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Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.01 08:04:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 08:46:29
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 08:08:19
Are wormholes anything but a waste of time and effort? When one analyses the logistics of transporting in fuel and transporting out processed items there is little margin for profit particularly if one puts an ISK value to the risk involved. How many people need to be in a wormhole to make it viable? If there are too many then the sites are all cleared out and capsuleers are faced with nothing to do for hours on end until something else spawns except maybe play WOW? But if so doesnít that detract from fluent gameplay? Alternatively if there are too few inhabitants then the cost and security becomes prohibitive.
Mining in wormholes is another story all together. Mining without implants seems to take forever to fill a cargo hold, so should it be advisable to take in the clone with michi and highwall along with the maxed foreman and his mindlink? Again what price can one put on risking a billion ISK head? Crystals for ABC are very expensive too so would basic strip miner 1ís be preferred? All in all without an orca onsite to haul and boost, any benefits from mining the ABCís are negated by the security needed i.e. One toon camping the WH gate listening for gate fire. Scanning for probes is a great idea unless before you logged on someone had already come in and book marked all the locations and all they need to do now is directional scan and find which site you are on then warp their cloaked fleet at you.
Refining also strips 25% from the net because of the inefficiency of the refineries. Highsec mining nets me 30 mills per hour with 4 toons. Dump, refine and place on the market. 5 minutes maximum. From a wormhole itís not the case, corp. hangars are not finite and one full orca load almost fills the 200Km3 refinery which then takes 3 hours to process leaving the POS vulnerable as many defenses need to be off lined to feed this power hungry monster. Saturday evenings in highsec I fill 10 orca loads in 5 hours, 150 mills, and no outgoings apart from a few T2 crystals. No risks, just mellowing out with a few drinks.
Oruze constructs and the rest of the rubbish:-
The ones that can be soloed are really not worth the effort and the ones that need a fleet, by the time you add up all the ammo and divide the spoils you might as well have run some level 4íor 5í missions. 200 mill sounds quite a lot for salvage etc but divided by 10 is not that fantastic considering that the site will now disappear and itís not the same as running to an agent and asking for a new mission, you are stuck waiting for another spawn which maybe days away. More WOW?
300 mills per month running a reasonably efficient POS minus the processed minerals and the salvaged items doesnít leave much in the bank for a dividend.
Iím in a C3 WH and have not seen a grav site for 3 days. It spawns a lowsec hole every day and a highsec about every 8 or 9 days it seems. The next highsec opening and Iím getting out because I want to play EVE again instead of just logging scanning and logging off because there is nothing to do.
Anyone else share the same opinion?

Minchurra
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.01 08:06:00 - [2]
 

lol.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.09.01 08:12:00 - [3]
 

wormholes make for Wall of TextWink

MSC Darklord
Posted - 2010.09.01 08:15:00 - [4]
 

Or find an entrance to a wh, do the stuff inside and then just get back into k space? I do it sometimes, specially fun when you see that people live in that wh and you do "their" sites.

Bei ArtJay
Minmatar
The Galactic Collective
Sovereign Technologies
Posted - 2010.09.01 08:30:00 - [5]
 

Made me laugh a few times.

Go back to highsec?

Mallikanth
Posted - 2010.09.01 09:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Dardoign

Are wormholes anything but a waste of time and effort?

Depends what you want to do.

Originally by: Dardoign
How many people need to be in a wormhole to make it viable?

Depends on the Wh and the skills / assets / isk available to the pilot

Originally by: Dardoign
If there are too many then the sites are all cleared out and capsuleers are faced with nothing to do for hours on end until something else spawns except maybe play WOW?

Play what???

Originally by: Dardoign
But if so doesnít that detract from fluent gameplay? Alternatively if there are too few inhabitants then the cost and security becomes prohibitive.

Fluent gameplay? Not sure what you mean, but there is always *something* to do.

Originally by: Dardoign
Mining in wormholes is another story all together. Mining without implants seems to take forever to fill a cargo hold,
You must have crap skills then.

If you need mega expensive implants then it's too much of a risk to undock.

