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Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.09.19 16:26:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Urgg Boolean on 19/09/2010 17:04:43
IMHO the implications are more broad than just game mechanics, bans, and ToS issues.

About 2 years ago, 7 of us (my circle of gaming friends) tried out the EvE free trial. Most of my chums are hard core PvPers and their immediate conclusion, based upon flaky front end code behavior, was that they COULD NOT TRUST the invisible back-end code. Needless to say, I am the only one if those 7 who started paying a sub.

The W6 exploit has allowed my chums to resurrect their EvE bashing with a resounding "I told you so", and they pat themselves on the back for avoiding "code they knew they could not trust".

My chums are well informed gamers, and I do not think they are living in a vacuum. I'm sure many more potential sub payers feel similarly. Let's face it, lag can easily be the difference between success and failure, so it is no stretch that poorly written back end code can eliminate any potentially spectacular personal effort, and lead to losses.

I cannot quantify loss of potential subs, based upon this line of reasoning, beyond that of my 6 friends who avoided EvE, and who now feel their reasoning has been cemented due to the W6 exploit/bug. I simply hope CCP makes an official statement soon, otherwise, potential sub payers may well cement their own views of how EvE's code and/or CCP cannot be trusted.

**Fixed some grammatical errors

branodn lee
Minmatar
kadian blades
Posted - 2010.09.20 12:18:00 - [62]
 

i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned)....

so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:06:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: branodn lee
i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned)....

so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player.


Hey..if anything at least we know where we stand on the subject.Find an exploit..have at it.And if you get busted..play stupid and your all good.Blame it on ccp.

Live and learn.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:15:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30
I expect the story of this exploit will go the way others like Ferrogel and T20 did.

We'll find out that the issue was reported months ago, CCP didn't take it seriously, and as we already know, people have gotten silly rich from it.

And we have a whistleblower who announced the flaw to the world, thus embarrassing CCP, especially as it has come out that it was reported months ago.

The next step will be the "shoot the messenger, ban as many people as we have to in order to look like we're in charge" phase which is how CCP always deals with these things.

Historically it's never been good to be a whistleblower in this game, especially when reporting Dev incompetence or corruption. CCP punishes these people instead of rewarding them. And it always seems to take months for someone to be bold enough to out the issue in public BEFORE any action is taken.

Of course if they'd read the damn bug reports TO BEGIN WITH or fix that long broken log server that has been "showing nothing" since 2003 such exploits might not make it into the game in the first place or get caught and resolved BEFORE people can make trillions of isk and distort markets for months.


Dan Kaneda
Kaneda's Evil Ninja Organization
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:25:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30 people have gotten silly rich from it.


please stop with this, I may not like very much AHARM and what they did, but a wormhole doesn't have infinite signatures/anoamlys. at best you get a few each days (3-4 anomalys, and that's not happening every day), and a organized basic fleet can take them down in 2 hours, less if you have a lot of pilots.

The said exploit didn't make them rich, it sure heleped, but they would have gotten iskies anyway. They can't create wealth ex nihilo.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:33:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 20/09/2010 14:34:41


This is easy.


The people debuffing their friends were not doing it to play a dirty trick on their friends.

The people fitting short ranged weapons and cycling them at over 150km, knew that it would hit the target.

The offending parties (the ones applying the debuff and the ones sniping with blasters), both were aware and admitted it publicly on their forums as well as submitted a petition to CCP.

Both parties are at fault. That easy.


Now, who should be banned?

Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff. The proper channels were followed by the offenders to have the bug fixed, bug was not fixed and remained in the game. If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players.

There are so many examples where bugs due to poor coding in this game have worked against the players. This example worked for the players. Treat the players who offended the same way CCP has treated us when they've made a mistake.


Go after people modifying the game or using third party bot programs.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:37:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players.
If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:41:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Dan Kaneda
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30 people have gotten silly rich from it.


please stop with this, I may not like very much AHARM and what they did, but a wormhole doesn't have infinite signatures/anoamlys. at best you get a few each days (3-4 anomalys, and that's not happening every day), and a organized basic fleet can take them down in 2 hours, less if you have a lot of pilots.

The said exploit didn't make them rich, it sure heleped, but they would have gotten iskies anyway. They can't create wealth ex nihilo.


They did make allot of isk..this was going on for months.Not only that..but you dont just find a wormhole and live happy ever after.People come in and out,and some will try and take that wormhole from you or drive you out.How many times have they used that exploit to defend it?who knows.This discussion is about opinions anyway.Nothing we say here will change ccp's actions.

I see it as cheating..and it disapoints me because I thought the one game I wouldnt see this in is eve.Another reason to think twice before risking something I worked long and hard forNeutral

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:41:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zagdul
If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players.
If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's.


It's CCP's fault for not more aggressively dealing with exploit reports, AND in monitoring their broken log server for logs that show nothing. Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms...

