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Dred Control
Posted - 2010.09.10 21:49:00 - [1]
 

I am indeed a PvP nooblet, but from the little experience I do have, it seems like PvP in Eve mostly involves camping gates and stations and fighting said camps.

I know in theory it can happen anywhere, but the vast majority of encounters seem to occur around gates.

Now the problem I have with this is that PvP becomes like spawn camping in a shooter. All the incoming targets are clustered in one small area, and the camper always has the advantage (unless of course those incoming to the camp greatly outnumber or outgun the campers). This seems to make PvP rather limited in terms of where it tends to occur. It is usually just a great big clusterf*** around a gate or station.

Possible exceptions...

-POS fights
-mission / plex / exploration sites
-belt hopping
-cyno beacons
-warp bubbles away from gates (not very common)

I am hoping future features like planetary attacks will make non-gate fights more common.

Bond69
Posted - 2010.09.10 21:59:00 - [2]
 

Fights around gates happen cuz its easy tofind enemy there... they have to go through and its easier to wait for them there rather than hunt all over the systems.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:07:00 - [3]
 

I'm sorry to tell you that half of all combat is camping, even in real life.

"You guys wait here and don't let anyone take this hill"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone destroy this bridge"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone blow up our ammo depot"
"You guys wait here and kill everyone that comes through"

"You guys go over there and take that hill"
"You guys go over there and destroy that bridge"
"You guys go over there and blow up that ammo"
"You guys go through there and try not to get dead"

See how that works?

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.

Dred Control
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
I'm sorry to tell you that half of all combat is camping, even in real life.

"You guys wait here and don't let anyone take this hill"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone destroy this bridge"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone blow up our ammo depot"
"You guys wait here and kill everyone that comes through"

"You guys go over there and take that hill"
"You guys go over there and destroy that bridge"
"You guys go over there and blow up that ammo"
"You guys go through there and try not to get dead"

See how that works?

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.


Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates. The equivalent would be like if the only way to get into Iraq was through one highway from Kuwait that you couldn't go off of. Then the insurgents would spam all their IEDs onto that one road all the time and GG. In reality, there are many ways to travel into and out of locations in RL, whereas in Eve it is gates only (with the exception of cynos and jump bridges when they are available).

Attacking and defending things...that's different. I actually wish there were more reasons for smallish fights to occur in Eve around small defensible structures other than POSes. As you state, fights in RL wars/battles occur around important objectives, like bridges, ammo dumps, etc. Whereas in Eve, it is mostly battles that somewhat correspond to ancient armies battling at a mountain pass, which is okay if you like that kind of thing. But it would be nice if there was a bit more variety.

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:26:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dred Control
Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates.


Are you really debating the 'realness' of EVE combat?

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:38:00 - [6]
 

eh lets face it - people like defending someplace where they can defend it efficiently.

For example, when playing virtually any rts, if I can locate a corridor of expansion that has choke points in it, I can advance and do fairly well on that map.

If its a wide open map, I really fking suck at it.


Sovox
Amarr
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:42:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sovox on 10/09/2010 23:03:54

Yes cause it is the most accessible type of game play to get into.
Always a few exceptions but for the most part you have two main types of PVP imo.

#1 you have the uber leet PVP crowd which is basically requires a bubble or some type of tackle(for low sec) and a gate and the standard of being a noob ganker just camping a gate and the uber PVPer is about how many different type of gate games and tricks you can play to kill people who don't read intel channels or don't have any and for the ultra leet they use a drag bubble or bait a few guys while having a small gang waiting either on other side of gateNeutral

#2 Roams and Fleet PVP they are kinda the same except fleet ops generally have a goal in a system like Sov/Station grabs or defense and roams are generally just wondering and just ganking whatever unlucky fool that gets in your way or an enemy puts together a counter fleet or gang and you have a fight and imo that is some of the best stuff when you actually find that. the fleet ops can be fun as well if its not just shooting crap with millions of HPs which is part of it i guess.For the most this is the option that can turn a whole system into a battle ground depending on cloaky scouts scanning enemy locations and then warping the gang or fleet to them.

