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Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.14 21:57:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Feawin
Originally by: Tigobitty

To my knowledge a capacitor is capable of much faster recharge and discharge of high energy, whereas a battery is more for longer term storage of said energy. Even in just a frigate, the dynamic energy levels produced by module requirements are astounding, a Battery would have troubles coupling the reactor output to the load without running into thermal issues, or just flat out kersploding.



Confirms that what powers our ships are fusion, think I read that somewhere..
From now on I'm gonna assume that The Capacitor is just a huge bunch of capacitors available for discharge.
But then that doesn't sit right with the nonlinear recharge rates..

CCP, answer question plx.


I imagine the power source varies from race to race and ship to ship, though the obvious answer is actually an antimatter reactor, since that's got a higher energy produced/unit of fuel than fusion. The capacitor is the common point for all ships, since any given ship needs a way to store generated power for non-continuous uses, and forcing a battery into rapid charge/discharge would screw it up fast.

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.09.14 22:22:00 - [32]
 

I think the source was long ago confirmed to be "tears."

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:08:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Doddy on 14/09/2010 23:14:28
Originally by: Feawin
From my understanding, the difference between capacitors and batteries is that while a battery allows for a constant voltage during its discharge, the capacitor's voltage during (its rather short) discharge decrease exponentially.
So shouldn't the capacitor used on all ships in eve tehnically go under the definition of a battery?

Or am I talking gibberish?


The battery as a power source? or power store? the capacitor is a power store, they are entirely different things. The capacitor can provide more energy faster than a battery. You can if you so wish chose to belive the power source for your ships capacitor is lots of batteries if you want, but its far more likely it is energy from your ships engines that charges the capacitor, as unlike batteries it wont run out (seemingly none of the four different racial propulsion systems need fuel)Wink

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:13:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Thremill
i guess it would be safe to assume, that the ships run on fusion reactors, since fusion ammunition is readily available. But then again you know what they say about 'assume'


Well we have fusion bombs at the moment, doesn't mean we have fusion reactors, way way easier to make a fusion weapon than a safe reliable controllable power source or we would hav ethem already. I guess fusion amunition is essentially a tiny fusion warhead so are no more advcanced (except in minaturisation) than the hydrogen bomb.

Thea Arsoniztik
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:20:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Gunnanmon
Simple, they couldn't think of a good way to implement a power source, so they chose a capacitor. Quite what charges the capacitor up escapes me.


Capacitors in Eve are charged with tears.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
Originally by: Gunnanmon
Simple, they couldn't think of a good way to implement a power source, so they chose a capacitor. Quite what charges the capacitor up escapes me.



It's the Wilma that charges up the Fred! Laughing



Originally by: SkinSin


Erm.. isn't it the other way around... Wilma discharges Fred... ugh



Originally by: Rewind12
Edited by: Rewind12 on 14/09/2010 20:41:30
Originally by: Sig Sour
Edited by: Sig Sour on 14/09/2010 20:33:43
So why are the modules that expand your capacitor called "Capacitor Battery" and not "Capacitor Expander"?

Also you guys should buff the ****ing **** out of those mods so people use them.


The max load on a capacitor cannot be expanded without replacing it, batteries can be added to increase the overall circuit's max load. This or,

Because Fred has been expanded to the max by it's builders , and thus cannot be charged further by Barney. Said Barney however enjoys the longer charges and discharges of Fred, caused by Wilma, and thus created miniature Freds, allowing for a bigger charge, allowing for longer discharges.



Rewind 12 for the comment trifecta LaughingLaughingLaughing


Slade

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.09.15 01:11:00 - [37]
 

Capacitors are often used in conjunction with a power source.

You store charge on them, so you can get extra power when you need it. Presumably the ships of eve have a power source, which has the sole purpose of running the life support, propulsion, etc, then as available, it diverts energy to charging the capacitors, which have non-linear charging, essentially the more charge on it, the slower it is to charge. Then as extra power is needed, say to run a module, the capacitor has the power (current and voltage) to run it.

One major advantage of capacitors to batteries is mass and on a planet weight, at least in the lead-acid sense, although for equivalent power capacity, even rechargeable batteries have more mass per charge than capacitors. This weight a. Many model airplanes now use capacitors instead of batteries, as do some un-manned gliders.

Best,
Apollo

Xiaodown
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.09.15 01:31:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Obviously this is The Future™ so all tech is subject to arbitrary awesomeness, but from a usability/intuitiveness perspective, I think most people would associate "battery" with long-term storage and "capacitor" with short-term storage. With the way the EVE module system pumps charge in and out very rapidly, it makes more sense to more people to call the storage device a capacitor than a battery.


