open All Channels
seplocked Market Discussions
blankseplocked STOP TITANS$U TRADE ASAP
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 : last (14)

Author Topic

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 11:52:00 - [331]
 

Quote:

as for the real money trading I dare say CCP will be keeping and eagel eye on bobbys accounts



After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already.

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.10 12:12:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

as for the real money trading I dare say CCP will be keeping and eagel eye on bobbys accounts



After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already.



Indeed.

I must say I'd be mighty tempted btw if I could get several tens of thousands of $$$$ for the isk to breach the EULA.


Drexciyian
The Water Margin Tech
Posted - 2010.09.10 12:27:00 - [333]
 

So who was the biggest loser in this?

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.10 12:48:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Bill Alt
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller

Yet clearly you don't... Or maybe you think destroying one's cap fleet is immoral too? Since that's destruction of ISK on quite a large scale would you not say?




You clearly don't get the point. Trusting a lot of folks not to blow up your cap fleet?

Bad call. Really.
I would trust the ppl I manage the fleet with, not 100% trust of course, as we all know backstabbing is part of THE GAME. Much like the investors trusted BB and his henchmen.

Once again you fail to see how similar it all is...

But is that what this is all about? It's immoral to betray someone's trust in a game that is known for it's backstabbing and betrayal?

Someone mentioned the board game "RISK" earlier, where you often form alliances with ppl to reach common goals. At some point though these goals might not be so common anymore and the backstabbing begins. Is that immoral too? I never experienced it that way myself and don't know anyone who does tbh.

Why? Cause it's part of the game!


Note: none of the ppl I've played the game with have turned out to be backstabbers, murderers or world conquerors or what not so far...

zooming
Posted - 2010.09.10 12:51:00 - [335]
 

OK, so I lost about 3 Bil to this BB scam, and what angers me most (apart from my own stupidity for not selling up) is all the idiots who post on here saying "I knew it" or "It's obvious".

I mean, I had a gut feeling it was a terrible investment but I was lazy and kept the shares, and I got punished for that, no problem, I'll take it.

But really if anyone thought it was a scam why didn't any of you ever start a thread before this and say what you thought??

In Bb's own words....

"Going from running a 9b isk bond directly into running a 200b+ IPO using a character that is a known pirate, with known scammer sympathies, who has never been audited, who to that point had never returned any invested isk, who has the name "Bad Bobby", who belongs to a corp called "The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"..."

So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md.

To the established elite, for all your posturing and elitism, and scorn you pour on people asking questions, ask yourselves what have you achieved by enabling this to happen? - it's YOUR collective fault more than anyone else that things like this happen on eve.

To the moral brigade, Bb's scam is fine, no karma issue IF all the ISK stays in Eve as he has already stated it will.

Would he really come back and answer questions if he was going to try and ebay sell it?!!!

Finally, alphabetical list of people to trust ISK with on this forum, who have sense, can make a return on your investment, and who I hope would not turn to scamming.

Cista2

Raw23


Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2010.09.10 13:22:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Complete freedom allows to show yourself for who you are.
Fear of discovering yourself?

I disagree and agree at the same time. I do think that a lot of people are conditioned to do what they do in their real lives by social environments and enforcement laws, rewards or punishments, that same people may behave otherwise if their environment were different, showing their "true face", so to speak. There you are right, but only sometimes.

There are also people who behave very differently in different social groups (people they know, people they don't know, people they love, etc), you have said or implied previously that people can only be bad or good, truth is that people are complex.

There are people that are free to chose who they want to be (more or less, let's just say that they are at least conscious and don't follow a reward/punishment system (or at least not without knowing)). This people may choose to change what they do based on the moment, like choosing to do things in a game differently because it is a game and decide that it is alright to play it differently.

