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Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.07 15:20:00 - [1]
 

I have a Viator to use for a few necessary losec runs. I should have no problems jumping gate-to-gate and docking. However, I am concerned about undocking since I won't be able to cloak until I clear the 0m station horizon. It seems to me there are two possible strategies.

Strategy 1: Fit an AB to reduce signature and put 3 inertia mods in the lows. Then I warp immediately and hope I get warped before a lock.

Strategy 2: Fit an MWD. Hit the MWD as soon as I undock and then hit the cloak as soon as I clear the 0m horizon.

Which is the better strategy?

[Being a cautious soul, whenever I dock in losec for a quick stop I immediately check Guests to see if anybody leaves as soon as I dock. If so, I will go AFK for awhile in case he is camping. So my question above is for the rarer situations when that doesn't work.]

OneTimeAt BannedSpank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.09.07 15:26:00 - [2]
 

If you don't want to take any risk whatsoever simply find the undock point (its fixed per station model) and setup an insta undock prior to docking in an unfamiliar station.

Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
Posted - 2010.09.07 16:05:00 - [3]
 

1. Get a cheap, fast MWD equiped frig
2. Go to the stations you are worried about
3. Undock, hit MWD, wait...
4. Wait some more...
5. Bookmark location that is 150km+ from station. The longer the better, use multiples if you want
6. Use insta warp bookmarks when undocking your expensive ships.

Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2010.09.07 16:38:00 - [4]
 

Keep in mind that even a well-placed instawarp bookmark is only about 99% secure. A fast locking remote/sensor boosting camp can still manage to lock you before you engage warp, depending on server ticks/lag etc.

Henri Rearden
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.07 17:27:00 - [5]
 

For what it's worth, I have a Viator and I use a combination of these. Usually I have nanos in the lows and an AB fitted, and I use insta-warp points on commonly used stations. I think the MWD would work too... the problem is, if the pirate is in the right place and paying real attention in a fast tackle ship, you probably will get scrammed before you can warp or cloak. For the record, unless you're dabbling in lowsec areas that are REALLY badly infested by pirates, this will rarely be an issue.

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.07 19:17:00 - [6]
 

Hmmm. I thought the insta warp trick was nerfed when the fix to undocking to avoid bumps by sending ships out a random angles 0-8 degrees was introduced. Unless you are very lucky you will be in the worst-case align time situation of a few degrees off alignment so that it can take longer than a 180 degree align.

The problem is that you are already undocking at high speed and it takes longer to align at high speed. CCP apparently uses two different algorithms for aligning. If the angle is small, it simply aligns without slowing down. If the angle is larger than ~10 degrees, the ship will slow down first before aligning. The problem is that there is a window of a few degrees where align-at-speed takes longer than slowing, aligning, and accelerating back up to warp speed. [I tried reporting this as a bug but I got the usual, "It's working as designed" stonewall.]

I am painfully aware of this because I have to drive a freighter a lot. It's really obvious then because it can cost an extra 10-20 seconds of align time. There are few things more annoying than staring at the motionless rear end of a freighter that occludes the warp point while waiting 30+ seconds for warp. If the target location is close to alignment I can save time by manually stopping the freighter and hitting warp when its speed drops to about 1/3 of maximum rather than warping immediately on undock; essentially I am manually emulating the slow-down algorithm. As a bonus I can see progress and estimate how far I have to go by watching the speedometer.

[BTW, you can tell which algorithm is in play by looking at the speed. If the ship speed is below 3/4 and increasing as you approach alignment, CCP used the slow-down algorithm. If the indicator is all blue and says "warping" it is using the align-at-speed algorithm.]

Now it is possible that the algorithm manifests itself differently for freighters than for smaller ships and the insta align is not penalized. That is, for small ships the selection threshold is correctly at the angle where both algorithms yield the same time but it is incorrecly placed for freighters. The small ship align time isn't important enough to worry about in most situations so I haven't paid attention to it. But undocking in losec with somebody camped is a special situation where it might matter. Since you guys seem to be still using insta warp points, that suggests that they haven't been nerfed for small ships.

Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
Posted - 2010.09.07 20:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep
Hmmm. I thought the insta warp trick was nerfed when the fix to undocking to avoid bumps by sending ships out a random angles 0-8 degrees was introduced. Unless you are very lucky you will be in the worst-case align time situation of a few degrees off alignment so that it can take longer than a 180 degree align.