Originally by: Dardoign
Scanning for probes is a great idea unless before you logged on someone had already come in and book marked all the locations and all they need to do now is directional scan and find which site you are on then warp their cloaked fleet at you.

Like empire missions you mean? Rolling Eyes
You want to be totally invisible? Not happening.

Originally by: Dardoign
I fill 10 orca loads in 5 hours, 150 mills, and no outgoings apart from a few T2 crystals. No risks, just mellowing out with a few drinks.

So why interested in Wh - continue being a Empire hugger.

Originally by: Dardoign
Oruze constructs and the rest of the rubbish:-
The ones that can be soloed are really not worth the effort and the ones that need a fleet, by the time you add up all the ammo and divide the spoils..

The fleet can be two or three and if you like WOW so much....

Originally by: Dardoign
300 mills per month running a reasonably efficient POS minus the processed minerals and the salvaged items doesnít leave much in the bank for a dividend.

That's an expensive POS and fuels you buy then...

Originally by: Dardoign
Iím in a C3 WH and have not seen a grav site for 3 days. It spawns a lowsec hole every day and a highsec about every 8 or 9 days it seems. The next highsec opening and Iím getting out because I want to play EVE again instead of just logging scanning and logging off because there is nothing to do.
Anyone else share the same opinion?

Not me. You need Empire or WOW, by your own admission it seems.


Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.01 09:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 09:50:24
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 09:49:24
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 09:48:54
Millikanth,
Addressing your points.
I want to mine, run sites, run missions and basically play Eve.
There is absolutely no problem with assets or ISK. You tell me how that would influence ISK generation in WH space?
Fluent gameplay means actually having something to do when there are no sites left and the only exit leads to alien lowsec. When standings are at Ė9.7 with 2 factions the exit into lowsec is only an option 50% of the time.
No one needs mega implants but if you have the ISK and play eve as much as I do then ďWhy notĒ ? Plus 5ís, with michi and highwall T2 mining drones nets well over 6000m3 in just over 2 minutes if you X by 3 is not to be scoffed at. For PVP yeah I have crap skills but as for mining and mining foreman there is nowhere left to train. Many reporsts say that the maximum range for a laser is 22 kms. Well it ainít itís 23.8kms and how would I know that?
I donít play WOW, I play Eve every minute available to me and yes it is my intention to move back into empire as I stated in my post. For casual players who log on every couple of days and milk a little here and there from their corp run a couple of sites and then log off do not have the appreciation of the financial commitment running a POS in WH. I play 4 toons over 60 hours per week so moving back to empire is not a cowardly act as you seem to infer but purely my desire to play EVE .
If you doubt the costs of running a POS then check out this site
http://eve.1019.net/pos/

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.09.01 10:12:00 - [8]
 

Never earned as much money in EVE then in w-space. But i won't tell you how... it is to obvious, but people often have to much tears in their eyes to see the ISK, because of all that whining.

Terro Deagas
Double-Down
Demolition Notice
Posted - 2010.09.01 11:01:00 - [9]
 

I like them

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.01 11:03:00 - [10]
 


Forget the rest, farm melted nano ribbons using a T3 Cruiser which seems to have a hidden bonus for ancient salvage.

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.09.01 11:24:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Vilgan Mazran on 01/09/2010 11:24:45
If you are trying to do stuff in your own wormhole only, then you are not doing it correctly. Find a wormhole system with a static to the class you want, then farm that.

Also, isk/hour in w-space blows the snot out of highsec carebearing

Gas mining = 20 to 120 mil isk per hour per character and requires almost no skills and a very cheap ship. Its also doable afk if you don't mind getting ganked (hint: alts w/ no implants). I used to gas mine afk while making dinner and such a lot. Was kind of cool to check the keyboard every 30 minutes and make 200M-400M/hour with 4 accounts.

Ore mining = infinite a/b/c/m, if you are farming your static. Just run it back to your main system via iteron until your hole goes crit, then go to another hole. If you'll be doing it for a few hours, set up a temporary small pos for a boosting orca. Also, store your ore in an x-large ship assembly or 2. It has 18.5M storage instead of whatever a corp hangar has and you'll have a lot more time to refine it.

