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blankseplocked Perspective of a new scammer
 
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.09.24 10:58:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 24/09/2010 11:26:27
I really have nothing to add to this subject.

Lord Nagumo
Posted - 2010.09.24 11:01:00 - [32]
 

Before I begin pardon the spelling im a bit buzzed and its very late here.

Eve is a challenging game for sure the learning curve is steep and just getting by for the new guys can be next to impossible.
If they are not being popped and podded in high sec and low sec the they are constantly getting scammed or ganked for their stuff out side of jita 4-4 and other places.

These scams you see are keeping the ******s away true but what about the guys that are just starting and get hammered by a scam then quit you are potentialy keeping away good players that just need a chance to get ahead as well.

My point is yes we hate scammers but they are a necary evil along with the flashy red guys in low sec they to are needed evil to keep the market flowing.Cool

Buck Marui
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.09.24 11:25:00 - [33]
 

There are generally very few "scammers" in EVE in my opinion, thats because I define a scammer as someone who uses there main character for the scam then lives with the consequences.

Nobody does that, they all use faceless alts, this requires no skill and can be done by the stupid of the stupid without reprecussions, its only ironic that these people then say there victims are stupid, quite frankly as it is in EVE at the moment, all the stupid is kept in Jita playing with each other, and thats fine by me. I'm off elsewhere playing with friends.

Scamming with your main character requires intelligence, a willingness and capability to live with the moral and ingame implications of your actions, you will never see this in EVE.

You could go to the extreme of saying that scammers are actually really bad in that regard, and to be bad at scamming...? Well thats just a joke.

Furthermore, I don't doubt that the OP is an alt of a character that has played for a while, and uses this knowledge of the game and its base mechanics to gain an advantage over people who are not as knowlegable of these things.

You are not a scammer in this case, you are simply an opportunist praying on begginers, this is not difficult, intelligent or in any way praiseworthy.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2010.09.24 11:27:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Buck Marui
Furthermore, I don't doubt that the OP is an alt of a character that has played for a while, and uses this knowledge of the game and its base mechanics to gain an advantage over people who are not as knowlegable of these things.

You are not a scammer in this case, you are simply an opportunist praying on begginers, this is not difficult, intelligent or in any way praiseworthy.


QFT. It's one thing to take peoples money in this easy kind of way but bragging about it is just terrible. I bet you can even tie your own shoelaces.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.09.24 11:51:00 - [35]
 

This is quite possibly the ****tiest thread ive ever been in. Glad im here.


Sendraks
The Spice Weasels Must Flow
Posted - 2010.09.24 14:11:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Buck Marui
There are generally very few "scammers" in EVE in my opinion, thats because I define a scammer as someone who uses there main character for the scam then lives with the consequences.


I concur, if your character is going to live with the repercussions of being ward decc'd, suicide ganked and otherwise hunted, I think fair enough. The repercussions are there, but as you say, ccp makes it too easy for people to scam anonymously and avoid the repercussions.

I have no issue with scammers. It would annoy me if I fell for one, but then I'd be annoyed at my own stupidity with my annoyance level varying dependant on how obvious the scam was with hindsight. But that's annoyance with me, not with the scammer.

People who spam local with scams are annoying, but only because they're spamming. Anyone who spams local is annoying, so what they're actually spamming is almost immaterial.

The only point, for me, where scamming enters the realm of the morally questionable is when it is done for "laughs". When the sole purpose is to cause another player grief and for the scammer to derive amusement/satisfaction from that. That is the behaviour of the mentally/emotionally subnormal, as it is simply using online media to torment other human beings. Tormenting other people for laughs is abnormal behaviour, the mechanism doesn't matter.

In this regard, using any of EvE's game mecahnics (piracy, ninja salvaging, suicide ganking, scamming etc etc) just a means to **** people off for your own amusment is the behaviour of a warped mind. Scamming ingame is not inherently morally dubious, only the intent behind it is.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2010.09.24 14:24:00 - [37]
 

CCP should do something about these evil scammers.

Bluelynx
Blue Sun Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.24 17:18:00 - [38]
 

If I get blown up in low/null by tewwible piwates, I have the option of getting another/better ship, and/or more blob, I mean, friends, and blowing them up in return.

CCP's latest trailer that they're so fond of espouses the virtues of revenge. How does one get revenge on someone that is NPC corp'd and never undocks?

Also, local spam. Also having to wade through all the poop nuggets on contract just to find one legit contract for the item you're after.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.09.24 18:27:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Joe McAlt
The Sixties are dead, long live New Eden!