Lastly there is this acting thing that you seem to be so confused about. When you act you do different things that you'd do yourself, and how can you do it? Because you are not being yourself.
The best acting (from my personal experience) comes when you become the character, like if it were a suit you put on. This has a few dangers as you can see in some actors and actresses being broken after a very intense act (every actor should really put a few failsafes there). If you don't do it that way you are just faking it, is not real.
So acting has nothing to do with who you are in real life, although I concede that some people may use this as an excuse to unleash who they really would be if given the chance, I think you can differentiate those by their behavior after the scam most of the time.

Are you religious or have been indoctrinated in some form of thought? I ask because those are the ones that tend to simplify the world to such degree so it can be classified and explained in simple terms for the people to do what they want them to do.

In resume: world and people are complex, you can not dogmatize judgement on people, you can judge the actions, but you must be the actual person to have the lightest insight on what's going on inside, and even then you may not understand yourself sometimes.

Just to clarify my position, I'll say that I'm free or under the illusion of being so, I'm mostly aware of the doctrines that were inculcated in me when child, I'm capable of the best and worst, free from dogmas. I chose to do what you would label as good most of the time, I like being nice to others although sometimes rough with my words when I think something is not right. I'm also an actor sometimes, although I chose not to act when not on an scenery or under the camera. That said, I chose not to act on this character (or any in the account, the only one I have) since this is being mostly me in the game.
I do believe too that scamming is very different than any other mechanic (except maybe thieving) in the game since here you take a compromise yourself to do something knowing that you wont. I would have to change radically my current being in order to scam since being honest is very important to me, I would need a very strong reason to do it, a reason that I believe is impossible to find in a game.

israus
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.10 13:59:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha


After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already.



There is no way he could sell that money easyly to rmt's either before it was announced or any time in the near future ccp will have checked and be checking on his account to monitor where the money goes.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 14:01:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/09/2010 14:03:49
Quote:

So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md.



I may try reply this, even if I am not "established elite" (I just post a lot).
BB played very well his cards. Unlike others he did not act all high and elite, he did not create bonds typed in 2 minutes like "If ur frends giev me 10B nao kthxbye".
I did not trust him to be beyond doubt because his systematic refusal of any accounting, ridicolously low interests % and the continuous re-financing of debt.
Still when I wanted to use his rates BPO purchase service he was quite professional and correct.

This is one of the reasons why I am so annoyed at him, because he WAS good, he HAD huge potential, he was not just faking it. I sincerely hoped he was one of those few persons worth dealing with, not just another in the huge ocean of human manure.

I know of an investor who felt even worse than me at this, he adopted BB as a model to follow, he copied him, he really had BB on a pedestal. He feels terribly now - the financial loss does not even dent his wallet but the psychological hit was tremendous, he even changed his approach towards RL people due to this and now he's permanently suspicious and cynical.
So RL harm HAS been made, at least in one case.


Quote:

Finally, alphabetical list of people to trust ISK with on this forum, who have sense, can make a return on your investment, and who I hope would not turn to scamming.

Cista2

Raw23



Your list could be too long.


Quote:

The best acting (from my personal experience) comes when you become the character, like if it were a suit you put on



This whole chunk of statements ends up being too subjective to decide if someone is right or wrong. In my experience, though, characters have their traits like a suit and the actor "wears them" like gloves.
When the two match, you get the perfect acting, the actor did put his true self into it, it just happens to mesh perfectly with the canvas.


Quote:

Are you religious or have been indoctrinated in some form of thought?



In theory, maybe. I wish I was. Life would be easier. I try simplifying things because a life of shades affects my perennial search for a sense in life, admitting there's one.


Quote:

Just to clarify my position, I'll say that I'm free or under the illusion of being



I believe the latter. Who is really free? There have to be boundaries (the famous "your freedom ends where mine begins") but boundaries mean no complete freedom exists.


Quote:

I would have to change radically my current being in order to scam since being honest is very important to me, I would need a very strong reason to do it, a reason that I believe is impossible to find in a game.



In BB case it's even worse than that. It's easy to be evil when it's cheap or you are worthless, but BB renounced to ... everything (but money) and was not worthless. This makes for something I fail to understand. I could wash my butt with 850B that costed me my face.

