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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.09.26 21:06:00 - [751]
 

I am for using plexes to buy neural remaps.
Hell im for using plexes to buy sp.

You can already do the latter- by selling the plexes for isk and using the isk to buy a character.

So whats the big deal?


Divus Diavolo
Posted - 2010.09.26 23:14:00 - [752]
 

/vote against plex4remap!

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.09.27 00:42:00 - [753]
 

Originally by: el Sabor
Doesn't bother me since I get the same advantage by planning my training long term.


WRONG!

At max learning skills, you have a total of 96.8 with an average of 19.36 per attribute.

If someone who remaps to get max learning on each skill they will train as if they have 121 total skill points with an average of 24.2 per attribute.

They will train faster than you. So it essentally means real life money = faster skill training.

But with CCP keeping quite and they fully programed the feature already, there is no stopping this PLEX to train faster feature. Oh well. Confused

Nullity
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.27 07:25:00 - [754]
 

Edited by: Nullity on 27/09/2010 07:25:28
Originally by: Future Mutant
I am for using plexes to buy neural remaps.
Hell im for using plexes to buy sp.

You can already do the latter- by selling the plexes for isk and using the isk to buy a character.

So whats the big deal?



The big deal is that under the current system, nothing is generated when you sell PLEXes. All the rewards (i.e. ISK) you receive for trading a PLEX to someone were brought into the game through proper channels, and then given to you. If PLEXes could be directly traded for a remap, that would essentially generate a reward in-game for real life money.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.09.27 07:59:00 - [755]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
WRONG!

At max learning skills, you have a total of 96.8 with an average of 19.36 per attribute.

If someone who remaps to get max learning on each skill they will train as if they have 121 total skill points with an average of 24.2 per attribute.


Wrong.

You can put a maximum of 15 points into any attribute for a remap. Regardless of how often you remap, you can only put 15 points into any attribute. If you do put 15 points into one attribute, you'll only have enough points left to put 9 into a second attribute.

Creative shuffling of neural remaps will allow someone to plot an optimum training plan to fly a battleship a week earlier, with the skill training plan over 2 years evening out with someone who stayed the patient course training all the Int/Mem skills in one block, then remapped to Per/Wil. For each different optimal plan, add another year for the break even: if you want to do a Cha/Wil for leadership and trade skills, add an extra year to the one-per-year remapping plan, and you'll break even. The person who buys neural remaps is not buying SP faster than you, they're just buying access to skills (and thus equipment or activities) earlier in their training plan than someone who isn't purchasing extra remaps.

The extra points added by implants and learning skills are irrelevant to the discussion of neural remaps.

Rhok Relztem
Caldari
CGMA Synergist Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.27 08:25:00 - [756]
 

I think this proposal is blowing this way out of proportion. I don't see any valid reason to be against plex for neural remapping except that it could open the door to a cash shop which I would most definitely be against. Besides that, this proposal has no merit imo.

NOT supported.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.09.27 10:35:00 - [757]
 

Two thumbs up. Stop CCP now from even getting near the slippery slope.

Besides that, putting it on Sisi then not commenting on it anywhere is like trolling the players:
like it's deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Trolls of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.09.27 13:04:00 - [758]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Wrong.

You can put a maximum of 15 points into any attribute for a remap. Regardless of how often you remap, you can only put 15 points into any attribute. If you do put 15 points into one attribute, you'll only have enough points left to put 9 into a second attribute.


Correct.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Creative shuffling of neural remaps will allow someone to plot an optimum training plan to fly a battleship a week earlier, with the skill training plan over 2 years evening out with someone who stayed the patient course training all the Int/Mem skills in one block, then remapped to Per/Wil. For each different optimal plan, add another year for the break even: if you want to do a Cha/Wil for leadership and trade skills, add an extra year to the one-per-year remapping plan, and you'll break even. The person who buys neural remaps is not buying SP faster than you, they're just buying access to skills (and thus equipment or activities) earlier in their training plan than someone who isn't purchasing extra remaps.


You contradict yourself. You truly do not have a grasp on how this works. You honestly think some who can remap a often as they want will not complete a year or two year skill plan faster than someone who can only remap once a year? You entire argument is hinging on a skill plan that uses the same two attributes the whole year. No one does that.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
The extra points added by implants and learning skills are irrelevant to the discussion of neural remaps.



I would not say that because both amplified the difference between someone who remap once a year and someone with unlimited remap.

