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Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:47:00 - [1]
 

I find the current exploit issue interesting because of the rules implications. Why? Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue':

- He doesn't have to be willing
- He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way
- He doesn't have a choice
- He might not even be aware

The person triggering the issue:

- Might not be aware that he is causing the issue
- Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay
- Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage)

As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions:

1. It is a bug
2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players

Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself. The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though. Especially in a game rife with spies, betrayals and all forms of scams and metagame-play a clever player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer.

Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players.

PS: Please do not go into any detail concerning this issue other than what CCP has already mentioned. Please keep within the TOS. I know, I haven't spoken to any player who isn't yet aware of this issue, but the rules are the rules.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:49:00 - [2]
 

Why not just set negative radians to = 0


problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread.

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:50:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: JC Anderson on 18/09/2010 19:56:36

Sadly, there are some "posts" elsewhere from early this year where one of the people involved (I'm trying to stay within the TOS here and not name names) admitted that they were in fact told it was an exploit by CCP not long after the initial petition said otherwise. They further explained that they stopped using said "exploit" again until the most recent "situation" where all of this came to light. The claim was that they were worried that the other party involved might know of it and use it against them, so they decided it was ok to use it again to their benefit as well.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Why not just set negative radians to = 0


problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread.


Hope so. At least nobody can complain about it anymore if that is the case. ;)

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:55:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Why not just set negative radians to = 0


problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread.


I'm sure something more or less like this will be the answer. The problem, as OP put it, is the banning of players that used this before it was fixed. Personally, while under specific circumstances, this could "accidentally" be used, I think the odds are pretty frakin low that it has ever been an accident. Certainly not in the case presented on other forums.

While those people could argue that they were unaware, that it was an accident, etc. at the end of the day CCP is not a democracy and doesn't have to hold a fair trial on the issue. If they feel those people were abusing a bug they can ban them without wasting the time to hear their side if they wish.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:56:00 - [5]
 

better would be to cap negative effects from ewar to 99.99% imo.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:57:00 - [6]
 

People, remember the rules. Please do not go into any details about this issue. I am interested in the rules implications.

Who is the exploiter in a case like this. The one triggering the issue, or the one receiving the advantage? Both? What if the target was unwilling or unaware? etc.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.18 19:59:00 - [7]
 

How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:03:00 - [8]
 

If need be, CCP can rely on that clause in the EULA or TOS which states that they can ban you for whatever reason they want.

Ais Hellia
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:08:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Ais Hellia on 18/09/2010 20:08:50
Originally by: Merdaneth

Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players.



if the words about submitted petitions and the bug reports and the answers to them are true, the only people who deserve to feel the "banhammer" are ignorant CCP employees that were to deal with the issue

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system.


I believe that CCP is fairly scrupulous when it comes to banning. They don't ban you just like that. 'You must have been on the same TS/Vent and must have realized it!' that is not evidence. If CCP considered that kind of thing evidence enough to justify banning, I'm sure we would see a lot more macro users getting banned.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:17:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Lance Fighter
How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system.


I believe that CCP is fairly scrupulous when it comes to banning. They don't ban you just like that. 'You must have been on the same TS/Vent and must have realized it!' that is not evidence. If CCP considered that kind of thing evidence enough to justify banning, I'm sure we would see a lot more macro users getting banned.

well yes, id agree - but in this case I would say anyone who was in the system and using it exploit, no matter if they were 'just' receiving the benefits of the exploit, or if they were actively engaging the exploit, should at the very least, have their wallets cleaned out. Id much prefer banned, but well, having a negative wallet in the billions can be far worse Laughing

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse
Originally by: Lance Fighter
better would be to cap negative effects from ewar to 99.99% imo.


with stacking penalties, the effects from anything are already capped to some extent. But with the fact that the spacial effects obviously don't stack with modules, meant that it was possible to get neg stats.

er

The problem has nothing to do with stacking penalties, im talking per module, not overall. The module shall never exceed a 99.99% debuff.

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Nicholas Barker
Originally by: Merdaneth

- Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay



Yeah, i always tracking disrupt my friends during fights.


Haven't you heard? It's a way to show appreciation between friends.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:25:00 - [14]
 

As I feared soome people can't stop themselves from posting specific details. As such I have asked to have my own thread locked.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:35:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
- He might not even be aware
Um, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that someone has fitted blasters, has set himself up to shoot from 150 km away, is hitting for full damage (all coincidental), and not realize that something is horribly wrong, or in this case, horribly right in their favor.

I guess if you JUST started playing (and CCP could easily verify this) it is possible you didn't know what you were doing. But like I said, it is incredibly hard to believe this is the case if you have been playing for a while.


Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:35:00 - [16]
 

The Captain busts in before the lock.