Combat sites = awesome isk and a lot more interesting than missions or mining. Solo in C3, duo in c4, more in c5/c6. I make about 100M/hour/character in C3 sites (higher is likely possible, I've heard many people claim 200M). I know in c6 sites 100M-300M per hour per character is pretty easy and consistent. You will typically need more people to do it, but doing stuff with others makes the game more fun anyway imo. Also possible to multibox but requires a few accounts with decent skills. 200M/hour/character when boxing is a fairly standard amount.

Then you can always do other things too. Run some lowsec or nullsec plexes. Look for pvp. Etc. Also, its not like logistics is hard if you are living in a c3. just wait for a highsec to open and bring in what you need ;P There are some reasons (I guess) to not live in w-space, but I think this is the first time I've heard "lack of income" as a reason :P

Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.01 11:50:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 11:51:29
My complaint was not so much lack of income but more lack of something to do. My only opening at the moment gives me no opportunity to leave except by pod and all the sites are either beyond my expertise or nonexistent. I think that grav or ladar sites should be like wormholes. There should always be one. The main reason I posted was through boredom and not being able to do anything constructive in the game. Even setting PI to 30 mins doesn't fill the gap Confused

Iree
Posted - 2010.09.01 12:11:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Dardoign
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 11:51:29
My complaint was not so much lack of income but more lack of something to do. My only opening at the moment gives me no opportunity to leave except by pod and all the sites are either beyond my expertise or nonexistent. I think that grav or ladar sites should be like wormholes. There should always be one. The main reason I posted was through boredom and not being able to do anything constructive in the game. Even setting PI to 30 mins doesn't fill the gap Confused


I'm going to guess you live in either a class 1 or 2 WH and if im right in that then all i can tell you is that you should not be living in either of those class's. They are the absolute bottom of the rack both literally and monetarily speaking.

If you want something to do then i highly suggest training Tech 3 ships (it really doesn't take very long) and then go and find yourself a WH with a static to a class 3.

The benefits come in longer chains of WH's to explore, more money to be made and generally a higher likelyhood of pvp being found. It does take more scanning but frankly if you hate scanning then dont live in WH's.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.09.01 12:17:00 - [14]
 

Faction standings don't effect you in low sec, and tbh complaining about the high sec effects is stupid since they're consequences of your own actions.

SO go exploring / pvp'ing in low sec when there's nothing to do in your wormhole.

Mallikanth
Posted - 2010.09.01 12:35:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dardoign
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 11:51:29
My complaint was not so much lack of income but more lack of something to do. My only opening at the moment gives me no opportunity to leave except by pod and all the sites are either beyond my expertise or nonexistent. I think that grav or ladar sites should be like wormholes. There should always be one. The main reason I posted was through boredom and not being able to do anything constructive in the game. Even setting PI to 30 mins doesn't fill the gap Confused


A player of your wealth and with presumably four accounts, can't find anything to do?
You need a break from the game to build up your appetite for it again.
You want constant sites to mine? Follow what you have previously mentioned you're going to do and go to back Empire.

I wish you luck. ugh

Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.01 12:41:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 12:43:09
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Faction standings don't effect you in low sec, and tbh complaining about the high sec effects is stupid since they're consequences of your own actions.

SO go exploring / pvp'ing in low sec when there's nothing to do in your wormhole.


Unlike gankers, it was running missions in highsec what gave me bad standings for 2 factions. Not being a complete and total ***hole. At the time I never realised that there would be consequences that would influence my game. I don't PvP, it's just plain nasty and conflicts with my morality. In almost 2 years and with 4 toons for much of that time I can honestly say I have never killed anyone. I don't like to bring bad kharma on my fellow players.
I repeat I am in a C3 wormhole with a static lowsec opening. Have a nice day.Rolling Eyes

Tramlaw Trub
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.09.01 13:09:00 - [17]
 

Sorry to hear that you aren't enjoying your time in w-space. If you need assistance in relocating your assets or help with your logistics, please feel free to contact me or a member of my corporation for a quote.