I will GLADLY trade new age conservative values for smelly hippies and cheap drugs.

iKill Giants
Eternal Phoenix Rises
Posted - 2010.09.24 20:20:00 - [40]
 

Scamming is the art of making ignorance a resource.

Ealthor
Amarr
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
Posted - 2010.09.24 22:16:00 - [41]
 

I personally don't try to scam people, though I have no major problems with the practice.

I wonder if you're aware of the phrase 'You can't cheat an honest man'. The essence of a scam is to make someone believe that they are getting a very very good deal; a deal so good that they'd be mad to miss it. You're making them think that it is they who have got a one-up on you. While this person may not have gone out of their way to trap and misdirect people into making a mistake they are more than happy to take advantage of the mistakes others have made or misfortunes they have suffered. Are they really 'honest' and without blame in this situation? They tried to play the con-game, their greed made sure of that, and they got outsmarted.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.09.24 22:46:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ealthor
I wonder if you're aware of the phrase 'You can't cheat an honest man'.


In my experience honest men tend to be the ones who fall victim to other cons. I had an alt spy checking out a potential war dec opportunity corp last weekend and there was a particular newbie (professed newbie I should say) who made quite a decent sum of isk just by making up outlandish reports of his trials and tribulations in lowsec and general begging. He left the corp some days later to "try FW," and all-told fleeced around 3billion from various idiots. Considering the opportunity cost to the scammer: 1 week of casual corp chat, 1 alt with around 2 weeks worth of training, and a 20min stint of begging each night... i'd say he did pretty well. Curiously enough, almost none of the victims even noticed the ruse at any point, and i'm almost certain that some of them are still wiring him isk as he pan-handles to them in private channels.

Gistatis Tribunus
Posted - 2010.09.24 23:23:00 - [43]
 

I see contract scams more as a stupid test. If you don't take the time to read whatever the hell you're buying and just click accept contract, you're stupid. Stuff in local like 'i'm quitting i'll double your isk' and '1 trit for everything cos i'm quitting' is easily avoidable, along with contract scammers you know are fake. Just block them.

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Posted - 2010.09.24 23:36:00 - [44]
 

I have to say this is one of the better eve-o forum posts of the year for me.

Even though I personally dont engage in scam artistry (currently Twisted Evil) I find that I love the fact it is a legitimate part of the game. It adds to the very nature of eve I think.

Joe McAlt
Posted - 2010.09.25 00:27:00 - [45]
 

Ah but I cannot help but see scamming as part of the larger aspect of PvP in Eve. This has become a universe where minding your own buisness is reason enough to be ganked for no better reason then that it amuses the ganker. Should the victim cry real tears then so much the better. It may be a game, but the emotions are very real. Give peace a chance indeed. Twisted Evil

Raid'En
Posted - 2010.09.25 00:28:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 25/09/2010 00:31:01

scammers are bad guys because ;

* we waste time because of them, to avoid being scammed.
* we waste money because they steal the money of potential customers.

no need to be a white knight ; scammers are one of the things who slow our ISK-machine(s), that's all.

for me they are on the same plane as the suicide gankers ; they change something who seems safe to something where we need to be a minimum cautious.

Joe McAlt
Posted - 2010.09.25 01:50:00 - [47]
 

My only complaint is when the scammer, griefer, ganker, pirate or whatever a person calls themselves tries to deny what they are. I applaud their wonderful lack of caring for the delicate sensibilities of their hapless victims, but to say ďoh well, itís only a gameĒ after theyíve extracted a gallon of tears from a pimply faced 16 year old by destroying everything he or she has built over the last 6 months just because of the lollsÖÖwell that just destroys the purity of their fiendishness.

Those are real people on the other side of the missile, AC shell, or transaction and most of those victims, the helpless and weak carebear especially, have no means in skill, ISK, or frankly will power to fight back. Please do not dishonor the craft by saying I didnít really mean to hurt anyone. Of course you did, and you are more then willing to laugh at their cries of anguish over it

Wrecker Red
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.25 02:22:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Joe McAlt
My only complaint is when the scammer, griefer, ganker, pirate or whatever a person calls themselves tries to deny what they are. I applaud their wonderful lack of caring for the delicate sensibilities of their hapless victims, but to say ďoh well, itís only a gameĒ after theyíve extracted a gallon of tears from a pimply faced 16 year old by destroying everything he or she has built over the last 6 months just because of the lollsÖÖwell that just destroys the purity of their fiendishness.

