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Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.11.07 01:29:00 - [811]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 07/11/2010 02:10:36
Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Lili Lu
Ah, but you see it is not an easy counter to implement...


See, there's the problem right there. How come I can't just sit still, turn my modules on, and beat these drakes? Quick! to the forums!
Quick, totally miss the point, and that I was a central figure in the first successful firewall fleet, and hasve been in later firewall fleet fights. I couldn't possibly know what is done in them, and they aren't simply tank and shoot as you are fond of saying. Have you been in one? No, I didn't think so. Oh and why not mischaracterize the arguments by using the usual Drake tactic to boot.
Originally by: davet517

I'm not going to quote all of what you said there bud, but most of it is just plain not correct if you are a competent pilot or FC. Yes a passive drake can pretty much tank other BCs DPS if they sacrifice all of their DPS. You can't kill it, but you won't die to it either unless you suck.
Wow! you mad? Way to miss that I said another BC could warp off leaving the encounter in a draw. So don't address arguments but instead engage in ad hominem.ugh

Originally by: davet517

Yes, if you have a gang of 20 Harbys or Cains and you sit dead still and let 20 drakes out-range you, you will die to them. Here's a clue: Don't sit still and you will kill them if you have a competent FC.
Ok, yes I totally said Harbys and Canes should sit still against drakes. That is why we see gangs of 20 Harbys or Canes regularly trouncing gangs of 20 Drakes. Where did you pull this oft seen scenario out of? Also, btw, Darkside would like to have a word with you.Laughing
Originally by: davet517

Drakes only come into their own when there are enough of them to start alpha striking opposing ships faster than they can be repped, but, again, that's their racial strength. A large fleet of tempests has a similar advantage with the alpha strike of artys, but, unlike Caldari they aren't tanky, they have to use agility as their defense. That's their racial strength.

Ah, so get out there with your agile Tempest fleet and kill those Drake blobs. Waiting, still waiting. :Crickets:
Originally by: davet517

I hate to sound like an old fart, but damn, kids these days. Learn to play the game, and learn to use the racial advantages of the ships you fly before running to the forums looking to get things nerfed until every race of ship flies exactly the same.
Yes, the game is perfect as it is. It should never be changed. We should continue to have Drakes as far and away the most used ship in pvp and pve. Neutral

Also, I'm not youngster in game or out, but I'll let you play the older person, even though it appears your old fart status has not endowed you with the ability to formulate well reasoned dialogue or argument.Sad

Pheonix Kanan
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:05:00 - [812]
 

Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.

Some examples:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/2066-PASSIVECANE.html
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/4657-Passive-Shield-Tanked-Myrmidon.html

Read a blog about the very subject:
http://sleeplessinspace.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerf-drake-rawr-wait-what.html

Obviously there are problems with server lag but that's just abusing the system and can be done with any ship in large enough quantity. Passive tanking avoids lag problems because the tank requires little to no player management to run effectively.

Captain Smugdog
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:11:00 - [813]
 

Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: Captain Smugdog

In terms of soverign warfare and tactics at a macro level, the caldari do not have a place either way (in the long run). What I would be concerned with as a caldari pilot is seeing meaningful reasons to bring shield and missile tech into the big picture of pvp independantly of the drake.


Most of us are. Or, put another way (and as your market data suggests), there are two basic flavors of "Caldari" Pilots:

1. Those who focus on PvE
2. Those training something else



That would certainly seem to be the case.

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:58:00 - [814]
 

Originally by: Pheonix Kanan
Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.


Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?

Pheonix Kanan
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.07 03:04:00 - [815]
 

Originally by: davet517

Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?


It's not that armor tanking doesn't work, it's the fact that passive shield tanking works better, even on some armor tanking specific ships (as per my example).

And it's not just passive tanking, that's just one piece of a very large and complex puzzle. But for the issue of the drake and it being "overpowered", passive shield tanking is, IMO, one of the major factors in why the drake is so widely seen as such.

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.07 03:05:00 - [816]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 07/11/2010 03:24:21

Originally by: Lili Lu
Ah, so get out there with your agile Tempest fleet and kill those Drake blobs. Waiting, still waiting. :Crickets:


Can be done, have done, up to a point. In fact you can kill a drake blob with just about any sniper BS fleet up to a point. The problem, as I'm sure you know, is lag. You can't make use of a Tempest's agility in a lagged out situation. HOWEVER, how Drakes perform in a lagged out situation vs. the natural counters to them is no reason to nerf them. Aside from lag, the reason that you don't see more Drake blobs getting owned by sniper BS fleets has nothing to do with Drakes. It's the fear of AHAC gangs, and, to a lesser degree, bombers that keeps sniper BS in the hanger.

