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Hennata
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:02:00 - [61]
 

The current set of low sec PvE rewards is very limiting, not in value, but in numbers of players it can support without destroying said value. There is finite demand for LP store items, and even a single large sized corp of a hundred or more doing constant farming of them would crash the market very, very bad. I don't think the universe can support 10 extra Navy Geddons a day without it crashing to something comical.

The current lowsec population is in a equilibrium defined by the supply and demand curve. As more players try to enter the market in FW or L5, the value tanks and players leave until it maintains the current equilibrium.

This is unlike highsec L4 which can supply a larger group of items without difficult relocation, it allows other methods of play like AFK mission running, mission bounty/salvage farming, and such that makes it far less vulnerable to oversupply. Nullsec rewards that is heavy in bounties also is immune to oversupply.

Since low sec can not support large number of pilots without rewards falling below highsec, there naturally isn't much pilots in lowsec.

Its like the case of afterburners drop. If you drop a dozen in a 10 minute mission, the end result is that it is worth nothing. Lowsec produces a very, very narrow basket of LP goods that is very vulnerable to over production.

Quote:
1) Making PvE a bit safer so that more people will get in low sec (increasing rewards will not work, it need to be safer to entice "carebears", the rewards are already higher than high sec);

The mega-sanctum-bears could certainly get enticed into low if it paid anything. There are also many that wouldn't mind doing something like sanctum farming if it weren't for sovereignty bull that makes you do 6 hour long ops to shoot some crappy large tower or finding all your crap now 30 jumps in behind red space in the time you took a vacation. Not everyone is in highsec because they fear risk.

Quote:
Camps are very, very easy to avoid. First, you know where they're probably going to be ahead of time, and you can go around those choke points. Or you base past them, and just use a shuttle to get through the camped area.

My time scouting/avoiding camps is my time not making isk. You might say something about an alt, but I'd rather leave my alts afk-ing in a domi than making no money flying around while taking my attention.

Quote:
There are plenty of lowsec systems that offer multiple Q20 agents in the same system, providing a total reward far in excess of anything available in highsec.

Those are what, navy LP? At their terribad conversion rates one would be better off doing missions for "item of the week" from easy to get to and huge selection of high sec lp stores. The ability to fly a billion dollar marauder comfortably that have 25% more dps than their t1 non-faction counterparts while having loot/salvage is more then enough to make it up the extra lp.

And blessed is the player that have market window open while running missions.... Which probably takes as much effort as hitting the direction scanner.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:02:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 27/09/2010 00:07:53
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I've moved many BS's into and out of lowsec, often without scouts. The trick is to use dotlan or other map to find good backdoors. Basically, avoid any direct route from a hub to your lowsec destination. Any iffy jump, dock up and pod travel back and forth to see what the system looks like on the other side.

Alternately, set a buy order for the battleship you want in lowsec, and just transport the mods in in a fast cruiser.


And i've taken BS's all the way deep into 0.0 and back to hisec many times. The problem is with missions you'll find yourself going back and forth through the same gates for hours a day, over the course of weeks or even months. You're a much easier target than someone just visiting the area or passing through. The locals are going to take note of you everytime they see you around after the first kill, and just sit on a gate and wait.

And i'm sure you'll come up with another complicated way to increase chances of avoiding that, but it's all just work for the mission runners, while gatecamping remains easy and low risk.


Not complicated - go to one of the places with multiple q20 agents same station. Decline missions that make you jump out of system. But I do agree it's a pain, and being able to highsec mission without paying 100% attention is worth some loss of income. I'm just mentioning that there is ISK to be made in lowsec to counter the commonly heard allegation that lowsec offers nothing. It offers lots, but you have to pay attention all the time and you'll still end up dying sometimes - and those are two very real downsides.

edit to address the above: the kind of supervet player who can afford a marauder and do the excel sheets it takes to maximize isk per soul-killing hour probably can do better in highsec. I wouldn't know, I'm not one of those players. Been playing for a year and a half. What I can say is that lowsec offers lots of ISK and rewards for more general players, along with its greater risk. At my level of SP, isk investment and capability to pay attention to a highsec l4 mission, I make like 20 mil an hour. I do way, way, way better in lowsec.