The problem is that you are already undocking at high speed and it takes longer to align at high speed. CCP apparently uses two different algorithms for aligning. If the angle is small, it simply aligns without slowing down. If the angle is larger than ~10 degrees, the ship will slow down first before aligning. The problem is that there is a window of a few degrees where align-at-speed takes longer than slowing, aligning, and accelerating back up to warp speed. [I tried reporting this as a bug but I got the usual, "It's working as designed" stonewall.]

I am painfully aware of this because I have to drive a freighter a lot. It's really obvious then because it can cost an extra 10-20 seconds of align time. There are few things more annoying than staring at the motionless rear end of a freighter that occludes the warp point while waiting 30+ seconds for warp. If the target location is close to alignment I can save time by manually stopping the freighter and hitting warp when its speed drops to about 1/3 of maximum rather than warping immediately on undock; essentially I am manually emulating the slow-down algorithm. As a bonus I can see progress and estimate how far I have to go by watching the speedometer.

[BTW, you can tell which algorithm is in play by looking at the speed. If the ship speed is below 3/4 and increasing as you approach alignment, CCP used the slow-down algorithm. If the indicator is all blue and says "warping" it is using the align-at-speed algorithm.]

Now it is possible that the algorithm manifests itself differently for freighters than for smaller ships and the insta align is not penalized. That is, for small ships the selection threshold is correctly at the angle where both algorithms yield the same time but it is incorrecly placed for freighters. The small ship align time isn't important enough to worry about in most situations so I haven't paid attention to it. But undocking in losec with somebody camped is a special situation where it might matter. Since you guys seem to be still using insta warp points, that suggests that they haven't been nerfed for small ships.


You are talking about a Viator here, it's AGI is more than enough to make up for the 0-8% variance you will get. It may take a few times undocking to get an optimal angel for your insta waprs,but really only the fastest locking ships in the game will be able to hit you. As with all things in Eve nothing is %100 safe, but unless you get hit with a lag monster of epic proportions you should be fine. If you are that concerned with it, then use a trial account scout to check the exit.

Jack Tramp
Innocent Until Proven Guilty
Posted - 2010.09.08 00:37:00 - [8]
 

Is it to obvious to just redock?

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.08 03:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kneebone


You are talking about a Viator here, it's AGI is more than enough to make up for the 0-8% variance you will get. It may take a few times undocking to get an optimal angel for your insta warps,but really only the fastest locking ships in the game will be able to hit you.


My point was that if you are 2-8 degrees off from alignment coming out of the dock it can take longer to align to the insta warp point than if you were 180 degrees off -- at least that's the way it works for freighters. Because of the way CCP now avoids bumping by randomizing the angle of exit, that would usually be the case, in which case the insta warp point does you no good most of the time. OTOH, if your experience is that this is only a problem for freighters and not small ships like Viators, that's fine. But I'd kind of like to know before risking a bunch of +5 implants.

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.08 04:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jack Tramp
Is it to obvious to just redock?


I think so. You have to reach the 0m horizon or wait 15+ seconds, whichever is less, before you can redock. Either way it is a lot of time for someone to get a lock on you.

Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
Posted - 2010.09.08 04:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep
Originally by: Kneebone


You are talking about a Viator here, it's AGI is more than enough to make up for the 0-8% variance you will get. It may take a few times undocking to get an optimal angel for your insta warps,but really only the fastest locking ships in the game will be able to hit you.


My point was that if you are 2-8 degrees off from alignment coming out of the dock it can take longer to align to the insta warp point than if you were 180 degrees off -- at least that's the way it works for freighters. Because of the way CCP now avoids bumping by randomizing the angle of exit, that would usually be the case, in which case the insta warp point does you no good most of the time. OTOH, if your experience is that this is only a problem for freighters and not small ships like Viators, that's fine. But I'd kind of like to know before risking a bunch of +5 implants.


doesn't work that way. I fly a Crane into and out of lowsec all the time. When I undock I have my bookmarks option open and am already moused over the bookmark so it is very quick. I am exposed for all of 2 seconds if that. Test it out at a highsec point if you don't believe me.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.08 04:27:00 - [12]
 

Name you undock bookmarks with a . in front. Then, they are always at the top of your rightclick menu. No more hunting!