The main reason why the gate ganking seems to be a major part of EVE is generally for the roams and fleet ops you need a fleet composition and that requires a bit of an effort to put together, while the gate ganks only require a few people and a bubble or some type of tackle, and so its something anyone can really do at any time and for ever how long they want to do it, so its a fast easy way to get some cheap kicks out of EVE. Not one of the things i would spend my game time on though but i understand for others its the best kind or only PVP avail for them to do.

Namira Sable
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:45:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dred Control

Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates.
You might want to open up a history book.

Khen'do Khen
Posted - 2010.09.10 22:51:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dred Control
Originally by: Mr Kidd
I'm sorry to tell you that half of all combat is camping, even in real life.

"You guys wait here and don't let anyone take this hill"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone destroy this bridge"
"You guys wait here and don't let anyone blow up our ammo depot"
"You guys wait here and kill everyone that comes through"

"You guys go over there and take that hill"
"You guys go over there and destroy that bridge"
"You guys go over there and blow up that ammo"
"You guys go through there and try not to get dead"

See how that works?

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.


Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates. The equivalent would be like if the only way to get into Iraq was through one highway from Kuwait that you couldn't go off of. Then the insurgents would spam all their IEDs onto that one road all the time and GG. In reality, there are many ways to travel into and out of locations in RL, whereas in Eve it is gates only (with the exception of cynos and jump bridges when they are available).

Attacking and defending things...that's different. I actually wish there were more reasons for smallish fights to occur in Eve around small defensible structures other than POSes. As you state, fights in RL wars/battles occur around important objectives, like bridges, ammo dumps, etc. Whereas in Eve, it is mostly battles that somewhat correspond to ancient armies battling at a mountain pass, which is okay if you like that kind of thing. But it would be nice if there was a bit more variety.


Well, most battlefields do have chokepoints. You can't compare the whole of Iraq to one battlefield. There are battles fought in Iraq that compromise a war. A battlefield in Iraq would be like Fallujah. It's a town, with buildings in it you know. Hence, chokepoints. You need to look battles and not the entire country the battles were fought in. Even back in the day armies knew what chokepoints were. You're pretty hard pressed to find battlefields that don't have chokepoints. It's called strategy, and most semi-intelligent commanders have used chokepoints since the dawn of war. Hell, even predatory animals use them to catch prey.

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.09.10 23:09:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
For example, when playing virtually any rts, if I can locate a corridor of expansion that has choke points in it, I can advance and do fairly well on that map.

If its a wide open map, I really fking suck at it.

This. I can raep your ass on Seton's Clutch and whatever that new 4v4 map is, but I suck on almost all the rest... Cool

Indimiel
Posted - 2010.09.10 23:25:00 - [11]
 

I don't agree with Gates being the one true way to fight.

I really enjoy the pace of Eve pvp. A lot of it is finding targets, catching them in the right place at the right time. It's like hunting without getting muck in your boots, as opposed to the Duck-Hunter-on-fast-forward approach most games take to pvp. My favourite way to fight is to belt cruising with a couple of great wingmen in low-sec or wartargets' homeland, you can end up going for hours without the shooting, or getting locked in running skirmishes with the likes of The Dread Pirate Naxias, in any case it's a rush when you actually get to engage, as opposed to the flyswatting clickfest gate camping can become.

As far as overall popularity in the game, I would say, Eve being what it is, the market is the #1 way people pvp. In either case what does it matter how the majority do it if you can find a way of doing it the way *you* enjoy it?

