ... I have to ask ... you look at the popularity in fleet fights ... since when was the passive recharge in fleet fights enough to save you? i just compared our alliance shield fits. yes the drake can tank 187 dps (46.3hp/s) with passive recharge. but i *highly* doubt that that causes the 30k EHP difference e.g. to the cane fit (120dps tank from recharge 39.5HP/s recharged, for the laugh if I drop the TE and fit a 2nd PDS on the cane it actually recharges almost as much as the drake 45.4hp/s).

i would say the higher raw shield HP and the much higher resists factor in much higher.

also ... I would love to fit 3 BCU without any fitting implants, but i'm not sure the 3% cpu implant is worth it, so i stick to a PDS. most of the other fleet BC fits run with 3 dmg mods or 2 dmg mods + 1-2 TE.

A bigger problem for most other BCs in fleets, locking range.

the drake can easily get 82.5km (75km before bonuses) so it can actually lock at the range of its weapons.
cane (61.9km), harb (68.8km), brutix (75,6km) would happy if they could even lock that far. most of the times they have no problem hitting at the same range as the drake, if they can lock. so e.g. a cane, looses another mid or low, just to be able to lock at its combat range.

also ... I would be interested ... how does your internal research factor in the dmg difference at close range, where every turrent based BC is far superior to the drake (see post 25)

questions over questions.

(edit: added recharge per second)

Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.21 00:57:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Blackhorizon on 21/10/2010 01:03:28
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06
so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?

(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)


All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.

Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.



The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration.

Simple balancing changes:
- Reduce HML flight time by 33%
- Reduce the base CPU on the Drake by 35 tf
- Reduce all HAM CPU requirement by 5%

This should make Drakes with HML less tanky while HAM Drakes are largely unaffected.

Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.21 01:08:00 - [136]
 

Not on topic, just wanted to say seeing so many blue posts in a thread here is encouraging and awesome.

Seeing more of it would be cool too :)

Admiral Mendel
Caldari
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.21 07:31:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Admiral Mendel on 21/10/2010 07:40:54
strange how this is noticed only now, and nobody payed attention when all the caldari were crying foul after the missile deal.
nerf A-hacs while you are at it, they overwhelm capital fleets, that's hAx0rZ.....
seriously....
passive recharge has nothing to do with the drake in large fleet fights, also, the drake is popular now because of all that lag that has been created, and "insta-damage" is no longer required, when there was no lag, they would send u home if u had missiles...now it's the other way around....

FIX THE BLOODY LAG, and the drake will get fixed all by itself......
2 old sayings. #1. The nail that stands out gets hammered......strange...the drake didn't stick out for years....only now ppl began seeing that missiles ain't THAT bad.... go figure....at this rate...we'll see the raven get nerfed, cause some FC will go...bring 250km ravens, and decimates a dread fleet.....everyone will be like ooOOO NERF!!!!!!!!1111xxxxx.....

#2: DO NOT FIX SOMETHING THAT WORKS!

.......the whole deal.....pathetic....

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.10.21 07:32:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 21/10/2010 01:03:28
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06
so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?

(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)


All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.

Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.



The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration.

Simple balancing changes:
- Reduce HML flight time by 33%
- Reduce the base CPU on the Drake by 35 tf
- Reduce all HAM CPU requirement by 5%

This should make Drakes with HML less tanky while HAM Drakes are largely unaffected.