Could have just called it "Mana".

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.15 01:34:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Xiaodown

Could have just called it "Mana".

Blasphamy!

alittlebirdy
Posted - 2010.09.15 02:24:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Obviously this is The Future™ so all tech is subject to arbitrary awesomeness, but from a usability/intuitiveness perspective, I think most people would associate "battery" with long-term storage and "capacitor" with short-term storage. With the way the EVE module system pumps charge in and out very rapidly, it makes more sense to more people to call the storage device a capacitor than a battery.


Or you could point out a cap is in fact a battery, and seeing as this is the future, we can say we have better caps than now (as it would take a HUGE cap to hold a simple AA batteries charge) and... cap makes perfect sense... in fact a battery for how the cap works (while unstable) would be wrong… and the fact it is always recharging only makes it more like a cap, and less like a battery.

You could not fire any energy weapon without a cap.

daddys helper
Posted - 2010.09.15 03:31:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: daddys helper on 15/09/2010 03:35:17
also in RL we use caps not only as short term storage but as power conditioners
(short term is misleading, a capactor can hold a charge for years or till its discharged)

most electronics that plug into the wall actually run on DC (direct current) power and not the AC (alternating current) that comes out of the wall, so we run the AC (a wave that goes from a positive voltage to a negative voltage and then back again) through a bridge rectifier that converts the AC sine wave into a fairly flat constant (or DC) voltage. The caps come in after that to buffer out the ripples left in the DC to give a nice flat stable voltage. So in effect the cap uses its fast charge and discharge properties to absorb the left over ripples in the power.

caps are so much more then batteries
with caps you can turn 110 volts into 10,000 volts or more(voltage doubling)
and a charged cap from a radar set will effectively wake a room of sleeping engineering students when discharged with an insulated probe Wink

Daemonio
Posted - 2010.09.15 03:56:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Feawin
Edited by: Feawin on 14/09/2010 21:45:09
So, the Capacitor is actually a collection of capacitors, which makes it possible to discharge it partially and add more "capacity" in the form of "capacitor batteries" :)

I'm glad we worked that out. I've been pondering this question for several days now.. Now I can finally sleep. Yes, seriously.

EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Capacitors don't charge linearly, the charge faster at low charge and decrease in a nonlinear way as the capacitor gets full.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.09.15 04:57:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: alittlebirdy
Or you could point out a cap is in fact a battery, and seeing as this is the future, we can say we have better caps than now (as it would take a HUGE cap to hold a simple AA batteries charge)

Err ... A battery is not a capacitor. A battery relies on an electrochemical reaction to produce electrons. A capacitor simply collects electrons and is incapable of producing them.

Fun fact: you could power Las Vegas for a little over 51 minutes on a summer day for the same energy cost as it takes to run a 100mn mwd for ten seconds.

Gabriel DiCozza
Epsilon Lyr
Posted - 2010.09.15 09:36:00 - [44]
 

This is the future. Like in Philip José Farmer's Riverworld, there should be batacitors.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.09.15 10:18:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Because of science.

Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.15 11:19:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Rainus Max on 15/09/2010 11:32:43
A few years ago a Japanese firm (I think it was Japanese anyway) developed a slow charge releasing capacitor aimed for use in an electric car, was only in the research stages but they had managed it. Problem was it was difficult and expensive to produce for car-sized version. Main reason behind this move is capacitors are better at storing charge than batteries, the only down side to them is this discharge almost instantly, which sorta makes them rubbish storage devices.

Unfortunately as it was a few years ago I have no idea where I read the article. But some googlenerd will probably find it.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.15 11:30:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 15/09/2010 11:39:16
Originally by: Axemaster
Capacitors are used because they can output a very large amount of energy very quickly. They are charged up by batteries or the ship's reactor. Learn basic science people!


Originally by: Tigobitty

To my knowledge a capacitor is capable of much faster recharge and discharge of high energy, whereas a battery is more for longer term storage of said energy. Even in just a frigate, the dynamic energy levels produced by module requirements are astounding, a Battery would have troubles coupling the reactor output to the load without running into thermal issues, or just flat out kersploding.



These.

Capacitors can be charged and discharged very quickly.

Capacitor Battery = Battery as in a group or collection of related items and not a power storage cell using chemical potential energy.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.15 11:39:00 - [48]
 

One should understand the differences between a capacitor and battery before one openly discusses them.

A quick trip to wikipedia should alleviate any confusion.

Uncle Fester
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.09.15 11:51:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Because of Icelandic folk magic.


