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Atsuko Yamamoto
Spartan Shipyards
Posted - 2010.08.30 10:04:00 - [1]
 

Seems the use of them draws the super carriers out of the woodwork. I see less and less of them used in their original capacity. Has the carrier/super carrier replaced it?

And if so, what are dreads relegated to?

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.08.30 12:21:00 - [2]
 

Sadly 0.0 fleet warefare has gotten to the point that which ever fleet has the most supercarriers wins. As well as the lagg monster playing an effect in the out come of the battle.

So yes Dreads have fallen to the way side in 0.0 capital battles. Titans can one shot dreads unless you are willing to have no rep and the expensive high grade slave sets. With lagg having a huge part in fleet ware fare 20 super carriers can infact kill a fleet of 50+ dreads in little to no time given the circumstances.

Tellahane
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:15:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Tellahane on 30/08/2010 13:15:41
Given a properly fitted dread probably costs about 2.6bilish and a same for a super carrier is probably between 17-20bil, it stands to reason that the super carrier should be able to kill 4-5 dreads pretty easily. However if there are 5 dreads on one super carrier it should be possible to take out the super carrier.

The one thing I would like to see is siege tweaked more, I mean triage gets same defensive bonuses as siege, so tank is the same, then for triage you get the reduced cycles to speed up the reps, then you get an increase in reps on top of that, siege you pretty much only get an increase in damage, and a slower lock time, whereas triage gets a faster lock time. It would be nice if while in siege it also increased your resists, so you are essentially burst tanking on limited amount of fuel so that you could withstand a barrage from a super carrier but not for as long as a super carrier could easily withstand a barrage from dreadnaughts as they have tons more room for stront then a dread ever will.

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:17:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Atsuko Yamamoto

And if so, what are dreads relegated to?


They're now relegated to killing POSes or baiting anemy SCs/titans, so you could hotdrop them with your own SCs and titans. Of course everyone is prepared for that, so now you're hotdropped. Fortunatelly it was a ruse to draw them out of woodrock, and your friends are hotdroping th... oh **** node just died.

ThePurpleTurtle
High Flyers
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.30 13:45:00 - [5]
 

Forgive me if I'm wrong since I haven't checked in a while, but with the addition of fighter bombers, the super carrier's ability to use triage modules was removed? And instead an increased amount of hitpoints added? Making the comparison between siege and triage totally useless for the comparison between SCs and Dreads. However, if that mechanic change had not been present, I am fairly certain that you would have a valid point given the changes made to the triage module.

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.08.30 14:28:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tellahane
Edited by: Tellahane on 30/08/2010 13:15:41
However if there are 5 dreads on one super carrier it should be possible to take out the super carrier.




In what world are you dreaming in. No large alliance would field a super carrier against dreads alone. Dreads are expendable; Super Carriers on the other hand are not. Depending on the super carrier it will have atleast 60 mill EHP and put out 3-4x the ammount of DPS a Dread can put out. IF there is lagg the fighter bombers will still be doing that 3-4x DPS while your dreads are probebly having moduel lagg and you your self will have to manually cycle guns.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.08.30 15:00:00 - [7]
 

He was talking about what they should be able to do, not what they can do. SC's are very much the ultimate weapon atm. Even in low sec they are getting pretty common. It's a sign they should probably be nerfed or have their cost greatly increased.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.30 15:15:00 - [8]
 

Dreads can spit out ~6k dps (instantly too) and alot more alpha all for 1.5 bills.

SC's can spit out about 10k dps and an unknown alpha for 15+bill.

yea......

thread over
______________________________________________

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.30 15:23:00 - [9]
 

The volley damage for supers is around 120k with max skills and no DCU's. 150k for Nyx.

Also, my Aeon is able to tank 50 revelations for around 6mins Laughing

Captain Merkin
Minmatar
Debitum Naturae
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2010.08.30 15:43:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ap0ll0n
The volley damage for supers is around 120k with max skills and no DCU's. 150k for Nyx.

Also, my Aeon is able to tank 50 revelations for around 6mins Laughing


When you say Tank 50 dreads... (300,000dps according to above poster)

Do you mean actively repairing damage done or just buffer slowly being rotted away?

I dont fly captials and have little ambition to get in one due to the fact most I see are dead and gone a few weeks later due to being insta popped by some other captial whilst achieving bugger all in the process.

Still remember my first engagement with a dread years ago, was epic fun and a greatly satisfying kill with our small ships.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.08.30 16:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Atsuko Yamamoto
Seems the use of them draws the super carriers out of the woodwork. I see less and less of them used in their original capacity. Has the carrier/super carrier replaced it?

And if so, what are dreads relegated to?


Dreads have gone the way of the fleet battleship.

Before capitals were introduced the fleet battleship was the mainstay of any 0.0 fleet, supported by a support fleet of sub-bs ships.

After capitals were introduced fleet battleships got replaced as the upper-tier ship in a 0.0 fleet to a upper-midsegment tier (sub-capital).

