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EVEcitizen2119278
Posted - 2010.08.31 03:10:00 - [1]
 

Let's have a discussion about learning skills... I started a thread on it over 4 months ago in F&I, see here

I got flamed for a bit and the views on learning skills were mixed. But, let's admit it. Learning skills are a problem. I have fun on my alt with a fully t2 fit rupture these days that took 3 months to train for(not including learning) and can take on characters who have played for a year or more. Skills aren't the problem. What was a problem was the fact that I had to spend my entire trial period with my alt (21 days) training learning skills.

Now, the usual responses I hear to this are "EVE rewards me for having a brain / patience", "I had to do it, they should too" or something similar. Let's clarify. EVE is not a complex or hard to understand game, it's actually pretty easy and starting players with people telling them they should spend the first 3 weeks doing nothing but watching a skill queue tick by is boring.

I've had about 5 friends try and give up on eve because guess what... they wanted to PLAY the game, I do however have 3 friends who do play the game... that means that about 63% of people who try eve give up on the trial and they are intelligent and patient, they just didn't want to ship spin like us.

So, I won't rant any longer, but it's about time that we dropped this mentality of "I done it, so should they" and started to actually form a decent request to CCP to remove learning skills.

P.S: Someone once said that CCP said learning skills were impossible to remove. Well, here's quote from fan-fest by a dev:

Quote:
Anything is possible with code


Maybe you don't want to commit the resources yet, so maybe a CSM member should bring it up and get it done in 17 months.


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.31 03:17:00 - [2]
 

Just a suggestion: folks should try not to be stupid.
You don't want to train learning skills and would prefer to train other skills instead?
Rumor has it that in the next patch, CCP won't send a thug with a gun to stand behind you and force you to queue up learning skills.

True story.

Alas, that patch has not yet deployed and we are forced, yes forced to train learning skills. It is sad.

EVEcitizen2119278
Posted - 2010.08.31 03:26:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Just a suggestion: folks should try not to be stupid.
You don't want to train learning skills and would prefer to train other skills instead?
Rumor has it that in the next patch, CCP won't send a thug with a gun to stand behind you and force you to queue up learning skills.

True story.

Alas, that patch has not yet deployed and we are forced, yes forced to train learning skills. It is sad.


I really don't need to explain the difference between 7 months training time and 3 months training time. Yes, I am exaggerating. But that's only so I can imagine you in this crowd.

Bella Yar
Posted - 2010.08.31 03:28:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: EVEcitizen2119278
that means that about 63% of people who try eve give up on the trial and they are intelligent and patient, they just didn't want to ship spin like us.



the Science! is settled!

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:02:00 - [5]
 

I don' think there is any horse left to beat in this bloody mess?

Corbeau Lenoir
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: EVEcitizen2119278
But, let's admit it. Learning skills are a problem.

No, they are not.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:39:00 - [7]
 

Not our fault that you thought putting the last point into every learning skill (80-100 days or so of those 4 months of yours) for a 2% or so cumulative bonus to training speed was a good deal.

Congrats on failing at basic economics, though.

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:59:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: EVEcitizen2119278
But, let's admit it. Learning skills are I'm a problem.

Oh, yah, I already know. Eve could be much better without you and your buddies.

Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2010.08.31 05:06:00 - [9]
 

I have an idea. People should do what I did and play what they can fly as they train! Essy peasy lemon squeezey.

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.08.31 05:18:00 - [10]
 

Every time a learning skills threads falls off the first page of general discussion, we can always assume that another will take it's place within a few days. ;)

Tabitha Gnillort
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:11:00 - [11]
 

Look, I'm with you; anyone who thinks learning skills actually add something to the game is obviously mentally impaired.
But c'mon, it's well past time to suck it up and move on. CCP have made it crystal clear for years that they just aren't interested in hearing it.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:22:00 - [12]
 

ccp should only remove learning skills if they keep all the training the same length of time,
no better implants [or OK make +6 and +7's available but needing the advanced cyber skills]
cyber 5 with no learnings is going to hurt

so making BS 5 90 days or so ..

basically
HTFU

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:24:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tabitha Gnillort
Look, I'm with you; anyone who thinks learning skills actually add something to the game is obviously mentally impaired.
But c'mon, it's well past time to suck it up and move on. CCP have made it crystal clear for years that they just aren't interested in hearing it.


They're obviously griefing you so there is a +1

Anal retentive "i am wasting my optimal advancement in the game should I play for over 6 months if I don't spend 45 days trainign now.
Devil-may-care dude : who the f knows whre I'll be in 6 months... i'll plan to get me having the most fun in the next 3 weeks and take in a few months segements from there and see how it goes.


Anal retentive is torn to mental peices from the hobsons choice
devil may care guy is having fun and knows having fun in the game has very little to do with relative skills and implies that if he'd started the game a few weeks earlier he'd have been better-off.

Benefit to the game... grief to the anal-retentives and a big opening reminder that its not the destination but the Journey...