TK420
Caldari
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.09.27 18:50:00 - [759]
 

Don't go down this road CCP. You're one of the few companies that has the integrity to stand by your playerbase and not screw them. Go down this road and you'll be just like every other MMO company out there, and you definately will not get any more of my money.

Rognin
Minmatar
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.09.27 18:59:00 - [760]
 

WTF CCP!

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.27 19:18:00 - [761]
 

Not Supported.

Added functionality of PLEX wouldn't be anything but good. Read my discussion in the linked thread.

Bela'flek
Posted - 2010.09.27 19:19:00 - [762]
 

Signed.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.09.27 19:43:00 - [763]
 

Originally by: Rhok Relztem
I think this proposal is blowing this way out of proportion. I don't see any valid reason to be against plex for neural remapping except that it could open the door to a cash shop which I would most definitely be against. Besides that, this proposal has no merit imo.

NOT supported.


Another sane human being... IN MY EVE?

Rodrigo Talavera
Navy of Xoc
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.09.27 21:42:00 - [764]
 

WTF CCP!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.09.28 03:04:00 - [765]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 28/09/2010 03:22:54
Originally by: Marconus Orion
You contradict yourself. You truly do not have a grasp on how this works. You honestly think some who can remap a often as they want will not complete a year or two year skill plan faster than someone who can only remap once a year? You entire argument is hinging on a skill plan that uses the same two attributes the whole year. No one does that.


I'm not contradicting myself. Over a 2 year period, the person sticking to 1 remap to switch from Int/Mem to Per/Wil will achieve the same training goals as the person switching infinitely many times between Int/Mem and Per/Wil remaps.

At present we have no option but to use the same remap for 12 months. If you plan carefully, you can prepare a more-than-a-year plan involving just your Int/Mem skills (Electronics, Engineering, Science for starters) and a more-than-a-year plan involving just your Per/Wil skills (Spaceship Command, T2 ships, weapons).

Just because you aren't using a 15+9 remap for one specific set of skills for 12 months doesn't mean noone is doing it. You are a sample size of 1, in a population of over 300k. A sensible person will realise that after basic ship flying skills are taken care of, many support skills and learning skills fall into the same Int/Mem skill plan: cap, shield, CPU, PG, EWAR, targeting, etc. So once you can fly a basic ship, spend a year focussing on support skills.

Quote:
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The extra points added by implants and learning skills are irrelevant to the discussion of neural remaps.



I would not say that because both amplified the difference between someone who remap once a year and someone with unlimited remap.


The addition of learning skills and implants diminishes the impact of a neural remap on SP/hr. The people who will lose the most when comparing one remap per year versus remaps on demand are those people who refuse to train learning skills or use implants. A remap in this instance can add 200% to the SP/hr acquisition. Once you add learning skills and implants the difference in SP/hr acquisition is reduced to ~50%.

Where an infinite-remap character will get an advantage is on training plans that involve switching between more attribute plans than total years spent training. Thus switching frequently between Int/Mem and Per/Wil gives an advantage in the 2-year timeframe, at the end of which the 1-remap-per-year player will have caught up. Switching between Int/Mem, Per/Wil and Cha/Wil gives an advantage in the 3-year timeframe, so you could be flying a command ship before your friend. By the end of 3 years your friend will catch up and eventually be flying that command ship with the same skills, for far less ISK or RL money spent on remaps.

If one was to use PLEX for remaps over the course of a year to squeeze into a command ship faster, one would spend about a billion ISK on remaps. It might be cheaper in the long run to simply buy a character off the bazaar with the appropriate skills already in place.

Some people are money-rich, others are time-rich. On the one hand, we complain that money-rich people will gain an advantage by buying remaps or characters. On the other hand we complain that the time-rich people are running missions all day so they must be macros.

Let's be clear about one thing: you don't have to be money- or time-rich in real life to be ISK rich in EVE. Selling remaps for PLEX simply means those with the smarts can build their ISK fortunes and gain a temporary advantage over other players in the short to medium term.

Jurinak
Posted - 2010.09.28 06:17:00 - [766]
 

don´t introduce this f... microtransactions in eve! I stopped playing every mmo who do this and try to extract some extra bucks from me, the end.. they got nothing from me

Wikis
Posted - 2010.09.28 08:48:00 - [767]
 

+1

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.09.28 11:00:00 - [768]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
I'm not contradicting myself. Over a 2 year period, the person sticking to 1 remap to switch from Int/Mem to Per/Wil will achieve the same training goals as the person switching infinitely many times between Int/Mem and Per/Wil remaps.