Dreads and carriers became the new workhorses of 0.0 fleets with titans as 'uberweapon' ships while motherships were simply not worth using.

Now with the titan doomsday rebalance (nerf) and super-carrier buff basically titans+super-carriers have become the upper-tier mainstay segment of 0.0 fleets, with dreads and carriers redelegated to the upper-midsegment, reducing their battlefield supremacy and causing their win/loss ratio to plummet.

This of course has all got to do with the effect of scarcity, or rather the constant diminishing of it.
While players continue to get more skillpoints over time and become richer capitals and super-capitals are becoming less rare every day, until we will eventually come at the point where titans and supercarriers have become so regular the usefullness of dreads and carriers is completely gone as these are the best prey to said supercaps, we will see more fleets consisting of mere supercapitals and sub-capitals with a distinct absence of regular capitals.

While carriers maintain their alternative usage scenarios (as hauler and POS/station repper) the dread will only ever be used as a station/POS shooter, but also in diminished numbers as they make prime targets for a supercapital hotdrop.

The effects we are seeing here are just a general progression along skill and wealth of the eve playerbase.

The same effects have been constant throughout the lifetime of EVE Online right up to the very day of TQ going live for the first time.
(those players must have felt the exact same way upon seeing the first battleship in space as we felt during the introduction of titans)

gai luron
Posted - 2010.08.30 17:40:00 - [12]
 

Is there a way to destroy SCs without just using more of your own SCs ?

If no:
Do SCs get destroyed by other SCs -and thus limiting their number- or do such fleets just don't engage others for reasons such as numeric inferiority or lag ?

If 2nd choice:
Do dreads get raeped by aforementioned more and more common SCs ?

If yes, I fear these dreads are going the way of the dodo unless something is done about it.

Dawn Hammer
Amarr
High Flyers
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.30 18:04:00 - [13]
 

What we are experiencing is the potential dying off of what should be a mainstay among capital fleets. However, this change in dynamic can be countered by an aggressive overhaul of the dreadnaught, and even carrier classes. They need to be able to be viable on the field while maintaining expendability as much as possible in comparison with the super capitals. If this can accomplished, we should begin to see an amount of these ships similar to that of before, and thus, making 0.0 warfare that much more exciting for everyone.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.08.30 18:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dawn Hammer
What we are experiencing is the potential dying off of what should be a mainstay among capital fleets. However, this change in dynamic can be countered by an aggressive overhaul of the dreadnaught, and even carrier classes. They need to be able to be viable on the field while maintaining expendability as much as possible in comparison with the super capitals. If this can accomplished, we should begin to see an amount of these ships similar to that of before, and thus, making 0.0 warfare that much more exciting for everyone.


Adding the ability of dreads to actually hit sub-capital ships while in siege would greatly boost their combat usability and possibly make them worth their cost again, something similar could be done with carriers as well removing drone number cap on a carrier so the amount of drones you can dish out would only be limited by bandwidth for instance would make carriers viable anti-gang ships as they would now have the ability to properly dish out damage on any range of sub-capital ships.

These changes are of course just raw brainfarts and would require tweaking, but the general premise of making dreads and carriers more effective against sub-capital ships to boost their cost/efficiency is valid.

(The carrier bandwidth idea for instance might make carriers OP because who would send out 5 medium drones when you could put out 10 small drones which do exactly the same amount of dmg, but are faster, better tracking and greater in numbers)

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.30 18:56:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Captain Merkin
When you say Tank 50 dreads... (300,000dps according to above poster)

Do you mean actively repairing damage done or just buffer slowly being rotted away?

I dont fly captials and have little ambition to get in one due to the fact most I see are dead and gone a few weeks later due to being insta popped by some other captial whilst achieving bugger all in the process.

Still remember my first engagement with a dread years ago, was epic fun and a greatly satisfying kill with our small ships.


That would be the buffer only, as SC's doesn't have local reppers anymore, unless they are used for pve.

Also, to the people who says that dreads have no use anymore have no clue really. SC's can't shoot towers, and its not like every alliance can field 20+ SC's, and those who can, might not have the guts to do so. SC's are a big factor, but the titans are even more. Fighter bombers are still influenced by lag, so its not actualy 8k dps, however, the DD is not affected as much, so basically, if you can field 15-20 titans against a dread/carrier fleet of 50+, you win.

Tellahane
Posted - 2010.08.30 20:53:00 - [16]
 

There's a few things that could happen, first and foremost the cost of regular dreadnoughts, maybe even lower the skill requirements a little since its easier to get into a carrier then a dread anymore, as more people pick up remote repping skills anyway. Even the cost could come down a bit, increasing the number of dreads by making them easier to get into. Then give them an additional siege bonus that increases tracking and explosion velocity considerably, make it so they could even hit a moving battleship at 150m/s.