Natalie Caladan
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:26:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 31/08/2010 09:27:31
-------------
(originally posted by Stoicfaux)
Remove Learning Skills Arguments:
[] they're not fun because they don't provide any direct benefits (they don't affect fitting, flying, trading, etc.)
[] they're boring to train, they're a needless grind
[] a new character needs to train them sooner than later
[] the two free remaps and accelerated training bonus make it even more important/beneficial for a newbie to train learning skills as high as possible for the first month+
[] combined with the remaps and training bonus, the learning skills are too front loaded, meaning, that instead of a gradual progression in pain/benefits, the learning skills require a lot of pain immediately followed by huge benefits later.
[] because of the previous, the learning skills are newbie unfriendly and make for a bad first impression for new Eve players. (They drive new players away.)
[] they make creating alts tedious.
[] everyone trains them (because they're "mandatory,) so everyone has them, so why not just start newbies with them?
[] CCP stated that the learning skills were a mistake
[] Vets don't lose anything: skill points will be refunded
[] Vets don't lose an advantage: new characters still can't catch up to vets
[] New skills have been added, but the learning rate hasn't increased
[] The Advanced Learning skillbooks cost five million apiece which is prohibitive for most new players. That five million could be better spend on fun stuff (ships, modules, trading, skillbooks for "real" skills, etc..)
[] It's better to create a throwaway character to create a specialized mission runner in order to generate the money for Advanced learning skill books to train the learning skills on a second character (on the same account) for a month until the new character surpasses the throwaway character, which is a "stupid" game design.

Summary: they're not fun, they're a needless but essential grind, being "forced" to fly a newbie frigate for a month is a stupid way to introduce the game

Don't Give Everyone/Don't Remove Learning Skills Arguments:
[] people shouldn't get something for nothing
[] it would dumb down the game
[] the learning skills differentiate characters
[] the learning skills separate the wheat from the chaff, aka "if you can't hack the learning skills, you shouldn't be playing Eve".
[] you don't have to train them
[] you don't have to train them all at once
[] I suffered through them, why should newbies get a free pass?
[] Eve is hyper-competitive: Why should I surrender an advantage to other people?
[] Eve is hyper-competitive: I already have max learning skills. What's in it for me? How does giving everyone the learning skills help me?
[] Slippery Slope: What's next? Newbies get Frigate V or Engineering V for free?
[] Advanced learning skillbooks are expensive, it's not like a new player afford to train the Advanced learning skills for the first month of life, which means that CCP doesn't expect you to spend your first month+ training the learning skills..
[] What about alternatives? Do away entirely with learning skills, give newbies some of the learning skills instead of all of them, make learning skills prerequisites to other skills, grant learning skills as tutorial rewards, etc..

Summary: they aren't broken, getting stuff for free is bad, Eve is a cold hard game that rewards patience and self-discipline/this isn't WoW.

Tabitha Gnillort
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:36:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Stuff


Nice try bro, u almost made me mad. Wink

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:38:00 - [16]
 

Natalie.. once again my argument is conveniently left off.

Hazing anal retentive people is high pleasure... or any other sort of perfectionist.. going messing up a narcisistic person's hair...etc

and its not griefing.. its doing them a favor.. its getting them to losen up....

Hakuna Matata! What a wonderful phrase

Hakuna Matata! Ain't no passing craze

It means no worries for the rest of your days

It's our problem-free philosophy

Hakuna Matata!

Gareth Angel
Gallente
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2010.08.31 09:55:00 - [17]
 

Well... to be honest: I think when you start to play, you'll do fine without the learning skills. Optimize some frig skills, slowly train towards your first cruiser (or to som etrade or industry, whatever you fancy), and have some fun. It's quite possible.

Then after a while, when you decide you like the game, consider training some learning skills. Especially if you have decided you will be playing the game for some time.

Or: mix the learning skills in between the other skills you'd like to train. Not too much will be lost in the end.

I trained the basics to level 4 first, when I started playing (advanced learning skills weren't even there yet), which helped me on the long run. Later, when I was a bit more settled in the game, I added the fifth level, and when the advanced learners came out, I trained them to level 4 right away.

But it never felt like mandatory to me.

Mike TheMiner
Posted - 2010.08.31 10:45:00 - [18]
 

If you told your friends to just train learning skills, then its you to blame for them not playing, not CCP.
Anyone with half a brain can figure out how to mix in other usefull skills while training learning skills in order to actually play the game during the first few weeks.
If people choose to only train learning skills then complain they cant do anything, thats their loss.

Elijah Mohammed
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.08.31 10:49:00 - [19]
 

learning learning skills is just a measure of your devotion to eve.
so, go learning something already and come back in 3 months to train other stuff.


heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Elijah Mohammed
learning learning skills is just a measure of your devotion to eve.
so, go learning something already and come back in 3 months to train other stuff.




very silly idea, pay for three months and dont even play ??
you dont really need that many skills to play, just learn a few you need for basic combat/salvage for the first few days then train Learning when you can fly a ship and do what you want to do.