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue':

- He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way
- He doesn't have a choice
- He might not even be aware



Yes, the player has a choice. He can choose NOT to use that exploit and NOT shoot. And for not being aware ... hitting a target 200k away from you for always maximum damage with weapons that are effective only at 5k range, yeah, that is not really easy to overlook.


Originally by: Merdaneth

The person triggering the issue:

- Might not be aware that he is causing the issue
- Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay


Most unlikey that for example you ewar friends to HELP them by accident. That NEVER occurs in normal gameplay. It is a decision where you are fully aware of the effects and consequences. The only other time - besides this new incidenty - when you ewar your friends to help them is when you use the 'webbing trick' - and you know exactly what you are doing then too. So don't come with 'not being aware', that is just nonsense.


Originally by: Merdaneth

As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions:

1. It is a bug
2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players

Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself.


Is keeping my friends alive in a fleet battle not an advantage for my own also? Without my friends and gangmates I will certainly die but when they win the fight I will stay alive. So, if they stay alive it is an advantage for me. Of the exploit of this bug was a huge advantage to the exploiters.


Originally by: Merdaneth

CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players


I will be surprised if there will be any ban at all Embarassed
Even with the infamous ferrogel-exploit only very very few people got banned.

It is a shame that over and over again I have to read about bugs and hacks ('sphere' anyone?) first on third party forums because whenever someone tries to warn CCP here - because petitions or bug reports just didn't work in the past for that - those warnings will get more or less insta-nuked. I think the CSM needs to get more involved here, after all they have already signed an NDA and such.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:49:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms...
…with the players, who should understand that they're exploiting a bug — making them cheaters.

It makes somewhere between none and zero difference how incompetent CCP are in fixing the problem. The culpability of the players remains exactly the same: they chose to exploit the bug; they chose to cheat; they are the ones responsible for their own actions.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:53:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
It's CCP's fault for not more aggressively dealing with exploit reports, AND in monitoring their broken log server for logs that show nothing. Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms...



You ever hear the saying..two wrongs dont make a right?

While ccp has a whole crap load of work keeping this game together...all the player had to do is make it clear exactly what is going on.Im sure ccp would have reacted otherwise.Beside the fact that we still have no proof that they even reported it..and what they really said.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:56:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users.

This isn't a court of law, and there is no burden of proof in this context. The only relevant question is how much damage this incident is causing to the reputations of CCP and Eve, and how much damage they would incur by banning any given account, both in terms of reputation and in terms of that account's subscription fees. Realistically, they won't sustain any meaningful reputation damage by banning anyone who can reasonably be linked to the exploit, which is to say, anyone in the corp in question.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.09.20 14:59:00 - [74]
 

Well this is a great opportunity for CCP get rid of some of those surplus PLEXs. Give exploiters the choice of buying a PLEX(per exploiter) and CCP will ignore the exploit petitions about the issue for a week longer. Or alternatively stop exploiting, buy a twelve pack of PLEXs and CCP will ignore you when the banhammer time comes. This is truly an opportunity too good to ignore.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:01:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zagdul
If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players.
If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's.
Relax on your crusade... You're allowed to have an opinion on this... as am I. Don't try to disprove my opinion. You'll be running in circles.

I never said they shouldn't be punished.

K'racker
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:10:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: branodn lee
i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned)....

so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player.


don't underestimate ccp's sensitivity to bad publicity. the link that was deleted, to a popular gaming site, may spur them to action. to leave such a situation live on TQ, their server code generating bad maths, also gives the appearance of ineptitude.

as to punishment, only ccp know if the bug was petitioned, several times as the offending corp's ceo claims. regardless, given site respawn times, little, if any, extra isk was made. the current action against their home system is the first large invasion. the attackers wised up immediately, uncovered the method, and reported it. again, no real advantage gained.

some posters have called for bans, removing isk, or more extreme measures like sealing them in the wormhole forever.. Laughing to myself, it's just another in the long line of :chuckle at ccp, shake head, move on...

expecting it will be fixed; hotpatched with the standard terse, single-sentence explanation, or a footnote at the bottom of the next patch notes.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:11:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2010 15:13:21
Originally by: Zagdul
I never said they shouldn't be punished.
Right… you only implied it by saying that “Now, who should be banned? Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff.” and you argued for this on the basis that it was CCP's fault that these players cheated because they were letting the bug exist.

…a bug the players knew about.
…a bug the players exploited.

So what do you feel is the right punishment for these cheaters?

Jana Tanaka
Caldari
Tanaka Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:24:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Jana Tanaka on 20/09/2010 15:40:22
This issue has been made public and is well documented on at least one major MMO site and certain alternative EVE-Forum.

CCP cannot simply ignore this one and I certainly hope they wont do so.
If the issue is not dealt with in a proper manner,
then they will open up room for wildest speculations that are out of their control.