Fixed

Ay Liz
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.09.15 11:58:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:33:26
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:29:21
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:00:21
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Because of science.


But then, as far as i can see the game doesn't use the natural logarithm for the recharge of the capacitor. As capacitors recharge fastest at 0% in reality and not at 30%.
Explain your science please Laughing Yes i know, it's a fictional universe. But come one!
Edit: And by thinking about it, if you aren't displaying the current voltage of the capacitor but instead the energy stored then you would have to have a linear recharge. So Feawin might as well be correct.
What is the recharge rate based on? And what do you actually display with the percentage of the capacitor? Voltage would change based on the natural logarithm. Energy would change linear.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.15 12:31:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
One should understand the differences between a capacitor and battery before one openly discusses them.

A quick trip to wikipedia should alleviate any confusion.
Also, the difference between "battery" and "battery" (even though one derives its meaning form the other).

Fatmarrow
Minmatar
Vote Chino
Posted - 2010.09.15 12:40:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ay Liz
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:33:26
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:29:21
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:00:21
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Because of science.


But then, as far as i can see the game doesn't use the natural logarithm for the recharge of the capacitor. As capacitors recharge fastest at 0% in reality and not at 30%.



"In reality" you'd have various parasitic inductances, capacitances and resistances, conceivably overload prevention devices, and battery or power source output characteristics that could well result in a different shape of curve for the capacitor recharge.

But it's also because of Science.

My Postman
Posted - 2010.09.15 13:00:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: John Comer
its barney that charges up fred, wilma is discharging him


Very much this!

Barney = Cap Booster 800
Wilma = a heavy nos on you

X1994
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.15 13:21:00 - [54]
 

I'm far more interested in how exactly Energy Neutralizers are supposed to work. Shocked

Fatmarrow
Minmatar
Vote Chino
Posted - 2010.09.15 13:23:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: X1994
I'm far more interested in how exactly Energy Neutralizers are supposed to work. Shocked


Possibly a highly focussed stream of charged particles to cause dieletric breakdown in the capacitor?

X1994
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.15 13:29:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Fatmarrow
Originally by: X1994
I'm far more interested in how exactly Energy Neutralizers are supposed to work. Shocked


Possibly a highly focussed stream of charged particles to cause dieletric breakdown in the capacitor?


Let's just call it magic then.

Famble
Minmatar
Three's a Crowd
Posted - 2010.09.15 15:00:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Famble on 15/09/2010 15:01:26
Originally by: X1994
Originally by: Fatmarrow
Originally by: X1994
I'm far more interested in how exactly Energy Neutralizers are supposed to work. Shocked


Possibly a highly focussed stream of charged particles to cause dieletric breakdown in the capacitor?


Let's just call it magic then.


U.S. combat pilots if asked will explain that many of their complex avionics work as a result of "FM" technology.

Pilot: You lock up the target then wait while the IFF evaluates whether or not it's a friendly.

Noobie: How does the IFF system figure that out?

Pilot: FM


Fu**ing Magic.


In WoW terms, tough questions can always be answered as: Well, wizards did it.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.09.15 16:02:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Ay Liz
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:33:26
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:29:21
Edited by: Ay Liz on 15/09/2010 12:00:21
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?


Because of science.


But then, as far as i can see the game doesn't use the natural logarithm for the recharge of the capacitor. As capacitors recharge fastest at 0% in reality and not at 30%.
Explain your science please Laughing Yes i know, it's a fictional universe. But come one!
Edit: And by thinking about it, if you aren't displaying the current voltage of the capacitor but instead the energy stored then you would have to have a linear recharge. So Feawin might as well be correct.
What is the recharge rate based on? And what do you actually display with the percentage of the capacitor? Voltage would change based on the natural logarithm. Energy would change linear.


Because of future science.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.09.15 17:00:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ay Liz
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feawin
EDIT: No dammit, then why does it recharge nonlinearly?

Because of science.

But then, as far as i can see the game doesn't use the natural logarithm for the recharge of the capacitor. As capacitors recharge fastest at 0% in reality and not at 30%.
Explain your science please Laughing Yes i know, it's a fictional universe. But come one!
Edit: And by thinking about it, if you aren't displaying the current voltage of the capacitor but instead the energy stored then you would have to have a linear recharge. So Feawin might as well be correct.
What is the recharge rate based on? And what do you actually display with the percentage of the capacitor? Voltage would change based on the natural logarithm. Energy would change linear.

Because of future science.

Ya know.. charging a capacitor with a constant current will cause it to be filled linearly with electrons? YARRRR!!

Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
Posted - 2010.09.15 17:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Feawin
...snip RL comparisons



This is game



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