Natalie Caladan
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:19:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Natalie.. once again my argument is conveniently left off.


So sorry, was just quoting a comprehensive list of arguments as we see the same ones over and over again in the various threads.

Originally by: heheheh
very silly idea, pay for three months and dont even play ??


Hm - didn't one of the devs say in an interview that when he started playing EVE he played CS for 2 months while his 2 accounts were training learning skills in the meantime?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:22:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Natalie Caladan
Hm - didn't one of the devs say in an interview that when he started playing EVE he played CS for 2 months while his 2 accounts were training learning skills in the meantime?
Yes, Soundwave… he was promised a spanking by Eris for that.

…not entirely sure whether that counts as punishment or not. Razz

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:49:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Arkanor on 31/08/2010 11:52:18
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero

Alas, that patch has not yet deployed and we are forced, yes forced to train learning skills. It is sad.


We're forced to train learning skills in the same manner that you are forced to fit medium weapons on a battlecruiser, or capital modules on a capital ship.

Sure, you can take it a step down if you want to be completely ****ed. Learning skills are POOR DESIGN, plain and simple, and are made required by the sheer fact that everyone does them. There is absolutely nothing that it adds to the game, besides an extra month of not accomplishing anything (yeah I said it). I wouldn't mind their removal with NO compensation (and I'm 5/4 on all of them, well, except CHA).

My Postman
Posted - 2010.08.31 14:18:00 - [24]
 

I can smell a Xenuria´s alt....

Look at Skills board: "95 Days 47 h before learning skills" and "2 more years than i can play eve",

where ship spinning in station is mandatory for 3 months.

OP (Xenuria or not): NO! Look at those treads for detailed information if wanted.

Corozan Aspinall
Perkone
Posted - 2010.08.31 14:27:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Anal retentive is torn to mental peices from the hobsons choice devil may care guy is having fun and knows having fun in the game has very little to do with relative skills and implies that if he'd started the game a few weeks earlier he'd have been better-off. Benefit to the game... grief to the anal-retentives and a big opening reminder that its not the destination but the Journey...


Are you running for CSM next time? Got my vote. Very Happy

QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:51:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: QT McWhiskers on 31/08/2010 18:59:14

If enough people *****, CCP will step in and do something.

Now the thing everyone here needs to realize, no matter what the decision is, you will get over it.

If they decide to take them out of the game and reinburse people for skillpoints spent and give everyone a+10 mod to all stats, you will spend the 2-6 mil SP on whatever you are training, happily I might add, and go on about your eve business. Then... You will get over it.

If they leave them in the game and tell the public to HTFU, new players will unhappily train them... and get over it.

If they make it to where you get a permanent 100% bonus as a reward for getting all learning skills to 5... You will get over it older players... Trust me. (Think about your year long skill plan. Now think about it cut in half.)

I have this to say to the older players. Just because you suffered through the learning skills, does not mean that every new player has to too. If they removed the learning skills, more new people would stay in the game. For those who say "I trained them to 5 for 3 months and you should have to too." I say... GO **** yourselves.

To newer players, I have this to say. HTFU. Train them. Cmon take them all to 4. Takes less than two weeks, and can be done while you are training up frig skills. You can get to assault frigs at the end of your 21 day trial, and have all level 4 learning skills. And for gods sake, do not skimp on the chr skills. You will miss them later when you are training for a command ship.

CUrrently, the learning skills are still in the game. So newer players need to train them and get over it. But... you dont have to take them all to 5. Tier 1 to 5 and tier 2 to 4 is perfectly fine.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:56:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: QT McWhiskers
"I trained them for 3 months and you should have to too." I say... GO **** yourselves.

Cmon take them all to 4. Takes less than two weeks,


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:57:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: QT McWhiskers on 31/08/2010 18:59:37
Contradictory aint it? (fixed)

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:01:00 - [29]
 

A reminder of why learning skill are there, and why not just have a bonus to skill training time.

Reason: Alt's.
Setup 3 alts, one with int/mem max, one with per/wil max, one with i dunno, whatever strike you.

Train only industry skills on the int/mem or ship skills on the per/wil char.

Congratulations, you just made stats irrelevant, commence whining to have them all set to max.

This is unfeasible on the current system because of the learning skill taking a chunk of time out.


HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:11:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Mike TheMiner
If you told your friends to just train learning skills, then its you to blame for them not playing, not CCP.
Anyone with half a brain can figure out how to mix in other usefull skills while training learning skills in order to actually play the game during the first few weeks.
If people choose to only train learning skills then complain they cant do anything, thats their loss.


Hes got a good point..although I have to say that anyone who plans to play eve longer..and is a gamer..would see the point in doing them and getting it over with.I agree in that case that it can turn people off to the game.A few people I tried to bring in..left just because they had to learn the ship skills..and saw the long wait ahead of them to fly the ships they saw in game.So learning was the cherry on top for them.To sum it up..eve is not for everyone..and is already hard to get into..learning makes it harder.I think eve would be fine without them and I stil dont have them all to 5.Dont think i will do them either.


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