My HAM and HML set ups get exactly the same ehp 83k, so your changes will make the hml set up fairly pointless as you would end up with something with roughly the same ehp as an armor cane, roughly the same align time as the armor cane but 200-300dps less than it

Admiral Mendel
Caldari
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.21 07:42:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Admiral Mendel on 21/10/2010 08:26:38
Edited by: Admiral Mendel on 21/10/2010 08:24:57
P.S. u want to balance the BCs, give all races the same BC, or give the gunboats 75km targeting and the drake insta damage. O7

EDIT: to sum it up : The drake is a popular craft...why? because of lag. let me explain: u can sit like a brick and not maneuver, without this spelling your immediate demise like it would be for a hurri for example who has to maneuver in close quickly to outdps u. in a lag fest...u are lucky if you can use your weapons. also it's superior range allows you to engage targets, which in you couldn't normally due to lag superglueing you to the gate or sumthin. in lag u can't have dedicated ships, cause nothing is bloody moving/working...so u need 1 ship to do all the roles.....so when 1 out of every 20 guys can cycle his weapons....things go down...and u don't have to go....oh no transversal, oh no, out of range, oh no i have no transversal and am primary, i need to change ammo,... best example...small gangs still favor other battle cruisers....

bottom line...drake=lag friendly craft...while stuff that needs to maneuver isn't...and the deal with passive recharge is just cow manure. looking for excuses to nerf a ship that is popular cause of the lag is just pathetic...destroying the players makeshift solution to lag....fix the underlining cause CCP, not our solution to it!!!!

Marmios
Rim Collection RC
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.10.21 08:37:00 - [140]
 

Caldari have finally 1 (!) ship to bring to a fleetfight and you are going to nerf it? Seriously? The option to fit gankand dps is the ONLY option to fit a Drake. If you nerf it, Caldari will be completely useless again. Great.

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.10.21 08:48:00 - [141]
 

nerf the drake to hell and back while you boost the nighthawk pleaseVery Happy

Svennig
Posted - 2010.10.21 08:56:00 - [142]
 

Are you kidding me CCP? You're going to nerf the ONLY decent caldari fleet ship in the game!?? Don't even think about it. Don't even go there. Do not even contemplate it.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.10.21 09:01:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Svennig
Are you kidding me CCP? You're going to nerf the ONLY decent caldari fleet ship in the game!?? Don't even think about it. Don't even go there. Do not even contemplate it.


Wouldnt go that far, i hear ecm is also good in fleets. But yeah ccp are idiots if they do this

Marmios
Rim Collection RC
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.10.21 09:04:00 - [144]
 

Yeah when you count in being primaried most of the time and experiencing 10 secs of the fight until you explode counts as viable tactic, then id agree.

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.10.21 10:38:00 - [145]
 


CCP says:

We are concerned there is a ship that someone with under a year of training can fly that is marginally relevant at the strategic level and this is making people fly it. We'll be fixing that so we can return to making the game super-carriers online. Though we're mostly fixing it because we coded missiles as mini-ships whereas we should have coded them just as special effects trails.

As for the OP that is one extremely high skill drake. If all of your pilots can fly something like that you should be in A-HAC's.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.10.21 10:41:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 21/10/2010 10:46:13
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.

Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.

If the ship's versatility is a problem, because it is becoming too popular, then you should increase the requirements that are needed for flying it effectively. A reduction of several of its core attributes in order to make it a generally thinner ship, would be a good price for its versatility. Highly skilled players will still be able to make use of the Drake, rewarding their many skills with this ship, while at the same time it is sorting out many of the newcomers who only want to get quickly on an easy to fly but yet powerful ship and who do not want to invest into a broad skill set at this stage. The biggest change in popularity will then be seen among the Caldari pilots.

A reduction of a single attribute will not have this effect. Therefore a very small (1%-3%) reduction in many of its attributes like shield, armour, hull, capacitor, recharge times, speed, etc. could counter its increase in popularity without causing a lot of grief among the skilled players or by destroying the ship's versatility.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.21 11:48:00 - [147]
 

Quote:
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.

Okay maybe i am really missing something, but i think i can safely burst your bubble here. You just posted pretty much the definition of a shield tanker. Every regular shield tanked ship does not need to trade dps for tank. Which is also the reason quite some ships are often fitted with shield tank while not designed for that (*cough* brutix and to lesser extend hyperion).

So if you want to add that they have to choose between tank and gank then just remove shield tanking from the game. But i thought the entire idea is that armor tankers have to choose between tank and gank, while shield tankers choose between tank and ewar/other mid slot modules.