Maybe it's like this: the old money can stay in New York and ply their wealthy trades, but the younger and the poorer ought to head west.

Orange Lagomorph
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:25:00 - [63]
 

That's the main problem with mission-running in lowsec, yes. The agents say, "Herp derp, go five jumps this way, seven jumps that way, five jumps this way, six jumps this way...." Even if you find a backdoor route to your destination every single time, chances are you're going to get caught approximately 1 in every 10 missions either when undocking, en route, or during the mission. If your battleship is worth, say, 500m ISK (or if it's a Tengu, for example), you make no profit and have completely wasted your time.

In fact, even if your battleship is worth only 200m ISK, you'll still make a much higher profit running missions in highsec.

I don't run missions myself with any regularity, but I'm pretty confident this is an accurate assessment.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:29:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 27/09/2010 00:33:21
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
That's the main problem with mission-running in lowsec, yes. The agents say, "Herp derp, go five jumps this way, seven jumps that way, five jumps this way, six jumps this way...." Even if you find a backdoor route to your destination every single time, chances are you're going to get caught approximately 1 in every 10 missions either when undocking, en route, or during the mission. If your battleship is worth, say, 500m ISK (or if it's a Tengu, for example), you make no profit and have completely wasted your time.

In fact, even if your battleship is worth only 200m ISK, you'll still make a much higher profit running missions in highsec.

I don't run missions myself with any regularity, but I'm pretty confident this is an accurate assessment.


That's odd, I've never gotten a kill mission sending me more than one jump away. In lowsec, more often than not the kill missions have been in the same system.

The exception is FW agents, which are they're own thing, but those missions shouldn't be done in a battleship anyway. That said, FW missions are extremely profitable. Even including travel time, when I need to grind ISK, I make more ISK an hour than the excel calculators with faction fit marauders in highsec.

So, I reiterate, lowsec is largely unpopulated not because it doesn't pay, but because losing ships sucks. That's just the nature of lowsec. I'd like to see more income sources for pirates, and more income associated with level 5's leading to small corps basically trying to own systems. But saying there's no money in lowsec isn't true. There's plenty.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:40:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Hennata
The current set of low sec PvE rewards is very limiting, not in value, but in numbers of players it can support without destroying said value. There is finite demand for LP store items, and even a single large sized corp of a hundred or more doing constant farming of them would crash the market very, very bad. I don't think the universe can support 10 extra Navy Geddons a day without it crashing to something comical.

The current lowsec population is in a equilibrium defined by the supply and demand curve. As more players try to enter the market in FW or L5, the value tanks and players leave until it maintains the current equilibrium.


Good point.

Orange Lagomorph
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:54:00 - [66]
 

I'm not saying there's no additional ISK to be made in lowsec missions. I'm saying it's not enough additional ISK and although I believe you when you say there's a certain window that yields significant additional net profit, most missions runners aren't going to risk it or bother doing the legwork and guesswork needed to find it.

Months down the road, when they're flying a Tengu or a Golem anything worth ~1bn ISK or more, in fact even the niche you speak of would no longer be worth the risk. Occasional losses would butcher a mission-runner's profit margins.

I didn't realize L4 lowsec missions sent you to targets so close by. People I know who run L4 missions complain about being sent long distances, but maybe that's only in highsec... or I misheard. Frankly, I find missions utterly boring and only do them when forced to, to grind standings for example.

I've heard that chained lowsec courier missions and FW missions can make quite a lot of ISK, and that might be something I look into at some point just to do it.

Adyny Rieph
Posted - 2010.09.27 13:32:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Adyny Rieph
See, I just went to lowsec to prove my own point. I bought a Caracal, fitted it with ratting modules and off I went. I lasted 27 minutes. First system I went to was empty. Second had a few people in it so I started going belt to belt killing rats. After 27 minutes some guy in a Federation Navy Comet warped in right on top of me, scrammed and killed me. I was a T1 cruiser in T1, un-named modules. What was the point? There wasn't one. That's why lowsec is deserted, because the people who whine about it being deserted, IE, the people like that one that just killed me, made it that way.