You would still need more tp's then practical for a dread to take on a battleship fleet let alone anything lower but allowing it to hit makes a difference on sc's. But I like the burst tanking too where once in siege they are really hard to break but are still limited by fuel, they eventually have to come out, but it might be long enough that if you had enough numbers(as it should be) you could compete against a super carrier.

The way I see it currently is this:
Dreadnaught->anti stationary structure
Carrier->small ship fleet warfare and logistics(fighters strong against battleships and up).
Super Carrier->Large fleet warfare, and logistics(fighter bombers powerful against structure and other cap's).
Titan->Strong against any cap, considerably more expensive, can't do anything against non-cap's(effectively).

The other option is more obvious but less likely and thats introduce yet another capitol ship, designed for electronic warfare. The biggest problem about carriers and super carriers is the superior spider tanking because of logistics, and dps on top of that(which should be one way or the other not both). The best counter to any spider tank is going to be electronic warfare. Create a version of a carrier or dreadnaught designed to deliver ecm/tp/web/damp/neut what have you based on each race. To do it effectively you either have to have a superiorly strong bonuses or since its a cap ship and we have seen the technology out there with super caps, do targetted area of effect electronic warfare. Throw out a tp system that will increase the sig radius of anything within 30km of the target by 100%. Ouch!, throw out a aoe ecm module, an area webifier. Of course you will have to wait 36 months to see this ship but it would discourage blobbing some and be a good counter to the super cap circle of death.

The only other option I've seen is make it so that you can't remote rep in a super carrier unless your in triage. That would help towards balance quite a bit I would think.

but thats just my random thoughts...

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.31 01:25:00 - [17]
 

Spidertanking supers won't work, they simply doesn't have the cap to sustain it.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.31 01:50:00 - [18]
 

Super Carriers cost ten times more than a dreadnaught. Most SC's are NOT alliance purchased.

All I have to say.

bareface
Task Force Zener
Posted - 2010.08.31 06:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Super Carriers cost ten times more than a dreadnaught. Most SC's are NOT alliance purchased.

All I have to say.


Battleships cost 20-50X more than a cruiser...yet just a few cruisers can easilly take on a battleship. I don't care how you fit them, a few dreads are no match for a SC. As things get more expensive, there should be diminishing returns on performance.

fkingfurious
Posted - 2010.08.31 14:01:00 - [20]
 

Dreads have one purpose these days and thats the initial reinforcement of a POS.

Dropped with no warning onto a tower a Dread fleet (20 of them can do it) will be able to reinforce the tower before any response can be mounted, and typically get it below half shield before anyone gets a chance to adjust the stront timer.

However, only the largest and richest alliances will consider using them on the second attack because they are too vulnerable when in siege mode.

For non POS attacks the fleet priority goes Titan/SC > Carrier > everything else. Carriers are still useful because of their spider tanking. Titans and Supers all have high resist buffer tanks and the repping generated by 50 odd Carriers makes them damned hard to break. Thats never gonna change. There are always gonna be people in carriers and they are always going to be wanted on fleet ops.

Dreads on the other will serve the single purpose and then be forgotten about.

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.31 17:39:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
Dreads have one purpose these days and thats the initial reinforcement of a POS.

Dropped with no warning onto a tower a Dread fleet (20 of them can do it) will be able to reinforce the tower before any response can be mounted, and typically get it below half shield before anyone gets a chance to adjust the stront timer.

However, only the largest and richest alliances will consider using them on the second attack because they are too vulnerable when in siege mode.

For non POS attacks the fleet priority goes Titan/SC > Carrier > everything else. Carriers are still useful because of their spider tanking. Titans and Supers all have high resist buffer tanks and the repping generated by 50 odd Carriers makes them damned hard to break. Thats never gonna change. There are always gonna be people in carriers and they are always going to be wanted on fleet ops.

Dreads on the other will serve the single purpose and then be forgotten about.


No, dreads are still wanted more than carriers. Carriers serve no purpose in a fleet fight, other than contributing with pittyfull dps, and lag. Dreads deliver good damage, carriers does not. I'd rather have 10 titans, 10 sc's and 50 dreads, than 10 titans, 10 sc's and 50 carriers.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.09.01 17:32:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: bareface
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Super Carriers cost ten times more than a dreadnaught. Most SC's are NOT alliance purchased.

All I have to say.


Battleships cost 20-50X more than a cruiser...yet just a few cruisers can easilly take on a battleship. I don't care how you fit them, a few dreads are no match for a SC. As things get more expensive, there should be diminishing returns on performance.


Close range dread 2 mil EHP/ 6000 dps
Supercarrier 45 mil EHP/8000 dps
SC kills dread in 250 seconds in that time dread does 1.5mil damage so if there is no repping SC dies to 8 dreads and 1 of them is left alive.
Doesn't look that bad, 8 dreads are worth about half price of SC, if insured loss is about 30-40% dread price. But if it's 20 SCs remrepping each other 160 dreads would probably die to them only killing one or two


 

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