Mella Elcus
Posted - 2010.09.01 13:14:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dardoign
Crystals for ABC are very expensive too so would basic strip miner 1ís be preferred?
The cost of them obviously covers the extra yield gained from using them?, or if you mean they would be expensive to lose then you should consider getting out of that 1b clone first.

Originally by: Dardoign
The ones that can be soloed are really not worth the effort and the ones that need a fleet, by the time you add up all the ammo and divide the spoils you might as well have run some level 4íor 5í missions.

There are no C3 sites that require a fleet.

Originally by: Dardoign
[...] you are stuck waiting for another spawn which maybe days away.

What kind of static do you have? Because you need a static C2/C3 so you get new sites every day (or as often as you bother crashing it).

So anyway, to answer your question:
Originally by: Dardoign
Are wormholes anything but a waste of time and effort?

They are if you're doing it wrong.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.09.01 17:59:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 01/09/2010 18:00:16
Originally by: Dardoign
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 12:43:09
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Faction standings don't effect you in low sec, and tbh complaining about the high sec effects is stupid since they're consequences of your own actions.

So go exploring/ pvp'ing in low sec when there's nothing to do in your wormhole.


Unlike gankers, it was running missions in highsec what gave me bad standings for 2 factions. Not being a complete and total ***hole. At the time I never realised that there would be consequences that would influence my game. I don't PvP, it's just plain nasty and conflicts with my morality. In almost 2 years and with 4 toons for much of that time I can honestly say I have never killed anyone. I don't like to bring bad kharma on my fellow players.
I repeat I am in a C3 wormhole with a static lowsec opening. Have a nice day.Rolling Eyes
a) Bolded the important bit, I lived in a C3 with a static and didn't PvP at the time, I went probing around low sec for exploration sites and never lost a ship while doing so.

b) Large quantities of players enjoy PvP, so calling that ganking is plain rude. Funny how fighting in a computer game gives you bad kharma but insulting people in real life who're trying to give you some helpful advice doesn't.

What you really mean is that while hiding behind a noob alt you feel it's easy enough to act like a big man.

Sinister Dextor
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:04:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Sinister Dextor on 01/09/2010 18:05:47
Skimmed the walls of text, but whats the 'alien low sec' stuff, faction standing means **** all in low sec.

EDIT What Dodgy Past said ^.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:09:00 - [21]
 

lol @ 30m per hour Laughing

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:27:00 - [22]
 

I am afraid to give a WH a try...

But the OP mines in high sec and doubts WH is a way to make steady long term profit.

By the simple law of economics - you got to be first to rip the highest profit off. Then when the massive crowd moves in you need to make profit on their mistakes. Then you need to sell all your assets for decent money. When the project becomes cheap/not profitable you got to move in and acquire a share in the market.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:51:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 01/09/2010 18:51:53

Came looking for "worms" and "holes"...left disappointed. Crying or Very sad

...did this rather than read WALL...O...TEXT.


Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.09.01 19:02:00 - [24]
 

The OP lacks skill and imagination. Also the ability to play well with other. Do not get me going on his lack of wormhole-fu. That is all.

(I've spent over a year in wormhole space all told and trust me - making isk is not an issue there IF you know what your doing - ze OP.... he does not)

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.01 19:12:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Dardoign
Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 11:51:29
My complaint was not so much lack of income but more lack of something to do. My only opening at the moment gives me no opportunity to leave except by pod and all the sites are either beyond my expertise or nonexistent. I think that grav or ladar sites should be like wormholes. There should always be one. The main reason I posted was through boredom and not being able to do anything constructive in the game. Even setting PI to 30 mins doesn't fill the gap Confused

The great and powerful Madam Alara shale now predict your very future!

I see... I see... that... my buy order was filled, ok back to it.

You will farm lvl 4's till your bored to tears, you will then place all your loot and salvage in a untanked hauler and AFK auto-pilot to Jita. You will return to find a pod and a multi billion loss mail. Then Rage Quit on the forums well blaming gankers for your stupidity, and GB2WOW!