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.09.10 23:54:00 - [12]
 

You fight at:

- Gates because people 'warp' to them (Hopefully you have bubbles to 'draw' them to you in 0.0).
- celestial objects because people 'warp' to them
- missions, plexes and anomalies because people 'warp' to them
- outside player owner structures because people warp to them
- stations because, OMG really, do I need to say it again?
- safe spots are usually 'ganks' and usually no real pvp takes place here

Sure, some people 'camp' gates, but this is usually as they are 'expecting' traffic like stragglers or unscouted people.

Sometimes combat involves locating kick out stations in low sec, then keeping a neutral alt in the system. Wait for a cyno-kessy to arrive and LOG EVERYONE IN lol.

Roams are the best way to get a fight though. F10 to open the map, look for red blobs on the map. Go in that direction with some buddies and don't worry too much if you lose your ship. They are easily replaced and you are getting some heart pumping pvp action.

You MUST pvp with at least 2 FCs. If they are any good, your enemy already know their names ;-)

Flying without an FC = no fun.

Oh and expect:

- one spy per 50 people in a fleet
- to die on jumping into a system with more than 300 people in it due to factors outside your control
- to learn a lot about how to 'really' fit your ship (Pass / buffer > Active tank)
- to find some characters in this game that are going to make the experience 100% more fun
- to close your eyes after a couple of hours fighting and still see laz0rs and missiles flying across your eyeballs.

lol

Can't stand the PVE side of EVE, its so lame after a decent fight with humans.

I hope it changes you and inspires you to inspire others to join you.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:01:00 - [13]
 

PvP in eve is weird.

-It relies on bringing more gang members
-It is nearly impossible to start a mutual consent PvP
-PvP happens in short range, within short time frame

looking for PvP may take hours on end, as it has very negative consequences for the victim
PvP is not means of reward. PvP fitted vessels have minimal price, which is partially compensated to the victim.

Bounty hunting system does not work.

Half of the time people are not prepared for PvP. People tend to avoid it. Solo PvP is difficult, winning vs the odds is impossible.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Stick Cult
Originally by: Lance Fighter
For example, when playing virtually any rts, if I can locate a corridor of expansion that has choke points in it, I can advance and do fairly well on that map.

If its a wide open map, I really fking suck at it.

This. I can raep your ass on Seton's Clutch and whatever that new 4v4 map is, but I suck on almost all the rest... Cool

setons clutch isnt even chokepointy.. just land chokepointy. I prefer water anyway >.>

oddly though, im actually not bad when it comes to sea control...

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:04:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Stick Cult on 11/09/2010 00:05:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Stick Cult
Originally by: Lance Fighter
For example, when playing virtually any rts, if I can locate a corridor of expansion that has choke points in it, I can advance and do fairly well on that map.

If its a wide open map, I really fking suck at it.

This. I can raep your ass on Seton's Clutch and whatever that new 4v4 map is, but I suck on almost all the rest... Cool

setons clutch isnt even chokepointy.. just land chokepointy. I prefer water anyway >.>

oddly though, im actually not bad when it comes to sea control...

I prefer air anyway... Laughing But it's easy to control the land, and any navy is dealt with by my air anyway. Also, magnets. Lots of magnets.

wait.. you can't do things without land choke points, but on water (with no possibility of a chokepoint) you're good? Laughing

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:04:00 - [16]
 

Quote:

Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates. The equivalent would be like if the only way to get into Iraq was through one highway from Kuwait that you couldn't go off of. Then the insurgents would spam all their IEDs onto that one road all the time and GG. In reality, there are many ways to travel into and out of locations in RL, whereas in Eve it is gates only (with the exception of cynos and jump bridges when they are available).

Attacking and defending things...that's different. I actually wish there were more reasons for smallish fights to occur in Eve around small defensible structures other than POSes. As you state, fights in RL wars/battles occur around important objectives, like bridges, ammo dumps, etc. Whereas in Eve, it is mostly battles that somewhat correspond to ancient armies battling at a mountain pass, which is okay if you like that kind of thing. But it would be nice if there was a bit more variety.