Those are real people on the other side of the missile, AC shell, or transaction and most of those victims, the helpless and weak carebear especially, have no means in skill, ISK, or frankly will power to fight back. Please do not dishonor the craft by saying I didnít really mean to hurt anyone. Of course you did, and you are more then willing to laugh at their cries of anguish over it



I got scammed by a guy with a Megathron named as a Navythron first time I bought some plexes.
Two months later I've bought five plexes scamming with the same method.
I don't know where I was going with that, but I think you have the right idea.

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 02:38:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Lord Nagumo
Before I begin pardon the spelling im a bit buzzed and its very late here.

Eve is a challenging game for sure the learning curve is steep and just getting by for the new guys can be next to impossible.
If they are not being popped and podded in high sec and low sec the they are constantly getting scammed or ganked for their stuff out side of jita 4-4 and other places.

These scams you see are keeping the ******s away true but what about the guys that are just starting and get hammered by a scam then quit you are potentialy keeping away good players that just need a chance to get ahead as well.

My point is yes we hate scammers but they are a necary evil along with the flashy red guys in low sec they to are needed evil to keep the market flowing.Cool


My answer to this question is in my original post:

"What about the victims? Do scammers cause players to quit? I'm sure it happens, but likely more rarely than the haters would like us to imagine. Probably a lot less than the number of players who quit due to the highly acclaimed "steep learning curve". But in the end, aren't scammers just another element of that learning curve? The price for the benefits of a sandbox game? I think everyone can agree that to fall for 99% of the scams in Eve a new player may face, someone has to be ... less than intelligent, or less than on-guard. You may bounce off the space stations and rocks in EVE, but it is NOT a Nerfed game. If you are "beaten" by a scammer, it's no different than being beaten in PVP because you weren't paying attention. If you don't have the stomach or fortitude to take a hit from a scam, or your ego just implodes from it, then you're not strong enough to play here either."

That's just my opinion. Scamming IS mean. People do get slammed by falling for a scam, and I'm sure people have quit. But people quit over many various kinds of EVE "tragedies". My point is, you can't hate scammers just because some people get scammed and quit. People quit EVE all the time, in rage-emo hissy-fits.

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 02:48:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Buck Marui
There are generally very few "scammers" in EVE in my opinion, thats because I define a scammer as someone who uses there main character for the scam then lives with the consequences.



Interesting. I define scammer as a player that uses any of their alts to run scams. Who gets to decide whose definition is the right one?

Quote:

Nobody does that, they all use faceless alts, this requires no skill and can be done by the stupid of the stupid without reprecussions, its only ironic that these people then say there victims are stupid, quite frankly as it is in EVE at the moment, all the stupid is kept in Jita playing with each other, and thats fine by me. I'm off elsewhere playing with friends.



At least they are smart enough not to use their main alts because they see how much people hate on scamming, even if those same people are hypocrites. Outnumbered by hypocrites is still outnumbered.

Quote:

Scamming with your main character requires intelligence, a willingness and capability to live with the moral and ingame implications of your actions, you will never see this in EVE.



You're referring to the "long con?" That means you feel that ponzi schemers who take the game for hundreds of billions after a two-year setup are more moral somehow? More skilled? It's like you oppose murder but respect mass murderers.

Quote:

Furthermore, I don't doubt that the OP is an alt of a character that has played for a while, and uses this knowledge of the game and its base mechanics to gain an advantage over people who are not as knowlegable of these things.



That's pure speculation, and you give no grounds for your assumption. That you have no doubt of something you have no evidence to support speaks volumes on your character and the value of your input.

Quote:

You are not a scammer in this case, you are simply an opportunist praying on begginers, this is not difficult, intelligent or in any way praiseworthy.


It certainly is easy to categorize someone when you are also the one arbitrarily assigning your own definition to the topic at hand: scammers.

A scammer is no more preying (not praying, that's religion, I don't do religion) on beginners than someone setting prices when they don't know better, tricking them into PVP, ambushing them at gate camps, etc. I never said scammers were the fluffy bunny part of the game. I'm just saying it's no more immoral than any other hazard newbies face in EVE.

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 02:54:00 - [51]
 


Quote:

I have no issue with scammers. It would annoy me if I fell for one, but then I'd be annoyed at my own stupidity with my annoyance level varying dependant on how obvious the scam was with hindsight. But that's annoyance with me, not with the scammer.



THANK YOU. For once, someone on this forum who is willing to take responsibility for their OWN ACTIONS. Much respect brother.