This reading will be 25million isk.

Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.01 20:46:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 01/09/2010 20:50:04
Originally by: Letrange
The OP lacks skill and imagination. Also the ability to play well with other. Do not get me going on his lack of wormhole-fu. That is all.

(I've spent over a year in wormhole space all told and trust me - making isk is not an issue there IF you know what your doing - ze OP.... he does not)


Living in a WH for 12 months depicts a very isolated existence, who don't play well with others?. The point that seems to be missed is that when playing 4 toons for 8 hours per day and 16 on weekends the sites vanish quickly.
As for making money out of wormholes IMOH the best way to do it is install a scanning alt in system fill it with PI and every time it has a high sec opening nip in with a few cranes or whatever and empty it. Sitting in there with nothing but one wormhole exit is not my thing. Can't even play the markets.
I may be doing it wrong as some suggest perhaps the fit on my Tengu is wrong. Any suggestions?

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.09.01 20:49:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dardoign
Originally by: Letrange
The OP lacks skill and imagination. Also the ability to play well with other. Do not get me going on his lack of wormhole-fu. That is all.

(I've spent over a year in wormhole space all told and trust me - making isk is not an issue there IF you know what your doing - ze OP.... he does not)


Living in a WH for 12 months depicts a very isolated existence, who don't play well with others?. The point that seems to be missed is that when playing 4 toons for 8 hours per day and 16 on weekends the sites vanish quickly.
As for making money out of wormholes IMOH the best way to do it is install a scanning alt in system fill it with PI and every time it has a high sec opening nip in with a few cranes or whatever and empty it. Sitting in there with nothing but one wormhole exit is not my thing. Can't even play the markets.

Wormhole space isn't isolated if you bring friends... Wink

PI profits, although better in nullsec, still aren't quite as good as the sites..

Lazarann
Ideal Machine
Posted - 2010.09.01 21:06:00 - [28]
 

Your wall of text needs a tl;dr version.

I've lived in low sec with my corp and roamed around finding C3's. We'd go in, run sites for a few hours, and leave. This was good money but got annoying spending tons of time finding the WH's.

Twice, we've moved into a C5 for a month straight. Two carriers (one the first time), a freighter, battleships, salvagers, and covops. It was a fun break and we made boatloads of isk. Each time we had a static C4 we could always use but the system we lived in always had plenty of sites as well. The second time, we also brought mining ships to get as much isk as possible out of the system.

In the C5's, we did ops twice a week (three times per week towards the end of the month) and made about 10b to be divided among us. We could easily make 700m - 1b in a few hours. Good luck doing that elsewhere. Now sure, that's divided among us, but we all still came out with a lot of isk, and WH's are far more interesting than lvl 4's or something.

Dardoign
Posted - 2010.09.02 02:52:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Dardoign on 02/09/2010 02:53:43
Edited by: Dardoign on 02/09/2010 02:53:10
Sorry for the wall of text as it has been refered to several times. This was my first post and I was unaware of the conventions on here. In future I will insert pictures and keep the words to less than 6 letters. "Run Spot run. See spot run" etc.
It was obvious fom many of the replies that some posters were unable to, or had not fully understood my post.
Thanks anyway. Cool

Musical Fist
Gallente
NAP Coalition
Posted - 2010.09.02 03:22:00 - [30]
 

TLDR

WH - Nice balance of risk / reward, you can make alot of decent ISK in there and have some decent small scale pvp, no local and no super caps make it a unique pvp environment and I guess pve since sleepers are OP (except to tengus)

Lowsec - Gatecamps and station camping, not all that great but can be fun depending on where you go

Highsec aka 0.0 - This is the place you go if you want to rat / pve, nothing really happens here and when it does lag wins the fight all the time anyway, best to avoid this space are you will most likely bore yourself to death.

Empire - This is where people do missions, get scammed, wardec and gank people, more has happened today in Empire than 1 year in 0.0

So there you have it, if you like pvp I say pick WHs but start with lowsec and if you want pve and ISK making pick 0.0


 

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