PvP in EvE is crap. MMO and General Audience is good though. Mature, adult, educated.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:22:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Stick Cult
Edited by: Stick Cult on 11/09/2010 00:05:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Stick Cult
Originally by: Lance Fighter
For example, when playing virtually any rts, if I can locate a corridor of expansion that has choke points in it, I can advance and do fairly well on that map.

If its a wide open map, I really fking suck at it.

This. I can raep your ass on Seton's Clutch and whatever that new 4v4 map is, but I suck on almost all the rest... Cool

setons clutch isnt even chokepointy.. just land chokepointy. I prefer water anyway >.>

oddly though, im actually not bad when it comes to sea control...

I prefer air anyway... Laughing But it's easy to control the land, and any navy is dealt with by my air anyway. Also, magnets. Lots of magnets.

wait.. you can't do things without land choke points, but on water (with no possibility of a chokepoint) you're good? Laughing
.... yeah? >.>

I cant really comment on pvp in supcom, but in spring (remade TA engine), the NOTA mod includes enough AA guns on ships that it takes effort for air to be done right..
Although I will say that amphibious destroyers is the best innovation since sliced bread.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.09.11 00:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dred Control
I am indeed a PvP nooblet, but from the little experience I do have, it seems like PvP in Eve mostly involves camping gates and stations and fighting said camps.

I know in theory it can happen anywhere, but the vast majority of encounters seem to occur around gates.

Now the problem I have with this is that PvP becomes like spawn camping in a shooter. All the incoming targets are clustered in one small area, and the camper always has the advantage (unless of course those incoming to the camp greatly outnumber or outgun the campers). This seems to make PvP rather limited in terms of where it tends to occur. It is usually just a great big clusterf*** around a gate or station.

Possible exceptions...

-POS fights
-mission / plex / exploration sites
-belt hopping
-cyno beacons
-warp bubbles away from gates (not very common)

I am hoping future features like planetary attacks will make non-gate fights more common.



1) don't bring a knife to a gunfight;
2) "fairness" and "war" don't match. pick only one.


these 2 very simple statements mean that when a "fair fight" happens, someone ****ed up real bad.

one must take advantage of every opportunity that is presented to you, be it provided by the enemy (remember, victory depends of the enemy's mistakes, not of your well-thought out plans), or by the terrain.

remember, what wins wars is tactics and strategy, not a fair duel between 2 men at 20 paces in O.K. corral at sundown, or honourable behaviour.


and all that dirty fighting and facing overwhelming odds and come out on top because of wit (and, probably, a friend with a cyno-gen and a cap fleet waiting for a hot dropRazz) is what makes it so interesting.


Crimsonjade
Posted - 2010.09.11 01:04:00 - [19]
 

Only pvp in eve is on the forums sillyLaughing

sabre906
Posted - 2010.09.11 01:49:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Crimsonjade
Only pvp in eve is on the forums sillyLaughing


Confirmed. Outside of Alliance Tournament, there is no pvp in game. There are lots of blobing though, not to be confused with pvp.

Once in a while someone would suggest Arena (aka alliance tournament style fights accessible by mainstream players), but it always get shot down by a few vocal blobbers and their alts.

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2010.09.11 01:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.


Well, the "Smart" gameplay is arguably boring, as it just means people don't fight unless they have a bigger blob.

There should be some reason to split a combat front, instead of just having everyone engage at the same place at the same time.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.09.11 01:52:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Mr Kidd

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.


Well, the "Smart" gameplay is arguably boring, as it just means people don't fight unless they have a bigger blob.

There should be some reason to split a combat front, instead of just having everyone engage at the same place at the same time.


well thing is, fighting a common threat by using safety in numbers is the smartest thing to do.

look at how wolves hunt in the wilderness, and even the prehistoric humans did it.

it's just in our blood. we look for safety in numbers.



plus you have to add to the fact that blobs happen not because of the sake of blobbing but because everyone and their dog wants to be in the killmail.