Jion Tichy
Posted - 2010.09.10 14:22:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 14:23:00
I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts. These are people you talk to every day, who have used their positions and familiarity in order to become immune to criticism.

Ever thought about who that might be?

My guess is that you haven't heard the last of Bad Bobby.

BTW, I have a very good guess as to who Bad Bobby's "main" is, to whatever degree such a person can be said to have a main.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 14:37:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Jion Tichy
Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 14:23:00
I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts. These are people you talk to every day, who have used their positions and familiarity in order to become immune to criticism.

Ever thought about who that might be?

My guess is that you haven't heard the last of Bad Bobby.

BTW, I have a very good guess as to who Bad Bobby's "main" is, to whatever degree such a person can be said to have a main.


His "main" killed one of my ships in 0.0 CVA space iirc.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.09.10 15:16:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 10/09/2010 15:19:15
Originally by: Jion Tichy
I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts.

lol, have you ever heard of some guy named Riethe?

edit: does anybody know a good theologian? we need some creative way to resolve the "all of MD are Riethe alts", "all of SCC are Ji Sama alts" and "all of MD are Bad Bobby" paradoxon without coming to the conclusion that Bad Bobby = Riethe.

Berikath
Posted - 2010.09.10 15:53:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Berikath on 10/09/2010 17:19:16
Originally by: Hel O'Ween
You seem to be missing the fact that since the invention of PLEX, you are stealing real life money from real life people.


You seem to be missing the facts that
1. You can only (LEGALLY) convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back.
2. You never have to spend RL money to make billions of ISK (barring a $5 activation for an account).

Your argument has about the same validity as saying visitors to your house steal oxygen from you because you can go and buy it in an oxygen bar.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.09.10 16:06:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Berikath
1. You can only convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back.

Tell that to ricdic and his mortgage.

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.10 16:59:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I know of an investor who felt even worse than me at this, he adopted BB as a model to follow, he copied him, he really had BB on a pedestal. He feels terribly now - the financial loss does not even dent his wallet but the psychological hit was tremendous, he even changed his approach towards RL people due to this and now he's permanently suspicious and cynical.
So RL harm HAS been made, at least in one case.




You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even Smile

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:06:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Dariah Stardweller

You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even Smile


With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face.

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:16:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller

You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even Smile


With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face.


Dude, seriously, stop the dramatizing...

If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game...

Berikath
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:22:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Berikath on 10/09/2010 17:25:51
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Berikath
1. You can only convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back.

Tell that to ricdic and his mortgage.


Fine, be that way. Edited it:
Originally by: Berikath
1. You can only (LEGALLY) convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back.


I was assuming people were following the rules. If they're complaining that "I lost money to a scam because I could break the rules and convert it to cash!"... in an argument about the ethics of scamming... again, ETHICS of scamming... then their point is pretty laughable IMHO.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face.
That is taking it a bit far. You could realistically say that at some point in their lives everyone will have someone try to take advantage of them; learning to be cautious by losing pixels instead of REAL money could be considered a blessing; pixels are a luxury so losing them won't cause serious harm, but real money is required for things like food and shelter (which are kind of necessary).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:27:00 - [348]
 

Quote:

If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game...



How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person.
I am actually glad that the world is not purely made of (internet) though guys.



Quote:

I was assuming people were following the rules.



Why would a scammer follow the rules?
Do you really believe that someone who could not resist the lust of some virtual money and (by his words) "cashed in" will resist the chance to make sensible real money out of it?

Jion Tichy
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:32:00 - [349]
 

Quote:
How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person.
I am actually glad that the world is not purely made of (internet) though guys.


I think a lot of people are indeed severely injured by events that occur in the game. You make friends in the game and when they stab you in the back it hurts.

In this sense it teaches many lessons about the real world. For better or for worse. I can easily imagine some unstable person shooting himself over events in the game, the way that people shoot themselves over poker. The stakes here are real and they can represent hundreds or tens of thousands of hours of effort.

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.10 17:37:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game...