Ok buddy. You do your full year of nothing but training skills with the same primary and secondary attribute only. I salute you for such dedication on never deciding to train anything else during that full year.

"Hey guys. My engineering skills are 1337!!!!!"

"Nice. What ships can you fly?"

"Well... um... I can fly any Gallente t1 frigate and shuttles."

"Umm.... GTFO!"


Anyways... you have fun with that. Wink

Cromo Effect
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.09.28 15:15:00 - [769]
 

NEURAL REMAPS VIA PLEX HAS LITTLE TO NO AFFECT SO THIS PROPOSAL IS SIMPLE A WASTE OF TIME. T'AMBER HAS EXAGGERATED THE EFFECT AND THUS CAUSED EVERYONE TO BLINDLY GIVE THUMBS UP. I SUGGEST YOU ALL DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH BEFORE FOLLOWING SOME LOUD MOUTH CSM MEMBER. SHE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ALL THE DETAILS, YET IS RAGING ABOUT IT.

NOT SUPPORTED!

Zevran Arainai
Free Space Tech
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.09.28 16:14:00 - [770]
 


MisterArx
Posted - 2010.09.28 20:02:00 - [771]
 

Edited by: MisterArx on 28/09/2010 20:04:16
DO NOT WANT!

Lukior Corvax
Osiris Entreprises
Posted - 2010.09.28 20:07:00 - [772]
 

Looking like a large mass of fail ahead.

Do not want.

Gauss Gun
Posted - 2010.09.29 00:12:00 - [773]
 

+1

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc

Posted - 2010.09.29 10:31:00 - [774]
 

I support this thread.

NeoShocker
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.09.29 10:51:00 - [775]
 

No PLEX for remap please :< Bad idea. Very very bad idea. PLEX should only be a tool to add subscription time, nothing else!

lovely song
Posted - 2010.09.29 20:05:00 - [776]
 

+1

MataHarry
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.09.29 20:06:00 - [777]
 

+1

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.09.30 10:23:00 - [778]
 

Originally by: Rhok Relztem
I think this proposal is blowing this way out of proportion. I don't see any valid reason to be against plex for neural remapping except that it could open the door to a cash shop which I would most definitely be against. Besides that, this proposal has no merit imo.

NOT supported.


This is exactly my and many others concern.

Like some other poster said :

"This is microtransactions, opening Pandora's Box tbh"

SuiZida
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:12:00 - [779]
 


Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:37:00 - [780]
 

There are a few main things I've heard from the WTF CCP THIS IS BS side of the story, and I'll answer each of them here.

1. It's an unfair advantage to players with RL money.
Ever since PLEX, players with RL money can buy ISK, and ISK has always been an advantage in EvE. Implants, expensive ships / mods, you name it.
Moreover, this is hardly an advantage. If anything, it can compensate for your lack of planning / common sense (ie you didn't optimize your training and train skills that require one attribute for one year, then skills that require another for the next year).

2. It's a slippery slope.
The slippery slope argument is a fallacy.
You can't not want something on the basis that it might later lead to something else you don't want.
You would be right if you could prove that accepting this will have as a direct, unstoppable consequence the introduction of PLEX for SP. But you can't. There's nothing to show that it won't just be PLEX for remap and nothing else.

3. Microtransactions.
Originally by: CyberGh0st
The ability to remap with plex adds a form of wealth to the game ( a service that gives you more flexibility in gameplay ), this opposed to the current plex for gametime system where the wealth in the game is only redistributed between the players.

This is true.
Up to now, for every 15 dollars that CCP received, someone would get a month of gameplay, whereas with this, they will receive 15 dollars without giving a month of gameplay to someone in return.
In that sense it is a "micropayment".
That doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
You can't just brandish the word MICROPAYMENT as some Evil That Will Ruin EvE™.
There's nothing wrong with CCP selling other services than gametime, and they already do it. Character transfers, portrait changes, corp logo changes. But more importantly: alt accounts.

Selling an alt account is not selling gametime. You're not getting an extra month by buying an alt account, you're buying the ability to train double the skills during a month of gametime you already have. And there is virtually no difference b/e having perfect manufacturing AND sniper HAC skills on one char and having them on two different chars, except that having them on two different chars lets you move them / use them independently and simultaneously, which is handy.
In that sense, there already is something much much closer to PLEX for SP, and nobody seems to be too angry about it.


If there's anything I've missed, please tell me.


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