MeestaPenni
Gallente
Mercantile and Stuff
Posted - 2010.09.11 02:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Dred Control
Real battlefields and geographic locations mostly do not have the kinds of artificial choke points created by gates.


Are you really debating the 'realness' of EVE combat?


I guess someone has to.

Crimsonjade
Posted - 2010.09.11 02:45:00 - [24]
 

The best pvp. And this is no joke, is normally found in high sec . Of all the wars I have fought in the last 7 years of eve. Small wars for fun is where it's atYARRRR!!

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.09.11 02:55:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 11/09/2010 03:05:39
Originally by: Grimpak
look at how wolves hunt in the wilderness, and even the prehistoric humans did it.

it's just in our blood. we look for safety in numbers.


At the risk of turning this into a dog thread, i'm going to point out how they're poorly equipped for solo work. Their sole method of attack is to lock their jaw on something and thrash back and forth, which leaves them very vulnerable. If a lone pitbull or something is ever running at you, just hold your arm out and let him grab on, then start swinging him around and taunting him for not being blessed by darwin with anything real predators have. Your average dog only has a chance in combat if it gets large prey by the neck, which is very hard to do if you're alone and don't have a pack to overwhelm with. That in no way applies to every creature, however, and there's a multitude of them who are more than equipped for solo PvP, and do so with ease.

Humans are even more pathetic trying to hunt solo, but with their technology you can see them solo anything in any numbers.

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2010.09.11 03:18:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Crimsonjade
The best pvp. And this is no joke, is normally found in high sec . Of all the wars I have fought in the last 7 years of eve. Small wars for fun is where it's atYARRRR!!


hisec pvp consists of camping a station with 50 neutral RR ships per gank ship. it also involves ****ing off fast when a small gang with large amounts of ecm support takes care of those neutral rr alts.

Inepsa1987
Gallente
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.09.11 03:29:00 - [27]
 

Blobs happen a lot. But good pvp alliance's learn to wipe a 300 man blob with a 150 man Fleet. Small gang warfare happens in between blob fights all the time, fights happen all over, not just at gates. The best fleets are like 15-25 guys fighting 20-30.

Crimsonjade
Posted - 2010.09.11 03:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz
Originally by: Crimsonjade
The best pvp. And this is no joke, is normally found in high sec . Of all the wars I have fought in the last 7 years of eve. Small wars for fun is where it's atYARRRR!!


hisec pvp consists of camping a station with 50 neutral RR ships per gank ship. it also involves ****ing off fast when a small gang with large amounts of ecm support takes care of those neutral rr alts.


If you pick your empire war targets and get that
response, your doing it wrong .

You have to pick your targets. And I'm not talking about eve uni. My friends and I would pick on 0.0 alliances and industrial alliances. Now we did camp Jita. We also roamed the pipelines that feed into it. Pvp is what you make it. One mans kill is someone elses " I got ganked"

To

DOOM2K
Posted - 2010.09.11 03:41:00 - [29]
 

I'm very new to EVE but I found that most PvP happens on EFT.

Jita Alt666
Posted - 2010.09.11 04:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Mr Kidd

Only dumbasses meet their enemy on equal terms and for no tactical or strategic advantage.


Well, the "Smart" gameplay is arguably boring, as it just means people don't fight unless they have a bigger blob.

There should be some reason to split a combat front, instead of just having everyone engage at the same place at the same time.


well thing is, fighting a common threat by using safety in numbers is the smartest thing to do.

look at how wolves hunt in the wilderness, and even the prehistoric humans did it.

it's just in our blood. we look for safety in numbers.



plus you have to add to the fact that blobs happen not because of the sake of blobbing but because everyone and their dog wants to be in the killmail.


Then add in the fact that CCP's game mechanics show favour to larger numbers. SBU, TCU, Outpost battles all encourage blobbing.


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