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2010.09.08 08:25:00 - [13]
 

Unless you manage to hit a system where there pirates that a) know you are coming b) Have their ships pimped to locking

If you are flying a fast frig ( I mean fast) then the biggest reason for getting caught is either eve-lag or human-lag (aka, you are daydreaming while jumping) otherwise you need "pirates" that: a) know you are coming b) Have their ships pimped to locking.

You can mostly outrun any bubbles as long as you realize that you are in a bubble and react instantly. Also when using a fast frig the only thing that can catch you is a point (more or less) and having warp core stabilizer will save you from one point. I've noticed it's quite rare that there are two fast lockers. Even if there are two, the other one also has to react fast and even if they get two points on you...you are already moving fast and have a change to outrun at least one point.

If they get you, they are good.

Alt Tabbed
Posted - 2010.09.08 10:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep


But I'd kind of like to know before risking a bunch of +5 implants.



You're in Low Sec... Not Null Sec. The risks of losing a pod are limited to Lag and ineptitude. Limit both, and you'll be ok.


Adophnil
Amarr
Dark Reality Unified
INVICTUS ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.09.08 12:37:00 - [15]
 

Here's a quick how-to on Station Games.

1. Open your general settings and click "Show Session Timer". You should have done this already, so you know when your safe to drop cloak and burn back to gate if need be.

2. When you undock immediately hit stop ship. Do not activate any module, do not deviate from the course you were on, do not fly your ship whatsoever. You now have undocking immunity.

3. Session timer is 30 seconds. Undock immunity, like cloak, is longer than that. If you see hostile ships, wait for your session timer to end, spam dock.

4. Sometimes people can bump you off course (which sometimes removes immunity) - this is mean. It's also hard and not a high % move.

Take the advice of people above me. Insta-Undocks are win. With a combination of station games and Insta-Undocks based on what threats are present, you will never die. Heavy Interdictor? Dock. Battleship? Insta-Undock warp.


Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.09.08 12:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Jarne on 08/09/2010 12:44:14
1.) Make an instaundock. Make it so that it points into the average undock direction (this minimizes the deviation from the perfect angle when undocking). Note: Many stations have that average undock direction aligned with one of the tactical overlay axes. Better make it offgrid and hit cloak as soon as possible.

2.) In the Esc-menu, check the "Show session timer" box.

3.) Determine what kind of station it is you want to undock from regarding the docking radius. There are three kinds:
a) Stations where you remain inside docking radius for 30 seconds after undocking. Note: you are invulnerable for 30 seconds (the session timer) when undocking, if you don't do a thing. You may click "stop" though to slow your ship down. If there's a camp, you can just redock at those stations.
b) Stations where your distance to the station, 30 seconds after undocking, is >2km. You might then be able to cloak if there is no object in the way. If this is possible within the 30 seconds, you will be "perfectly" safe and can warp to the undock.
c) Stations where neither of the above applies. I think these are very rare or maybe even don't exist (you can always hit "stop" after undocking anyways).

4.) Use a scout. Only undock if there is nothing that can harm you. Most ships able to tackle you in time will pop very fast by sentries. Others need remote sensor boost. So if there is no gang on the station but only one ship you should be safe. Use the undock anyway.

I cannot imagine any scenario in which you could be caught with the above precautions. Only specialized gangs could get you if you have an instaundock anyways. That risk you can avoid with a scout.

Edit: Ooops, above poster was faster :)

Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.09.08 20:11:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep
I have a Viator to use for a few necessary losec runs. I should have no problems jumping gate-to-gate and docking. However, I am concerned about undocking since I won't be able to cloak until I clear the 0m station horizon. It seems to me there are two possible strategies.

Strategy 1: Fit an AB to reduce signature and put 3 inertia mods in the lows. Then I warp immediately and hope I get warped before a lock.

Strategy 2: Fit an MWD. Hit the MWD as soon as I undock and then hit the cloak as soon as I clear the 0m horizon.

Which is the better strategy?

[Being a cautious soul, whenever I dock in losec for a quick stop I immediately check Guests to see if anybody leaves as soon as I dock. If so, I will go AFK for awhile in case he is camping. So my question above is for the rarer situations when that doesn't work.]


the best idea, is to use a small frig/inty with MWD to create an insta-undock point from the stations involved.

then, in your:
1) viator
2) undock
3) warp to insta-undock bookmark
4) ...
5) profit \o/

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2010.09.08 23:35:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep
I should have no problems jumping gate-to-gate and docking.


Don't be so sure.