The only reason that the drake is unique in large scale fleet warfare with not havign to choose between tank and gank because it is pretty much the only shield tanker used in large scale combat.

So the vibe i am getting from this is that because shield tankers, so the drake, do not need to choose between tank and gank they need to be nerfed away in order to make sure we will not see large shield based fleets. (Yes i know snipe hacs also are usually shield based, but honestly in todays environment they are not that popular).

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.21 12:05:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 21/10/2010 12:52:15

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.

Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.



Before you go nerfing the Drake, you might want to consider that the numbers of them may not have anything to do with how good they are. Kind of like saying Toyota Camrys must be way better than BMWs. There are lots of drakes in fleets right now because:

1. They’re a poor man’s version of AHACs that take less pilot skill and cost less to lose. You need greater numbers of them to be effective, but;

2. Just about ANY RATTER or MISSION RUNNER CAN FLY ONE. Anyone who has FCed in this game more than once can tell you that unless you’re in a “leet PvP alliance” if you call for drakes you can get 100, whereas if you call for just about anything else (including other BCs) you’ll get half as many. All things being equal, 100 of something in this game is generally better than 50 of something else.

Take a look at the list of commonly used PvP ships that someone posted earlier. You see any other Caldari ships on that list? That’s right, exactly one. The Manticore. Know why? Raven pilots already have most of the needed skills to fly one.

As for missiles lagging out your server, if having missiles in the game is a mistake take them the hell out and give me my 14 million skill points back and I’ll apply them to some gunnery skills. When the nano nerf went in you also went way overboard nerfing missles too. Seeing you winge here abouttheir effect on performance makes me wonder if that wasn't somewhat intentional.

I’d love to be able to fly a cerb in a fleet once in a while. Never called for. Raven by all rights should have its place in some kind of PvP fleet too. Doesn’t, except for a few comedy setups. Rokh? Weeeeeellll, ok, but not in an RR gang, and not unless you can't fly something else. Eagle? LOL, dude, cross train and get a Zealot or a Muninn.

There is not a damn thing wrong with the drake that isn’t wrong with Zealot/Guardian gangs except there are lots of them, for the reasons above. If having missiles in the game is causing you grief, cool, take them out, but give me my skill points back. Leave the Drake alone.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.10.21 12:12:00 - [149]
 

I think the Drake is a good example of a problem that exists in other ship classes, too, but is not so exponated as in the Drake - and that's resist bonuses from the ship.

Resists are awesome. They give higher EHP and, at the same time, increase incoming logistics. Most of the resist-bonused ships are absolutely powerful in the logistics-heavy modern fleets: Drakes, Abaddons, Archons, Aeons are all among the top ships, because their drawbacks are all mitigated in large fleets, and their bonuses can shine a lot. Especially that 25% extra resists, on top of extremely good resists to begin with.

Reduce the +5% per level to resists to +3% per level, and compensate the resist drop with extra shield HP on the base hull. This will leave the ships balanced in small fleets where EHP is EHP, and reduces their effectiveness in large fleets where the resists are a key factor.

PS. If you reduce Drake efficiency, you need to have a look at AHACs, too, though :-)

lol internets
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.21 13:14:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 13:17:17
Seeing how Drakes are only flown by skill-less blobbers it's absolutely imperative that they are nerfed, but the way to approach this is to nerf blobbing and lack of skill.

For the etalon of lack of skill you could say take anyone with less SP than the average member of a veteran alliance such as Pandemic Legion. The way to appproach this would be +5 lag for each million SPs you don't have compared to our average member.
This would be fair and just, ridding Nu Eden of these pathetic blobbers.


//edit: to see how this is true just take a look at any killboard with our people on it. Do we fly Drakes? No. Do they people we beat all the time fly Drakes? Yes.

Goes to show a lot about average player skill and what they're flying, and what should be nerfed.


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (32)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only