Quote:
Ok, yes I totally said Harbys and Canes should sit still against drakes. That is why we see gangs of 20 Harbys or Canes regularly trouncing gangs of 20 Drakes. Where did you pull this oft seen scenario out of? Also, btw, Darkside would like to have a word with you.


The number of people who are skilled to fly Drakes simply dwarfs the number that are skilled to fly Harbies and Cains, and, to be fair, it takes more player skill to fly a Harby or Cain well, due to the nature of their racial advantages. And, unless you are among the best PvPers in this game, a Darkside gang can kill your Drakes with Harbys, or your Cains with Drakes, or your Drakes with Cains. You also don't see them on these forums crying for nerfs very often.

Val MeR
Caldari
100 gr.
Posted - 2010.11.07 04:01:00 - [817]
 

Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:12:46
Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:07:45
Originally by: Lili Lu
Wall of text


You seem to like talking on the keyboard... may be you should instead just outline where the Drake, in your view, is overpowered? So we can discuss your concerns about that "super-uber-ship"...

Line by line... so people with first hand knowledge can compare it to the other BC...

I will start

Cons

1. If you want great passive tank Drake, you will have to sacrifice DPS, tackle, speed... just about everything. Before you go on at how great a Drake tank is – just play around with fits, you won’t see a miracle Drake that can maintain high ehp and be good at something else… Now consider how many skills goes into shields to even be able to have anything close to a tank (if its not your pve ship where you use every single slot for tank).

2. It can have range at the expense of DPS and longer time it takes to reach the target… no insta damage. Again shooting other BC from 50-70 kms is fun, but isn’t going to give you any advantage cause they can just run away.

3. To make it act like Harby or Hurricane you will have low ehp drake with modest damage and a range of 18 kms.… which is again on par with other ships. Btw in most case scenarios Drake is limited to kinetic damage only, so here is a hint how you can negate any dps coming from Drakes… if it uses anything else – dps is just laughable.

Pros

4. It can shield tank… sorry if it bothers you, but its just what Caldari do better on Drakes. Again to some extent, since in a normal fit it’s a buffer tank – nothing more.

5. It has better range with Heavy Missiles, which is handy in pve… lets you stay out of the main fight in pvp. (Add low priority of Drakes in a fight and you will get the source of that idea that Drakes have great tank… they don’t, they just survive more often.)

6. Its DPS is consistent… if target is sitting still.

7. It's cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few month… although its far from something that you describe here… its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyone…

8. It looks good. Well if you like bricks anyway. :)



Pheonix Kanan
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.07 04:33:00 - [818]
 

Originally by: Val MeR
Wall of text.



The drake is NOT overpowered. It just abuses a system that is already broken.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:05:00 - [819]
 

Originally by: Val MeR


7. It's cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few month… although its far from something that you describe here… its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyone…




If you compare max skilled drake and example max skilled armor ab zealot you will end to result that those take both almost same amount of skill points.

Zealot needs cruiser lvl5, and assault ships lvl4 but it does not need drones, shield skills or mwd skills etc.
Maxed missile skills and medium lazorz with lvl5 supports take almost same amount of time. Drake need for shield lot of skills and it needs hull upgrades lvl4 for damage control too, and you need capacitor skills for drake too if you want to burn with mwd and keep range.

Yes, you can board drake with 5 day old characters skills (in fact you can board bs too with low skills) but to make it work good you need lot of more skills than that.

Rakivic
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:12:00 - [820]
 

Originally by: Val MeR
Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:12:46
Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:07:45
Originally by: Lili Lu
Wall of text


You seem to like talking on the keyboard... may be you should instead just outline where the Drake, in your view, is overpowered? So we can discuss your concerns about that "super-uber-ship"...

Line by line... so people with first hand knowledge can compare it to the other BC...

I will start

Cons

1. If you want great passive tank Drake, you will have to sacrifice DPS, tackle, speed... just about everything. Before you go on at how great a Drake tank is – just play around with fits, you won’t see a miracle Drake that can maintain high ehp and be good at something else… Now consider how many skills goes into shields to even be able to have anything close to a tank (if its not your pve ship where you use every single slot for tank).