I agree with what you also said about people who scam/ninja/gank/grief just to **** people off. Just because they LIKE being mean. Those people are a little... off. Like I said, when my SKILLS finally finish training to a respectable level, I will be able to drop scamming as an income source and get on with things much more fun than wasting time in a chat room.

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 03:01:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: cBOLTSON
I have to say this is one of the better eve-o forum posts of the year for me.

Even though I personally dont engage in scam artistry (currently Twisted Evil) I find that I love the fact it is a legitimate part of the game. It adds to the very nature of eve I think.



Thank you! I think it's ironic that so many people are appalled by EVE's lack of nannyism when it comes to the subject of scamming. As Ron White (?) would say, "You just can't fix stupid." Why would anyone expect CCP to come up with a solution to stupid?

Joe McAlt
Posted - 2010.09.25 03:44:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Joe McAlt on 25/09/2010 03:53:03
Originally by: Princess Bride
Originally by: cBOLTSON
I have to say this is one of the better eve-o forum posts of the year for me.

Even though I personally dont engage in scam artistry (currently Twisted Evil) I find that I love the fact it is a legitimate part of the game. It adds to the very nature of eve I think.



Thank you! I think it's ironic that so many people are appalled by EVE's lack of nannyism when it comes to the subject of scamming. As Ron White (?) would say, "You just can't fix stupid." Why would anyone expect CCP to come up with a solution to stupid?



These words are music to my ears. No whining about doing whatís right or concerning ourselves with the possible ramifications of our actions. If some unstable teens can't handle it, who cares? Itís not like he is likely to find out where we actually live. If itís just on more failure in his pitiful pointless existence that he'll have to carry around as a painful memory for the rest of his life, hey, no skin off my nose. Ah such lovely sentiments of self gratification!
To paraphrase Gordon Gecco, not only is greed good, but ďat least in Eve,Ē its legal!



Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 04:33:00 - [54]
 


Quote:

These words are music to my ears. No whining about doing whatís right or concerning ourselves with the possible ramifications of our actions. If some unstable teens can't handle it, who cares? Itís not like he is likely to find out where we actually live. If itís just on more failure in his pitiful pointless existence that he'll have to carry around as a painful memory for the rest of his life, hey, no skin off my nose. Ah such lovely sentiments of self gratification!
To paraphrase Gordon Gecco, not only is greed good, but ďat least in Eve,Ē its legal!



If the memory of losing some fake money in a spaceship game when he was 13 is his most "painful memory" that he carries around "for the rest of his life" then he's one seriously lucky guy. Imagine a 40-year-old guy, waking up in the middle of the night next to his wife, sweat soaking the sheets, exclaiming, 'OH GOD NO MY ISK!!!!'
His wife, used to this by now, having married a permanently scarred human being says, 'Was it the EVE dream again hon?' while rubbing little circles on his back.

Yeah, he'll need therapy for sure.

Rolling Eyes

Joe McAlt
Posted - 2010.09.25 05:18:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Princess Bride

Quote:

These words are music to my ears. No whining about doing whatís right or concerning ourselves with the possible ramifications of our actions. If some unstable teens can't handle it, who cares? Itís not like he is likely to find out where we actually live. If itís just on more failure in his pitiful pointless existence that he'll have to carry around as a painful memory for the rest of his life, hey, no skin off my nose. Ah such lovely sentiments of self gratification!
To paraphrase Gordon Gecco, not only is greed good, but ďat least in Eve,Ē its legal!



If the memory of losing some fake money in a spaceship game when he was 13 is his most "painful memory" that he carries around "for the rest of his life" then he's one seriously lucky guy. Imagine a 40-year-old guy, waking up in the middle of the night next to his wife, sweat soaking the sheets, exclaiming, 'OH GOD NO MY ISK!!!!'
His wife, used to this by now, having married a permanently scarred human being says, 'Was it the EVE dream again hon?' while rubbing little circles on his back.

Yeah, he'll need therapy for sure.

Rolling Eyes


You are correct of course. I for one have always thought 13 year olds were far to prone to fits of sorrow. If being made a fool of by an adult bothers him, heck he was as good as lost anyway. amirite?Confused

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 06:09:00 - [56]
 

Quote:

You are correct of course. I for one have always thought 13 year olds were far to prone to fits of sorrow. If being made a fool of by an adult bothers him, heck he was as good as lost anyway. amirite?Confused


I suppose you run around behind EVE Pirates and go "WAIT! Don't pod that poor guy. He may be 13. He may be 'bothered' if you do that. For the rest of his LIFE."