Properly dealing with this issue includes
informing the playerbase about the subject,
evaluating the damage done and detailing if actions were taken against these exploiters or if not why.

Right now I personally wonder why I even bother trying to play the game without exploits.
The POS issue, the PI disaster, the officer spawn frenzy in a certain alliance systems, plus some other events that I cannot even remember and
now the WH mess, ...

On the one hand marketing a HTFU harsh and punishing universe,
while cuddling exploiters, certainly does not compute,
unless ..., but that is certainly not the message CCP wants to communicate.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:29:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

Obviously this is not easy and straightforward exercise. In this case I consider it very likely that most people involved would know about the bug. Most is not all though. You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users. Just because in all likelihood 90% of those that experienced the issue are guilty, doesn't mean one can safely ban 100% and just say 'tough' to the 10% that aren't guilty.



Yeah, they really can - and perhaps should. If I let some dude in my fleet that I know is exploiting (and they did know), then I should either bug report him or petition him (both, preferably). They didn't.

Frankly, I'd settle for a hot fix, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash at CCP banning the entire corp.

-Liang

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.20 15:33:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2010 15:13:21
Originally by: Zagdul
I never said they shouldn't be punished.
Right… you only implied it by saying that “Now, who should be banned? Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff.” and you argued for this on the basis that it was CCP's fault that these players cheated because they were letting the bug exist.

…a bug the players knew about.
…a bug the players exploited.

So what do you feel is the right punishment for these cheaters?
They should all have negative wallets, by quite a bit.

If the logs show that the pilot was using this exploit during ratting. The ratting resulted in quite a bit of loot which was turned into things they sold on the market. Considering this was done in a C6, take the math of time logged in vs. extimated isk generated.

Then let the players decide if they still wanna play :).


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.20 16:04:00 - [81]
 

Quote:
It also generates publicity and draws more players to the game

Lawl you are kidding, right? You seriously think that you get more people in a game when the publicity it receives is about cheats and exploits? The only people you get due to that are, surpringly, cheaters.

No one in their right mind can claim that this isnt flat out abbusing exploits, which is cheating. So they all deserve a perma ban.

The alternative is also giving the message that until you get warned about it you may use exploits and hacks. I assume those who say they couldnt know it is an exploit also think people couldnt know that blocking certain packages to the local chat server thingie is an exploit, or creating ferrogel from nothing.

And getting permission from a GM is not exactly hard to do. It is known that you can easily get a GM to sanction mass joining a corp that started a wardec (which isnt allowed) by carefully asking it. So if they just made a petition if it is allowed to use TDs on friendlies in a class 6 magnetar even a competent GM would have answered yes.
And even if it was properly worded, everyone with more than 2 active brain cells can realise this is an exploit.

Jenson Savage
Caldari
Enlightened Incorporated
Posted - 2010.09.20 17:36:00 - [82]
 

Funny how there's been no new news announcements about it (and CCP took down the only news post that they'd made).

CCP?

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.09.20 18:14:00 - [83]
 

Of all the thread on this topic how is that this is piece of crap is one CCP allowed to remain?

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.20 18:16:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Merdaneth
You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users.

This isn't a court of law, and there is no burden of proof in this context. The only relevant question is how much damage this incident is causing to the reputations of CCP and Eve, and how much damage they would incur by banning any given account, both in terms of reputation and in terms of that account's subscription fees. Realistically, they won't sustain any meaningful reputation damage by banning anyone who can reasonably be linked to the exploit, which is to say, anyone in the corp in question.


CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit. Unjustly banned customers will generate a lot of negative publicity.

Realistically, what would the odds be of most players in the corp in question:

- being aware of said 'issue'
- being aware that is was an exploit
- using it to their advantage
- nobody with the knowledge of using the exploit ever getting kicked from corp over that period of 6 months and or telling another about it? Nobody breaking rank with everyone aware for such a long time?
- there not being a single spy in the corp that learned the secret and passed it on or petitioned it?

I mean, if you really have an exploit that is giving you quite an advantage, you'll either take measures to reduce the odds of it being discovered by others, which would certainly include not freely sharing it with others, or you do share it freely with others because you don't really believe it is an exploit (for whatever reason, like your CEO telling you he has a mail from a GM it is perfectly fine).

Which leads me to believe that heads of directors etc. will most certainly roll, but not those of most of the AHARM peasants, even if some of them used and/or benefited from the exploit.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.20 20:55:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Jenson Savage
Funny how there's been no new news announcements about it (and CCP took down the only news post that they'd made).

CCP?
This is because CCP has to accept some blame in this. It's also why I'm against banning these players.

Allow the R&K vs. AHARM fight to happen. We're all aware of this "mechanic". R&K have said multiple times they look at this as a challenge to overcome. They want AHARM to use it.