2. It can have range at the expense of DPS and longer time it takes to reach the target… no insta damage. Again shooting other BC from 50-70 kms is fun, but isn’t going to give you any advantage cause they can just run away.

3. To make it act like Harby or Hurricane you will have low ehp drake with modest damage and a range of 18 kms.… which is again on par with other ships. Btw in most case scenarios Drake is limited to kinetic damage only, so here is a hint how you can negate any dps coming from Drakes… if it uses anything else – dps is just laughable.

Pros

4. It can shield tank… sorry if it bothers you, but its just what Caldari do better on Drakes. Again to some extent, since in a normal fit it’s a buffer tank – nothing more.

5. It has better range with Heavy Missiles, which is handy in pve… lets you stay out of the main fight in pvp. (Add low priority of Drakes in a fight and you will get the source of that idea that Drakes have great tank… they don’t, they just survive more often.)

6. Its DPS is consistent… if target is sitting still.

7. It's cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few month… although its far from something that you describe here… its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyone…

8. It looks good. Well if you like bricks anyway. :)





This guy is right on the money, the drake is ether tank or gank. IF you fit it to do both it's comparable to the other cursers. In closing the drake is not broken and dont need to be fixed

Shin Dari
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.07 09:41:00 - [821]
 

Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan
Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.


Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?

Passive tanking is easy. All forms of active tanking require a pilot to pay attention. This is the reason why new guys prefer to use passive tanking fittings.

Harotak
Malicious Destruction
Posted - 2010.11.07 14:21:00 - [822]
 

CCP if you absolutely have to nerf it, increase the shield recharge time.

The vast majority of useful PVP drake fits don't rely on passive regen, but the carebears will cry up a storm here on the forums and all the lemmings will hear the crys of a drake nerf and decide the ship is no good anymore. End result is less drake blobs without making the ship useless.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.11.07 19:02:00 - [823]
 

Originally by: Pheonix Kanan
Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.



Thanks for letting us know in advance you have no idea what you're talking about.
You don't passive tank Drakes for PVP.

Those fits you linked, along with passive Drakes in general, are mission ships.
Please stay the **** out of nerf debates until you learn basic terminology.

Pheonix Kanan
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.08 00:26:00 - [824]
 

Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 08/11/2010 00:44:19
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

Thanks for letting us know in advance you have no idea what you're talking about.
You don't passive tank Drakes for PVP.

Those fits you linked, along with passive Drakes in general, are mission ships.
Please stay the **** out of nerf debates until you learn basic terminology.


Thanks for letting me know you are a tool. People can and do passive tank drakes for PVP. It's more cookie cutter than putting 3 tri-marks on a RR ship. It's not like they don't have other gang members to tackle, or does everyone in EVE fly around solo?

The fits I linked are not mission ships, they are LOL fits to show how stupid the tanking is. Pay more attention to the point of the arguement instead of being a total douche bag. Please STFU until you learn that not everyone has the same opinion as you, tool.

Edit: Allow me to re-iterate the point. DRAKES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. MISSILES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. CALDARI ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. I love the drake, missiles, and caldari ships and want them to be PVP powerhouses, but as it stands right now, the reason why everyone has a problem with the drake in particular is that during laggy situations (caused by large numbers of people fighting in the same area in huge blobs of ships), the tanking abitily of the drake does not suffer as badly as the tanking ability of other ships. What I'm trying to say (Duchess) is that the drake is FINE, the system itself is broken.

Leksi Bar'zuk
Posted - 2010.11.08 02:00:00 - [825]
 

Originally by: Harotak
CCP if you absolutely have to nerf it, increase the shield recharge time.


This is unacceptable. Any nerf is unacceptable. The drake is the recipient of a lag advantage (much like it benefits amarr ships who don't have to worry about reloading).

Nerfing ships in any way shape or form because some sov block wants to pile 3000 players into one system is the epitome of stupid. I'm all for changing animations and making the nodes more efficient, but re-balancing ships for a total-lag scenario is rediculous.

MsBio II
Caldari
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.11 14:41:00 - [826]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.

When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.


1. Put ANYTHING in a blob scenario and it becomes very powerful. 50 drakes vs 50 canes (canes win with dps alone)
2. Fix missiles and u fix your load problems.
3. Drakes are only popular because CCP makes node crashes popular in fleet battles.
4. Drakes are STILL the crappiest ship ever they are only marginally useful for baiting since they have very low dps compared to it's counterparts.

VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:08:00 - [827]
 

Originally by: Marmios
Caldari have finally 1 (!) ship to bring to a fleetfight and you are going to nerf it? Seriously? The option to fit gankand dps is the ONLY option to fit a Drake. If you nerf it, Caldari will be completely useless again. Great.


this. Ban CCP for thinking of nerfing the drake

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:15:00 - [828]
 

a drake is completely ineffective against _______.

Try to figure it out because it already exists in game.

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:18:00 - [829]
 

Edited by: OT Smithers on 12/11/2010 18:18:24
(Lifted from Ships and Modules Forum)

Q3 Economics Report, now showing in the Information Portal.

1 Hurricane 29,346
2 Drake 24,012
3 Vagabond 13,296
4 Zealot 11,800
5 Sabre 10,919
6 Harbinger 10,888
7 Dramiel 8,675
8 Rifter 6,350
9 Cynabal 6,139
10 Thrasher 4,773
11 Tempest 4,468
12 Megathron 4,207
13 Rupture 4,061
14 Armageddon 4,039
15 Hound 3,962
16 Myrmidon 3,831
17 Abaddon 3,668
18 Loki 3,622
19 Manticore 3,622
20 Tengu 3,611


Looks like the Drake is off the top, while the other Caldari ships are falling off the bottom.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.11.12 19:31:00 - [830]
 

Quote:
Looks like the Drake is off the top, while the other Caldari ships are falling off the bottom.


Also notice the fact that one of those Caldari ships is a stealth bomber - and the Minmatar one is not only also on that list but higher up.

Whinis 31
Posted - 2010.11.12 19:52:00 - [831]
 

As far as the skill trees go drakes take little to no time to become effective in where as harbies or zealots takes months. My friend recently just started the game 10/31/10 and yesterday 11/12/10 is now able to fly a fully tech 2 fitted drake minus the launchers ( 1 week away). However I have amarr friends that are on month 3 and just getting tech 2 lasers as they need almost 3 times the skills for medium lasers as apposed to missiles. shield skills also take relatively low time to train for passive tank compared to armour tank. However aside from skills not sure on how they fair in battle yet.

Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar
Instapop Industries
Posted - 2010.11.12 22:23:00 - [832]
 

Originally by: Pheonix Kanan
Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.

Some examples:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/2066-PASSIVECANE.html
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/4657-Passive-Shield-Tanked-Myrmidon.html

Read a blog about the very subject:
http://sleeplessinspace.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerf-drake-rawr-wait-what.html

Obviously there are problems with server lag but that's just abusing the system and can be done with any ship in large enough quantity. Passive tanking avoids lag problems because the tank requires little to no player management to run effectively.


I don't disagree with your hypothesis, but the bonuses that the Drake gets add to the problem. There is no other BC that gets both a defensive bonus (+5% to resists) and a bounus to damage (+5% to kinetic damage from HAMs & HMs).

IMO, it is the combination of these bonuses that make the drake over powered, in comparrison to other BCs.

Replacing the damage bonus with a fitting bonus, ore replacing the resistance bonus with a ROF bonus would put the Drake (bonus wise) in line with the other BCs. It would need testing to ensure the right balance of bonuses and to make sure that the Drake (or another BC) was vastly superior than the other BCs.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.12 22:37:00 - [833]
 

Originally by: Whinis 31
As far as the skill trees go drakes take little to no time to become effective in where as harbies or zealots takes months. My friend recently just started the game 10/31/10 and yesterday 11/12/10 is now able to fly a fully tech 2 fitted drake minus the launchers ( 1 week away). However I have amarr friends that are on month 3 and just getting tech 2 lasers as they need almost 3 times the skills for medium lasers as apposed to missiles. shield skills also take relatively low time to train for passive tank compared to armour tank. However aside from skills not sure on how they fair in battle yet.

That is very vague...

You do not mention what missiles he will be getting, HAM's or Heavies. That means he could have a close combat Drake or a range Drake. It takes on average only 30days to get Lasers and you get the short and ranged versions while your friend has to pick one or the other.

I doubt in 12 days he has Weapons Upgrade 4, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5 to fit the ship. Nor does he have the Battlecruiser skill high enough to heavily benefit from the massive tank or the 5 anti Frig Drone with DI to make them effective.

In short he is getting one type of tech 2 weapon on a ship that lacks the support to be flown properly.

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.11.12 23:32:00 - [834]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
That is very vague...