Wink
So, you went out.. In a ship that wouldn't be able to defend itself into low sec. You found a system with people in it, if which, you didn't know the people. Now you're here telling us low sec is empty due to your own (admitted) stupidity.

You were easy meat bro. If I would have seen you, I would have killed you too.

This is EVE Online. Not WoW, not, Second Life and most certainly not Hello Kitty.

EVE.





I see we are ideologically opposed. I wouldn't kill anybody because they were "easy meat" as you put it, just like I wouldn't rob an old lady in real life after just watching her collect her pension and walking down a dark alley to get home. I'm telling you lowsec is empty exactly because of what happened to me. Nobody is going to go and do a mission there is they're going to get blown up even if they're in the crappest ship around, and podded, if the enemy can lock you fast enough, just because "they can". Nobody is going to haul goods through there or mine there if they're going to get blown up. I got blown up there in a Tormentor once.

I know this is EVE online, and I know that there is danger and the risk of losing much money that you have worked hard for, and I like that, it makes it fun, and I wouldn't want to play the game without it. However, blowing up people just because you can is a ****ty thing to do, and you can't deny that. The killmail is worthless because a Federation Navy Comet flown by a 2+ year old player is obviously going to beat a Caracal being flown by a 1 week old player every single time, and the money he would have made, even if every single one of my modules dropped, would have been less than 300,000 credits. So what can you do with that killmail? I know what you can't do with it. You can't present it as proof of your skill.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.27 14:23:00 - [68]
 

If you learn how to use the directional scanner, set up undock safes, set up solar system safe spots, work in a group, fit warp core stabilizers when you are flying ships in and out that you do not want to see combat in, and any of the other precautions, you can enter and be successful in low sec fairly early on. Even low SP pilots can survive ratting in T1 frigates and running level 1 missions till one gets to know the locals and feels comfortable putting more expensive ships on the line.

Assault ships can maneuver through low sec fairly easily and they can run many exploration sites, handle most BS rats, and most if not all level 3 missions. Use this till you have enough refined/sold loot to fly larger ships to do level 4's in cheap fit BS's.

All that being said, new players must also learn how to use the star map to find quiet areas of low sec, and then fly around the area for awhile to see if you find pilots that like to camp the gates.


Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
That's the main problem with mission-running in lowsec, yes. The agents say, "Herp derp, go five jumps this way, seven jumps that way, five jumps this way, six jumps this way...." Even if you find a backdoor route to your destination every single time, chances are you're going to get caught approximately 1 in every 10 missions either when undocking, en route, or during the mission. If your battleship is worth, say, 500m ISK (or if it's a Tengu, for example), you make no profit and have completely wasted your time.

In fact, even if your battleship is worth only 200m ISK, you'll still make a much higher profit running missions in highsec.

I don't run missions myself with any regularity, but I'm pretty confident this is an accurate assessment.


In my experience, even with lower quality combat agents, the most jumps I have seen were two, except courier.

As for loot in low sec, before the recent loot drop rate changes, low sec loot is way better then high sec. I have had more then a few meta 4 damage controls and mining upgrades drop in low sec and never seen one drop in high sec. That being said it has been a long while since I have logged in and played.


Slade

Otto TheRed
Gallente
Scions of Ithaca
Valor Empire
Posted - 2010.09.28 14:58:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
...there's zero chance of surviving a camp in anything that isn't a cov ops or fast aligning frigate, so not taking PvE ships there just makes sense.


I have to respectfully disagree. I have lived as a scanning/trading carebear in low-sec for about 6 months. Although I admit that I spend a lot of time in covert ops and blockade runners, when I clear radar, mag, and low-level combat sites I fly either a Vexor or Myrmidon. And I have successfully run gate camps in those ships many times (usually when returning to base from a clear).

My advice is to practice the MWD+cloak tactic until it is second nature. Believe it or not, I have never lost a ship to a low sec gate camp, although I have been ganked in belts and combat sites.

With caution, experience, willingness to take a calculated risk, and a streak of RP, low sec can be a very fun place to live.