Happy "Talk Like a Pirate (exploiter) Day" LOL

Mr SmartGuy
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:51:00 - [17]
 

For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from LAG:

- He doesn't have to be willing
- He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way
- He doesn't have a choice
- He might not even be aware

The person triggering the issue:

- Might not be aware that he is causing the issue
- Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay
- Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage)

As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions:

1. It is a bug
2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players

... etc.
Neutral

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.09.18 22:53:00 - [18]
 

The OPs being a silly goober. And is making a non-point

If you understand the exploit its really easy to see that anyone using it to its full effect would be aware of whats happening because it requires a playstyyle that would make no sense otherwise.

CCP obviously isnt combing every log from the past year seeing if a random person here there might have unwittingly done this and not realized it.

Brannor McThife
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.09.18 22:55:00 - [19]
 

OP is an alt of one of the offenders and is trying to justify his cheating.

GTFO. Evil or Very Mad

-G

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2010.09.18 23:09:00 - [20]
 

If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic.

They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect.

Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.09.18 23:18:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Pohbis
If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic.

They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect.

Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...


chuckle, CCP only just got religion with modules cycling forever when you want them to stop.

Its tons simpler to banstick everyone than waste money looking in log files.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.09.18 23:22:00 - [22]
 

Whole fleets using this exploit can be nothing more than whole fleets knowingly using this exploit. The ban hammer should find its mark quite easily. However, if it's true that it was GM sanctioned, then noone is going to get banned.

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.09.19 01:15:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Whole fleets using this exploit can be nothing more than whole fleets knowingly using this exploit. The ban hammer should find its mark quite easily. However, if it's true that it was GM sanctioned, then noone is going to get banned.


Doubt it was "sanctioned"

Instead I think it's more of something that fell through the cracks. Not worth trying to place blame on any party IMHO. In some ways I agree with some of the things the OP has said. Just not all of what he said.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.19 01:33:00 - [24]
 

OP you are just a troll coming here and trying to say that it creates no advantage.

And also a total asshat.

QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.09.19 02:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: QT McWhiskers on 19/09/2010 02:01:52
Honestly, if they ban people for exploiting a glitch in the game, and not ban the dozens of repeat offenders in the dronelands, that would be pretty ****ed up. Ban people for finding and using a loophole in your coding, but not ban people using third party tools to cheat. /sarcasm

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.09.19 02:37:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Templar Dane on 19/09/2010 02:37:48
Originally by: Merdaneth
I find the current exploit issue interesting because of the rules implications. Why? Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue':

- He doesn't have to be willing
- He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way
- He doesn't have a choice
- He might not even be aware

The person triggering the issue:

- Might not be aware that he is causing the issue
- Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay
- Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage)

As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions:

1. It is a bug
2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players

Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself. The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though. Especially in a game rife with spies, betrayals and all forms of scams and metagame-play a clever player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer.

Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players.

PS: Please do not go into any detail concerning this issue other than what CCP has already mentioned. Please keep within the TOS. I know, I haven't spoken to any player who isn't yet aware of this issue, but the rules are the rules.


Why does this smell like a stealth cop out?

You don't accidentally daisy chain [censored] onto your fellow gangmates with [censored] and [censored] fitted and [censored] from [censored] away.

OOPS, SORRY GAIS.

One big daisy chain of OOOPS with a dash of exploit and a pinch of fail.

branodn lee
Minmatar
kadian blades
Posted - 2010.09.19 03:21:00 - [27]
 

well i dont think anyone should be banned, i just think they need to be warned not to use it again and if they do then ban them.. also anyone know why the other post the link to the news deal was deleted by ccp. now the news deal talking about this is gone. i smell ccp cover up....

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.19 04:55:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 04:59:44
Originally by: Merdaneth
The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though.

Right. So if the vast majority of the fleet is fit in such a way to enable it and uses something that would otherwise not be used on friendlies...
...yeah, that's soooo haaaard to proooooove something fishy was going on and those involved knew about it.
ESPECIALLY after petitions asking about this exact situation came from some of them.
Originally by: branodn lee
well i dont think anyone should be banned, i just think they need to be warned not to use it again and if they do then ban them.

AFAIH, they were already warned not to use it.
They still used it, eventually, after a while of not using it at all (as warned).
Bans would be perfectly justified if that was indeed the case.

Omega Flames
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.09.19 05:01:00 - [29]
 

Link to the warning?

Guvante
Dreddit
Posted - 2010.09.19 05:47:00 - [30]
 

I am sorry, but there is no chance that someone received that kind of benefit without knowing.

That is like being given a $100 bill that is still part of a full 8.5x11 sheet of paper, taking it to the bank, and claiming that you had no clue.

I could see missing a minor DPS increase, but you know as well as I do what kind of benefits that exploit created.


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