You do not mention what missiles he will be getting, HAM's or Heavies. That means he could have a close combat Drake or a range Drake. It takes on average only 30days to get Lasers and you get the short and ranged versions while your friend has to pick one or the other.

I doubt in 12 days he has Weapons Upgrade 4, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5 to fit the ship. Nor does he have the Battlecruiser skill high enough to heavily benefit from the massive tank or the 5 anti Frig Drone with DI to make them effective.

In short he is getting one type of tech 2 weapon on a ship that lacks the support to be flown properly.



Nonsense! If you have learned nothing from this thread, you should have at least discovered that the Drake possesses a special magical quality that bypasses even training time. It is just THAT good.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.11.13 00:46:00 - [835]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 00:50:21
Quote:
Nonsense! If you have learned nothing from this thread, you should have at least discovered that the Drake possesses a special magical quality that bypasses even training time. It is just THAT good.


And naturally, you don't need any missile support skills to make it put out non-lolworthy dps, no sir, you can be in a fully fitted high-damage pwnmobile within 2 weeks of starting this game!

Actually I just made an EVEmon plan of the lowest character I have on here (About 1.7mil SP) - it takes over a month for battlecruiser 4 and t2 heavies alone.
To make this even clearer: that's with no fitting skills, no missile support skills, no shield, cap or propulsion mods.

As I'm fairly sure I've stated before: A Drake is easy to train for. A well skilled/fitted Drake is not.

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.11.13 02:50:00 - [836]
 

Edited by: OT Smithers on 13/11/2010 02:50:58
As though skills and training were necessary. It's a Drake my friend.

A DRAKE!

Just owning one turns shivering noobs into bitter vets. I don't even think it could be nerfed -- it is that powerful. When two of them face off it's server armageddon divided by zero. Sure, more people prefer the Hurricane, but that's only because they cannot handle the power.

Leksi Bar'zuk
Posted - 2010.11.13 06:11:00 - [837]
 

I passed out with my drake and came back to a clone vat. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not... I was told the drake cannot be killed by anything. Must have been hot-dropped by a titan or something................

it440
Caldari
OZ industries and Technology
Posted - 2010.11.13 10:16:00 - [838]
 

just spoke to Leksi Bar'zuk in game, he found his drake in hanger, he must have been really drunk, lol he should have known better to think anything could have detroyed a drake...

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.11.13 11:24:00 - [839]
 

Originally by: davet517
Edited by: davet517 on 23/10/2010 03:09:16
Edited by: davet517 on 23/10/2010 03:07:57

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.

As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.



IF, you really want to investigate this, load up toad and run some numbers. You folks inside the firewall have access to much better information than we do. It might sound cynical, but I don't think you're really interested in investigating. What you're doing here is trolling to fan the flames of a whine thread to give youself some political cover.

Drakes aren't overpowered, and I think you know that. They have a well earned reputation of being the tankiest of the battlecruisers with anemic DPS compared to some of the others. If you nerf their tank they'll just be the BC with anemic DPS compared to the others, and take their place on the shelf next to all of the other Caldari ships that never get used.

The only reason they are so popular is that they are an "everyman's" counter to AHACs and other popular compositions that take a lot more isk and SP to field effectively. The reason that you see so many of them isn't because they are OP, it's because so many pilots have the skill to fly them, being a popular PvE ship.

Leave them alone. IF missles are making your server cry, fix that.

EDIT: For the record, I seldom if ever fly Drakes in combat. I'm arguing for all the younger pilots who are having fun and being useful in fleet fights with them.

That might be true if everyone started out as Caldari and made the logical progression to Caldari battlecruisers.

They don't, they start out as Amarrian, Minmatar, Gallante and Caldari and then for some reason they cross train to fly the drake.

Now what could that reason be. Why would so many newbies decide to get a drake over their own BC's? The answer is obvious.


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.11.13 11:59:00 - [840]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 12:03:03
Quote:
The answer is obvious.


The fact it steamrolls level 3 missions? That's why a few of my corp trained it.

Quote:
People can and do passive tank drakes for PVP


Yes, idiots bringing their mission ships passive tank them. PVP fit Drakes on the other hand are buffer fitted.
(Did you just not know the difference? Either way you shouldn't even be part of this debate.)

Quote:
The fits I linked are not mission ships


Yeah, they actually are mission/general PVE ships. That's what passive tanking is used for, and the only place it's actually impressive. Good PVP fits do not passive tank.


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