How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person.


Au contraire, you just told me (and the whole world) a lot about this person. He built up a mental fantasy image of his hero, and then his hero turned out to be a bad guy and that nearly shattered his psyche.

That sounds like a very young and nave person, most of us lose that kind of innocence in their teens, some later (I was a late bloomer myself) and tbh I think it's a lesson everybody should learn and learn it in time, saves you a hard lesson later on.

I would like to close with a statement my father taught me (and his father taught him):
"Son, don't trust anyone, but always be thrustworthy.". I've always found it a good philosophy, though I fear the more paranoid types might overdo it a bit with the 'not trusting anyone'-part Laughing

Jion Tichy
Posted - 2010.09.10 18:33:00 - [351]
 

Not trusting others in the absence of any sort of security is a very effective strategy for limiting risk. Those who do otherwise do so at their peril, both here and in the real world.

In Eve, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" holds true and following the axiom would have saved numerous people a great deal of heartache here and in the past.

Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent?

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.09.10 18:53:00 - [352]
 

Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 18:55:29
Originally by: Jion Tichy

Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent?


That shows your auditing skills are not up to anything near what they can be.

BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion.

Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully.

In fact the only really large offerings that have had issues are banks, and anything Bobby had going.

edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier??



Jion Tichy
Posted - 2010.09.10 18:58:00 - [353]
 

By "large investments" I'm referring to ones that are really big-- in the general scheme of things even 100B isn't that much compared to this most recent one and several previously, especially when adjusted for the greater amount of ISK available now.

To put my question in another way, what is the largest investment so far in the game that ended up not being fraudulent?

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.09.10 19:05:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 19:07:46
Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 19:07:01
Closed offerings would probably be Grendells Line of Credit he just ended.

Open offers, probably BMBE with a NAV of around 186 billion

Seriously, it's not hard to do the research. You better learn now as your will be using EVE Search and manually digging through forums for while doing audits.

Even google is your friend.

edit: another good source, although very outdated, would be this done up by Cosmo

2nd edit: Which I guess shows Block at over 340 bil.


Jin Natha
Yulai Capital Management
Posted - 2010.09.10 19:11:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Jion Tichy
Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent?


ISS may have crumbled somewhat under the weight of Eve politics, but it closed down in an orderly fashion and shares in the outpost holding corps could be exchanged for shares in ISSO (which I think were subsequently bought back).

I may have missed something, but AFAIK it was no scam.




Berikath
Posted - 2010.09.10 19:56:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Why would a scammer follow the rules?
Do you really believe that someone who could not resist the lust of some virtual money and (by his words) "cashed in" will resist the chance to make sensible real money out of it?



I don't. I never said or implied I did.

I expect that someone who views scamming as morally wrong and is complaining about ISK lost to a scammer would be following the rules (in which case, they wouldn't reasonably be able to view ISK as transferable to legal currency).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.10 20:10:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Breaker77
Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 18:55:29
Originally by: Jion Tichy

Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent?


That shows your auditing skills are not up to anything near what they can be.

BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion.

Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully.

In fact the only really large offerings that have had issues are banks, and anything Bobby had going.

edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier??





I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.09.10 20:18:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal.


I realized most of those after I had posted, but I didn't do too bad for spending about 15 seconds to pull names off the top of my head Laughing


Berikath
Posted - 2010.09.10 21:06:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal.


Problem is, "So, we paid our dividend again.... for the 20th month in a row" falls off the page immediately (if it even gets posted). "Bond has run it's course, everyone is now paid off" gets... maybe a couple people who go 'woot, thanks, got my money' then it falls off the page. "Lulz! U guiz got skammed, I gots me some cash!" hangs around for 2 months.

Even if there are more legit offerings than scams, people are going to see the scams far more, so they'll think of them more.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.09.10 21:47:00 - [360]
 

The whole fact that someone doesn't want audit was very fishy to me from the start.Anyone that has something to hide would always avoid audit and even then the risk is very high.Sad


Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 : last (14)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only