I was bringing fittings to a station where I had grabbed some cheap Rifters. I was using my no-skill BR (rigged Itty3 w/ cloak and MWD), but a real BR would not have made a difference. I jumped into the system, saw there were pirates in local, but they weren't on the gate. No sweat, clicked on dock and warped to station. The pies were on station, and I didn't warp close enough to dock immediately, and they got me.

You will need BM for the station docking too.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2010.09.08 23:40:00 - [19]
 

Let me add that there is a very easy way to place your insta undocks precisely. Activate the tactical overlay. The center of the undock "cone" is always aligned along one of the four axes of the tactical overlay. Undock in your fast MWD frig, and just fly straight out along the axis and you will be directly on center of the undock cone.

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.09 03:30:00 - [20]
 

Thanks all. The immunity bit is very useful. I thought there was none for undocking because many moons ago when first started out I got blown up undocking. What I didn't realize was that the immunity depends on doing nothing and I probably did something. (Should have figured that out, though, from the way gate cloaks work.)

Alas, insta warps will usually not be an option. The runs I will be doing into losec will almost always be to stations I have not visited before.

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Elbie Klep
I should have no problems jumping gate-to-gate and docking.


Don't be so sure.


When I dock in the Viator I will be cloaked all the way to the dock. AFAIK the only way that could screw up is if I was unlucky enough to come out of jump > 0m AND there was a ship immediately in front of me that I bumped to lose cloak.

Quote:
You will need BM for the station docking too.



I am not sure why I would need a BM for docking.

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.09.09 10:16:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jarne on 09/09/2010 10:19:31
Just make an instaundock at every station you ever visit. You won't regret it.

I have to agree, an instadock bookmark is a very useful thing to have (though I personally only have one at Jita 4-4 :)). The thing is, if you warp to a station, you will not warp to the center of the station but to the docking perimeter. From time to time you will be outside docking range when you arrive. This is because you will come out of warp not exactly at the point you warped to, but with a small random deviation. You can also come out of warp outside jump range at a stargate this way. I personally think it happens more often with ships with high agility (especially pods), because they decelerate much faster when coming out of warp.

An instadock bookmark solves this problem. It works this way: You move yourself to some point close to the the actual center of the station and make a bookmark. This bookmark will be very far from the docking perimeter. So, when warping to the instadock bookmark you will be inside docking range 100% of the time. Note that you probably shouldn't make the bookmark too close to the station model, otherwise you might be bumped from the station when coming out of warp.

These kinds of bookmark were even useful in the pre-warp-to-zero era, where you could only warp to celestials or bookmark at a distance of 15km (station docking perimeter radius is way more than 15km).


Edit:
Quote:
The center of the undock "cone" is always aligned along one of the four axes of the tactical overlay.


This is not entirely true. Granted, there are many station where this is the case. There are some where this doesn't apply though. These include some Gallente stations where you undock with an angle of about 30 degrees from the tactical overlay axes. And then there are of course those mining and amarr stations where you undock at the bottom and thus have to create the undock spots below the station.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.09.09 12:32:00 - [22]
 

Get a trial account. Fly the toon in a noob ship to the station you're going. Dock him up and get him to set that station as his clone station, or one nearby. Undock him and have him wait around the station. If there's nasty piwats around, don't undock your main.

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.09 15:08:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jarne
Edited by: Jarne on 09/09/2010 10:19:31I have to agree, an instadock bookmark is a very useful thing to have (though I personally only have one at Jita 4-4 :)). The thing is, if you warp to a station, you will not warp to the center of the station but to the docking perimeter. From time to time you will be outside docking range when you arrive. This is because you will come out of warp not exactly at the point you warped to, but with a small random deviation. You can also come out of warp outside jump range at a stargate this way. I personally think it happens more often with ships with high agility (especially pods), because they decelerate much faster when coming out of warp.


I understand that, but I don't see how it affects the Viator under cloak. The cloak will still be on while the ship approaches so any lurker will not even be aware you are there until you blink into view as you dock. It seems like that trick is only useful if you do not have an Improved II cloak.

Also, how do you get to the center of the station? When I move that close I bump the exterior of the station. And if I put a BM anywhere outside the station there will still be a chance of being 2500m away from the BM and outside the 0m envelope.

Finally, I thought the warp-to-zero was to the station skin. If it were the docking perimeter, then 50% of the time you would be > 0m. But that is rather unusual; my gut feeling is it only happens < 20% of the time and quite commonly you bump the station itself while decelerating.