(Prof T - I frequently read and enjoy your constructive posts in the forums, so don't take this as a flame or troll)

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.09.28 15:34:00 - [70]
 

Quote:
So low sec is made barren by the people living there. The possible solutions are a combination of 2 things:
1) Making PvE a bit safer so that more people will get in low sec (increasing rewards will not work, it need to be safer to entice "carebears", the rewards are already higher than high sec);
2) adding a lot of low sec space with several alternative routes so that the pirate will have to spread thin and there will be always an alternate route to a destination point.


I couldn't disagree more. Lowsec can be made pretty darn safe with some attention and scouting. Pirates are going to gank anything they can and your just going to have to live with that, remember, being the prey can be as fun as being the predator.

The problem is that firstly, while lowsec is a little more profitable than highsec, its not very much so. Certainly not enough to justify doing it for isk, you will be interrupted regularly by hunters, it cannot make up for the loss there.

However I think the fundamental problem is instead the profitability of highsec. Basically no risk unless your a complete idiot, and the payout for missioning is quite acceptable for many people.

In addition, lowsec is avoidable, your average highsec carebare will never be exposed to it unless they actively seek it out. I say shrink highsec, make lvl4 missions relatively frequently go into lowsec (such that you will need to do that if you intend to keep getting standings without pause). Seperate the 4 empires with lowsec as well (but ensure you don't have just one easily camp-able corridor). It needs to be in the way for people to become comfortable in the environment.

Lastly if the above is implemented, there needs to be an easier way for people missioning in an area to randomly fleet up together so they can more easily protect themselves while running those missions.

For example, you could have automatically generated area fleets, and prompts when missioning for an agent "do you want to join motsu area missioning fleet? y/n" etc.

Theres a lot of options, but suggesting that lowsec's problem is that its too dangerous is just naive. It's just a function of experience, necessity, and reward.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:21:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Covert Kitty
Quote:
So low sec is made barren by the people living there. The possible solutions are a combination of 2 things:
1) Making PvE a bit safer so that more people will get in low sec (increasing rewards will not work, it need to be safer to entice "carebears", the rewards are already higher than high sec);
2) adding a lot of low sec space with several alternative routes so that the pirate will have to spread thin and there will be always an alternate route to a destination point.


I couldn't disagree more. Lowsec can be made pretty darn safe with some attention and scouting. Pirates are going to gank anything they can and your just going to have to live with that, remember, being the prey can be as fun as being the predator.


The "usual" reply: low sec is safe, you can easily pass through it.

True but totally useless.

Low sec is "safe" for people passing through, but too unsafe to do PvE activity in it (essentially any activity involving the environment/NPC that will make you a static target for a long timespawn).

So long as players can be easily probed they will not go in low sec to do PvE.

So if you want more people in low sec you should accept to have a harder time finding them in exchange for a higher numeber of targets.

Originally by: Covert Kitty

I say shrink highsec, make lvl4 missions relatively frequently go into lowsec (such that you will need to do that if you intend to keep getting standings without pause). Seperate the 4 empires with lowsec as well (but ensure you don't have just one easily camp-able corridor). It needs to be in the way for people to become comfortable in the environment.

Lastly if the above is implemented, there needs to be an easier way for people missioning in an area to randomly fleet up together so they can more easily protect themselves while running those missions.

For example, you could have automatically generated area fleets, and prompts when missioning for an agent "do you want to join motsu area missioning fleet? y/n" etc.

Theres a lot of options, but suggesting that lowsec's problem is that its too dangerous is just naive. It's just a function of experience, necessity, and reward.



And the usual "you should be forced to play as I saw fit" plus a wonderful suggestion to help gankers and ninja looters. Rolling Eyes


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:28:00 - [72]
 

According to the various comments here Low Sec is, apparently, both deserted and unpopulated and at the same time full of lethal pirates.

Interestin. Neutral

C.



Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.01 11:18:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Cailais
According to the various comments here Low Sec is, apparently, both deserted and unpopulated and at the same time full of lethal pirates.

Interestin. Neutral

C.



Well, the "pirates" say it is deserted and underpopulated (BTW the last QUEN say that there is a average of 4 active person in each low sec system), the "carebears" say there are too many pirates.

Both thing can be true.