Now, AHARM was told (by their own admission) that this was an exploit, yet they continued to use it. They admittedly used it for ratting and now against player targets.

I'm not as upset that they used this for pvp as much as I am that they used it to farm C6 sleepers. This is far more of an offense in my opinion.


JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.09.21 00:05:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: JC Anderson on 21/09/2010 00:16:30
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:30:25
_

[sarcasm mode toggled to super-heavy-duty]

Originally by: Omega Flames
Link to the warning?

Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd TOTALLY respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>".

So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked.

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics?


Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not.
Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not.
Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either.

Oh, yeah, and the EULA//TOS totally don't have any mentions whatsoever of players being obligated to report any things that could be exploitable bugs with the implied conclusion that failing to do so while using them is punishable.

Originally by: Astarte Efga'ir
This is not the first time that a small group of players who discovered an exploit and reported it to CCP, never got an answer or were even told it was working as intended. What worries me is that a Senior GM (alledgedly) knew about this issue for a long time and yet told the discoverers it was ok to use it. That is: untill word got out. Then suddenly it is not working as intended anymore,.. but deemed an exploit. So as long as you keep it a secret, it's ok to use it? CCP Fail bigtime.. again.


Yup, because some GM failed to do his job properly, it's also totally and fully CCP's fault and obviously not the player's fault in any way, shape or form... and if one inexperienced GM doesn't understand what you're saying, that's TOTALLY a "carte blanche" to exploit umm abuse err utilize this wonderful unexpected feature to your heart's content, and if CCP later realizes what's going on they totally should not even slap your wrist for doing it... RIGHT ?

Totally.
I mean, like, duuh.
Duuuuude, totally !

[/sarcasm mode]



Dont forget that it wasn't working with grouped weapons.

Obviously though, all of these people triggering their weapon hard points one at a time were just doing so because weapon grouping is just so noob'ish.

Rolling Eyes

As a side note for people asking for links to the warnings and details and this and that.... They exist but the links just can't be posted here on these forums. Over the past two days they have appeared in various threads but violated CCP's forum rules and were removed.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.09.21 05:07:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit.


Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc)

If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned.

I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something?

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.09.21 05:30:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: JC Anderson on 21/09/2010 05:31:23
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Merdaneth
CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit.


Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc)

If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned.

I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something?


Another example to consider would be one that also relates to bugs in software.

Microsoft screws up in OS design and this leads to a back door that would allow hackers to bypass software security components.

Would one assume that the hacker is doing nothing wrong simply because the bug exists and Microsoft hasn't fixed it?

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2010.09.21 06:59:00 - [89]
 

Sophistry can't save you. Let's see the banbammer hit on the heads who have earned alots from the bug!

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.21 17:29:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Merdaneth
CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit.


Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc)

If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned.


If the mall security guard told you it was ok to take an item from the mall for a 50% reduction in cost, then I would expect some people to actually believe him, yes. I would check again with the manager, but hardly all people do. Oh, and if you want to use comparisons, I love em, do try to get your variables right. The mall guard and bank are unrelated, CCP GMs and CCP obviously aren't.

Here is another for you: the mall guard says you can only take something for free if you friend pays for another item. In fact, if your friend pays, then a free item will drop automatically in your cart, and your only way to stop this is to leave the mall immediately without buying anything. Of course, later the the manager shows up to tell you that the item isn't actually free, the mall guard made a mistake, and the (supposedly free) item dropping into your cart was caused by a malfunction in the restocking system. He tells you that you stole the item from the mall and you should have realized that nothing in this world is for free (duh). He tells you that during the malfunction in the mall you should stay far away from friends that cause the restocking system to malfunction and that not doing so will earn you a prison sentence.

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I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something?


Of course. This is true in the real world as well. The largest reason for innocent people to go to jail is overzealos prosecutors willing to compromise their procedures and 'get someone convicted' to appease the justly angry public.

All those in the leadership and those privy to the exploit and the petitions should have known better. In fact, omitting the worst bug from the first petition shows bad faith as far as I'm concerned. The bug however should be trivial to solve, and it is sad that it took so long (and needed an escalation of this kind) to get the attention it deserves.

Some of the bugs I reported got handled excellently, but I have a bug with very serious abuse potential waiting to get answered in the list right now. Weeks have gone past without it being adressed. I'm certainly not so stupid to ask a GM for permission to use it. When it looks like a bug and sounds like a bug it likely is a bug, and getting any advantage of it would be exploiting.

However, I wouldn't need a partner to do it, but that bug could certainly arise due to valid gameplay (taking advantage without intentending to do so), in fact, that is how I found the bug in the first place. Just going about my business not intending to get any special advantage.

Similarly, I think not all occurences of 'the issue' are necessarily also exploits when it concerns the current bug. I also think that not all players in association with the exploiters can be automatically considered exploiters too.



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