Ravenesa
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2010.09.09 15:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Elbie Klep
I should have no problems jumping gate-to-gate and docking.


Don't be so sure.

I was bringing fittings to a station where I had grabbed some cheap Rifters. I was using my no-skill BR (rigged Itty3 w/ cloak and MWD), but a real BR would not have made a difference. I jumped into the system, saw there were pirates in local, but they weren't on the gate. No sweat, clicked on dock and warped to station. The pies were on station, and I didn't warp close enough to dock immediately, and they got me.

You will need BM for the station docking too.



You are not using a BR, you are using an untanked ship that you put a lot of fitting mods on to get the MWD to fit. BR's use covert ups cloaks that let them warp while cloaked. They would not have seen you coming in, you would have a T2 resist, etc. This would be more like a DST.

Otto TheRed
Gallente
Scions of Ithaca
Valor Empire
Posted - 2010.09.09 15:57:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Otto TheRed on 09/09/2010 16:01:15
Weird - I read this thread yesterday and thought I learned something. Then, last night, I was quietly making my way around lowsec in my Viator picking up the weekly buy orders. I docked in a station - pretty relaxed since I was the only person in the system - loaded items into my cargo, and lazily clicked to undock. Just as I clicked I noticed another person in the system - "No worries" I figured, he's just warped in through a gate, I'll blow right by him.

But as soon as I was outside I saw a Proteus sitting right on the station. Of course I panicked and forgetting everything I had read in this thread tried to align to the next gate to warp. Instantly I heard the locking noise and Oh NOES! the Proteus locked and scrammed me in about 2 seconds. His first shots went half-way through my armor and my heart sank.

Now you can imagine how stupid I felt considering my cargo was crammed with 100s of armor plates, other salvage, and faction mods and decrypters I had picked up in a week of anomolies and scanning. At the last second I remembered that I had fit an ECM burst, so I clicked it frantically, ignored the CONCORD warning, and miracle of miracles, it broke the scram and I warped out to a safe and cloaked up to catch my breath and wait out the aggression counter.


Turns out he logged into the game in my exact station a few seconds before I undocked, saw someone unfamiliar and instantly undocked. I was so inattentive (and he was so quick) that I never even saw him in the station (I was probably too busy gloating over the size of my cargo or something). Anyway, we had a nice chat about it and I learned an important lesson about paying attention to local, station guests, and the vulnerability of a Viator when undocking.

Random Alt147782
Posted - 2010.09.09 17:00:00 - [26]
 

You survived so you learned your lesson, that is all that matters. This would be a second lesson. If you see someone in system in lowsec, no matter what, don't be lazy and "relaxed" that is how most people get killed.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2010.09.09 17:34:00 - [27]
 

Judging by the responses, the answer is obviously making insta BMs.

I prefer to make mine off grid, which involves undocking reasonably center of that whole undock cone, then burn the MWD for about 400km or so. Once the station and ships and all that disappear you should be good.

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.09.10 13:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Elbie Klep
I understand that, but I don't see how it affects the Viator under cloak. The cloak will still be on while the ship approaches so any lurker will not even be aware you are there until you blink into view as you dock. It seems like that trick is only useful if you do not have an Improved II cloak.

Also, how do you get to the center of the station? When I move that close I bump the exterior of the station. And if I put a BM anywhere outside the station there will still be a chance of being 2500m away from the BM and outside the 0m envelope.

Finally, I thought the warp-to-zero was to the station skin. If it were the docking perimeter, then 50% of the time you would be > 0m. But that is rather unusual; my gut feeling is it only happens < 20% of the time and quite commonly you bump the station itself while decelerating.


It's quite simple actually:

Decloak distance is 2km. I.e., if you get within 2km of any object in space, your cloak will be deactivated, regardless what type of cloak you have fitted.

Docking distance is about 500m (or maybe 600m?). So, if you happen to come out of cloak more than 500m/600m from the station but within 2km, you will be decloaked and not able to dock. Granted, if you have an MWD fitted you probably will still be able to dock before getting popped, but there is a small risk.

Regarding your second question: Just find a point deep within the docking perimeter of the station. Every station has such points. You don't need to hug the outside of the station, but you shouldn't be on the edge of the docking perimeter. So as a rule of thumb, if approaching the station, when you hit 0km, just fly a few more seconds.