PIRATE: You will be podded if you do not pay the 10 million ransom in the next 30 seconds, carebear.

PILOT: But I'm 13! Please don't scar me for life!

PIRATE: Wait...WHAT? You're 13? Oh, I'm so sorry dear boy! Here, let me reimb you for your ship. Please PLEASE don't let this effect your self esteem!

Joe McAlt
Posted - 2010.09.25 06:27:00 - [57]
 

If you havenít noticed, Iíve been agreeing with you from the start. In fact, I invite you to find a single sentence that contradicts anything youíve said. I do admit doing so in ways that make no excuses and no denials and that you are engaging in a morally reprehensible activity. As far as children go, is a valid fact that you cannot know what age your victim might be, nor can you predict how it will affect them. The fact that you continue clearly indicates that you simply do not care how old, emotionally stable, or mature your victims are.

I have in no way insulted you for any of this, I have simply stated facts. You derive pleasure and profit from the pain and loss of others. Good for you. I donít understand at all why, after you yourself defended your actions so strongly, that you would take offense at having another person talk about them at their most base level. I donít believe in candy coating the road to the dark side.

PointZero OneIsk
Minmatar
Scammers
Posted - 2010.09.25 06:44:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
Scamming is pathetic and the domain of psychopaths who can't play the game properly.

It's only good isk per hour because you are too stupid to make better isk honestly.

Evil or Very Mad Disgusting Evil or Very Mad



i see what you did there :)

.01isk

Princess Bride
Caldari
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.09.25 18:31:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Joe McAlt
If you havenít noticed, Iíve been agreeing with you from the start.



Oh I know. I assumed that everyone else would recognize your sarcasm for what it was. I did. Sorry I didn't play along with your simplistic plan, but I just don't have the tolerance for BS that I used to. So I just responded to your real feelings on the issue.

Quote:

As far as children go, is a valid fact that you cannot know what age your victim might be, nor can you predict how it will affect them. The fact that you continue clearly indicates that you simply do not care how old, emotionally stable, or mature your victims are.



Nope, I will play the game at the same level without asking for ID or driver's license from those I interact with within the rules of the game. Just like a suicide ganker, pirate, PVPer, or any other player would.

Quote:

You derive pleasure and profit from the pain and loss of others. Good for you. I donít understand at all why, after you yourself defended your actions so strongly, that you would take offense at having another person talk about them at their most base level. I donít believe in candy coating the road to the dark side.



Addressed sentence by sentence:
Assumption (and a poor one). Insincerity. Assumption (again, and a poor one, again). Overdramatization.

Your input has so far been a disappointing mish-mosh of sarcasm, poor guesswork and unenlightened and unoriginal thought. THOSE are the facts. I have not taken offense. I have laughed at your self-gratifying "insights" and mocked you. To offend me, you would have to do a lot better than the commonplace forum flames above.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.09.25 19:04:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 25/09/2010 19:07:56
The most hated list of EVE Careers -

1: Scammers
2: Theft
3: Spying
4: Piracy (Includes Suicide Ganking)

Why are scammers on the top of my list and piracy the bottom?

First off.. scammers spam the living #### out of the chat room to push there very obvious fraudulent crap.
Secondly... your sitting on your ass... bold faced willing to decieve some poor weaker minded n00b out of his ISK... legit? Yeah... does he deserve that? Likely since he doesn't know how to read... does that justify your side of the coin?

Your joking right?


Lastly - So what did you do today? Sat on your ass docked in s tation for 8 hours straight and walked away with a potential 250 mil if not a little more unless you got a hoard of lemmings.



I have to say this much... after dipping into the dark side of EVE (A little bit of low sec fun) I have a lot more respect for the yar peeps.

At least they work hard for their kills... whereas your just a couch potato with little brain power and little movement.

Sorry pal... you lost on this one.

EVE Online is a "You get out what you put into it".

If your paying 15 bucks a month for sitting on your ass doing nothing but spamming and hopping for idiots to walk by... your wasting your time.


PS: Theft - Destructive... while its a legitimate and albeit a very humorous job to watch and read about... some of us put a lot of time and effort into what we do and when someone just scoops it up and walks off... well its funny until it happens to you.
Spying - Destructive to friendships and trust... but then most people don't know the meaning of the word "common sense".
Piracy - Well duh... I wouldn't call this hated as of now... annoying... inconvenient yes... but I'm quickly starting to warm up to it... just a polite version of it tho. If you call shooting someone polite. :)
*Note I only would do such things in low sec as it is*


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