The "pirates" find too few targets for their tastes, the "carebears" find they are hunted too often for their tastes. It is more a problem of number of predators against the number of preys than a problem of absolute numbers.


Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.10.01 11:45:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Hennata
Most highsec carebear I know don't mind losing a set of +3s (not that you'd lose them in low) and a T2 fitted battlecruiser, but they do mind having crap empire standings that cuts them off from space that can't be fixed without spending hundreds of mil in tags and even more in mission time. FW and L5s is just expensive in those ways. Lowsec L4 is a joke since unprobeable fits gimps income compared to a loot as you blitz best lp store marauder.
700DPS unprobeable legion disagrees with you.

zaqq
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.01 12:14:00 - [75]
 

it won't change... period.

RutilusUnus
Posted - 2010.10.01 12:30:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Hennata
People keep repeating the same old argument:

"If you buff lowsec rewards, power blocks would come."

SO WHAT. Let them come. Unlike null sec, it is
extremely unlikely that any single power block can dominate
a area. They can't hide in their bubbled cynojammed dead end
system farming isk. There is massive defender's advantage in
null, and that is why a power block can dominate any particular
large rewards. In low sec everyone that want the piece of the
action get can there quickly without needing a JF or titan
Bridge, none of this flying into the middle of nowhere to hit
a timer.

For incursion, to gain the rewards on needs to put stuff on
grid and thus vulnerable. If some power block wants to farm
then everyone else can kill them, unless they can bring more
numbers than the rest of eve, as opposed to bored folks that
would get the middle of nowhere to shoot static objects that
really shuts down the sanctum-ing.

I'm sure their is thousands of pilots in highsec that wouldn't
mind getting into fights if it doesn't involving flying far far
out into null or hours chasing to just get rewards of some
crappy t2 mod drops or annoying to covert lp.

Some local pirates might complain that they can't no longer
do fun things like smartbomb gates all day. However, even
ninja looting a battle is far more rewarding than that kind
of activity.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/wrong%20lex%20luthor/bwonder20/lex-luthor-wrong1.jpg

Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
Posted - 2010.10.01 12:51:00 - [77]
 


Highsec = London
Lowsec = Mogadishu
Nullsec = Pyongyang

So, yes, I reckon lowsec is more dangerous and worthy of some reward buffing.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.01 13:19:00 - [78]
 

Making Low Sec Matter is a personal project of mine that has a committee working on a story-driven Low Sec proposal with a "criminal" theme but which will include perspectives from a variety of play styles. It's a five-week project at the end of which we'll have a Low Sec proposal ready to post in Assembly Hall.

Please do feel free to come and participate in discussion with the committee in the public area of the project forums.


Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2010.10.01 13:56:00 - [79]
 


Low sec is a place where aspiring corporations and players that can't break into 0.0, can get out of high-sec and get some pvp experience.

If the risk-reward balance was different, it wouldn't fulfil that 'nurturing' role. It'd be swamped by massive 0.0-style coalitions

Equally if the security situation was different, it'd not give the corp/player the chance to get pvp experience

What low sec does require is joining a corp, and Eve is supposed to be all about the player corps

FW makes it easier for corps and individuals to make the transition by providing another layer of protection.

My Postman
Posted - 2010.10.01 14:02:00 - [80]
 

Actually there is no reason to go to lowsec, and its because of the mentallity of its inhabitants. Further:

Minerals are not worth mining. If i want to mine i do it in highsec or i go WH space for high ends. Its much more unlike i get shot in WH than in lowsec, and i have to spam directional every 20 sec. in both. But i can mine high ends in WH.

There is no use to try to get my domi/rattler there. Firstly i have to scout the route to my agent, be aware to have a insta undock ready at station, and might have my mission interrupted by pirates. Than i sit the s*** out at safespot for one or two hours. Finally when finished missioning its not sure to make it out of lowsec.
This completley ruins my isk/hr. I could have done two or three juicy missions in highsec, depending how friendly my agent was.

Every miner/missionrunner knows that. Why do you think every missionrunner and his mother has gone deep into highsec? Right, its because of the mindnumbing declining of missions offered in lowsec.

Its deserted and it will stay so. Nobody can force carebear to lemming and jump off the cliff for nothing.


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