Regarding your final comment: I don't know exactly how it works, but I assume that you warp to the docking perimeter and thus the "real" (i.e., with deviation) destination is within 0km of the station 50% of the time and >0km the other 50%. But the inertia of your ship let's you get a bit closer most of the time. Pods (which have next to no inertia) tend to come out not withing docking range or jump range much more often. Also consider that docking range is not 0km but 500m/600m, so this further reduces the percentage of the case where you come out of warp and are not in docking range...

Otto TheRed
Gallente
Scions of Ithaca
Valor Empire
Posted - 2010.09.10 14:47:00 - [29]
 

I have noticed something slightly different: Lets say I am cloaked and want to warp to a station and dock. I click the "dock" button and my ship enters warp heading for the station. About 10% of the time, I come out of warp still cloaked but hear the message "you are unable to dock because you are cloaked". But then I drift close enough to the station to uncloak.

This is the worst of all possible worlds since I am sitting and visible outside the station. Is it better to warp and *then* dock? Or to try to time an uncloak at the last possible second before docking? Has anyone else experienced this?

Elbie Klep
Posted - 2010.09.10 18:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jarne

Docking distance is about 500m (or maybe 600m?). So, if you happen to come out of cloak more than 500m/600m from the station but within 2km, you will be decloaked and not able to dock. Granted, if you have an MWD fitted you probably will still be able to dock before getting popped, but there is a small risk.


This is the part -- 500m for the docking hoizon -- that doesn't compute for me. So I ran some experiments.

(1) On undocking my initial speed coming out of the black screen was 316 m/s that started dropping immediately to my base speed of 218 m/s. It took 23 seconds to reach the 0m horizon. At an average speed of about 250 m/s that would be 5750m. This is conservative because the ship was already outside the bay when I could first see anythng to time. [Note that this argues strongly that one does not want to try to MWD out to 2 Km beyond the 0m horizon to turn on one's cloak. It will still take several seconds of acceleration, which is probably long enough to get a lock.]

(2) On approaching the station at 10 m/s my ship started to decerate at about 150m from the station and was nearly at dead stop at 125m. I was able to dock when I was at 125m. This probably varies for station to station but it is pretty clear that the 0m horizon is supposed to also be the maximum docking distance.

(3) On approaching the station at 100 m/s it took 5 seconds from reaching the 0m horizon until the ship bumped the station. It had decelerated to about 10 m/s at the bump. Since the average speed was 55 m/s, that implies the 0m horizon is about 300m from the station. (However, deceleration does not seem to be linear so 500m might be a better estimate.) While this is close to your estimate of the location, it is seriously inconsistent with (1).

(4) On undocking I tried cloaking after 20 seconds but before the 0m horizon. No go. One really has to be 2 Km from the station.

For (1) and (3) to be even grossly consistent, what one bumps into when approaching can't be the station skin or the docking horizon. That is, there is a separate decloak/bump horizon about 500m inside the 0m horizon that is at least 2.5 Km from the station skin. Note that this gives the undocker a nice cushion to stop the ship and redock when the session timer runs out.

There is some inconsistency when docking, but it probably isn't a big deal from a simulation viewpoint because of the tow-to-dock assumption. That is, where one actually is relative to the station skin vis a vis getting popped or getting towed really doesn't matter; you're available or you aren't.

However, I think that inconsistency may account for Otto TheRed's issue. If you happen to arrive between the inner decloak/bump horizon and the 0m horizon you are in a weird situation. You are close enough to dock but can still be cloaked. So you get the turn-off-your-cloak message. When I have gotten it it has not been a problem. I just click the cloak off and immediately click "dock". I will usually get the docking notice before the cloaking effect is off, so the risk window is just the time to do the two clicks. If you are reasonably quick nobody should get a lock in that time. [But be sure to check where you are. I always get it within the 0m horizon. But if you get it outside, then you want to approach while clocked first.]

I haven't had a problem in any of the cases where I warped in cloaked and was within the 0m horizon without getting the message. The ship just went ahead and docked automatically. I think if you arrive within the inner horizon, the server just docks you instead of doing a bump as an optimization.

The case where you arrive outside the 0m horizon isn't a problem either because you will automatically approach until within docking distance while cloaked. If you are at speed you will probably pass the weird space between horizons before the server gets around to processing the docking so you simply dock automatically. Else you get the message.


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